53 replies to this topic

[MischiefSC]

I win 1.3 or more pugging if I'm in a "carry" mech. I win more in pug queue than group queue. Does group queue count for psr? Cuz when I drop group queue it's generally all of us in terribad, derping. CW is srsbsns and if I need cbills so is pug queue. Pt running and a 30% bonus mech you can churn 200-300k a match and pay dem billz.

I admit - the Tier system info has dissuaded me from running scrub builds in pug queue. Besides, I hadn't realized how long it's been since I pugged in carry mechs. It's more fun than derping. Mah Banshee! She carries.

[Lyoto Machida]

beerandasmoke, on 23 September 2015 - 03:59 PM, said:

Wins count a for a massive amount Mischief. Somebody had a vid of Sean Lang playing and he got a match score of 106 and still got a greenarrow on a win. He is a tier 1 player. It seems to be wins followed by damage dealt. If you get a loss then the average seems to be around at least 500+dmg dealt not too get the red arrow.

This really screws soloplayers who are at the mercy of their team while at the same time rewards people who run in large 8+groups. It looks as though a subpar player could be carried to tier1 just by being in a decent group of players who drop together. PSR is not a very good indicator of individual skill in my opinion.

Well, that subpar player better hope he doesn't get caught alone in the pug queue like a gangbanger on the street without his homies...

Though, the flip side of that is that people who pug all the time and play crap mechs can sandbag their skill level (if they're actually better than what their tier shows).

[InRev]

Deathlike, on 23 September 2015 - 02:03 PM, said:

PSR is actually just a grind indicator (based on the # of matches you play, assuming you win more than you use).

So, it doesn't really work as intended.

Source:
https://www.reddit.c..._to_settle_out/

Holy crap. 1,000 games minimum? That means veterans like myself who took a break around the time that PSR started being recorded will have at least 1,000 matches worth of seal-clubbing.

That's insane.

[beerandasmoke]

As far as I know group que counts for PSR as well. Longterm I see this as being a direct nerf to mediums and lights under the present system. They just cant put out the damage output that a heavy or assualt can. I fear with this new PSR rating we will see those ques shrink even further unfortunately. As bishop said we need a PSR for each individual mech and a baseline for avg matchscore per chassis too base PSR on. Much like WN8 in WOT. If you want to bring a Direwolf then fine but your expected matchscore should be very high. Same goes for a nonmeta chassis such as a commando or vindicator who would have a much lower expected matchscore to advance. Meet that requirement then you advance. Otherwise most players grinding tiers will just bring tier 1 metamechs with high damage output.

Edited by beerandasmoke, 23 September 2015 - 05:06 PM.

[Telmasa]

sycocys, on 23 September 2015 - 03:00 PM, said:

My experience has been that it definitely does not seem to affect both teams the grand majority of the time.
You'd think it would, but it simply does not - more often than not one side or the other gets a half a team of people that can't put up 100 damage and the other side gets a full team of people that put up a minimum of 250 each.
And either way you look at it, my PSR should be based upon MY performance alone, it shouldn't rely on the performance of 11 other people. If I can consistently put up the numbers that I do, while half the players MM puts on my team consistently put far worse numbers then I'm in the wrong bracket and should be working my way out instead of working my way to Tier 5 because people can't manage to get 100 damage in their 60+ alpha assault mechs.
Having other people so heavily influence my personal score is quite bothersome because all it ends up doing is keeping me away from the tier which would provide better competition.

I pointed this out in my OP that having better quality matchups =/= always having close games.
What that means for you is that players at your level have some bad games (i.e. low damage as you pointed out) often mixed in with decent ones - it's often a fact that players, rather than being consistent, have a roller coaster history of good games and bad games.

And no, PSR isn't just about you alone - it's used for seeing how well you fit into a team environment. This is where you & alot of other players have a misconception, I think, and it's why I suggested Paul do a PSA: what you're thinking PSR is, is what we would have if Solaris mode were here and we had a 1v1 ranking system.

PSR is not designed for that, it's designed for placing you on a team in public queue.

Zensei, on 23 September 2015 - 03:08 PM, said:

I cant help but to wonder how much spending has to do with this

I can guarantee you, the answer is "nothing". At least no more than any other aspect of the game has an influence.

Zainadin, on 23 September 2015 - 03:32 PM, said:

WRONG Damage is king in Match Score! and a light mech (except for the AH cheaters) can't do the damage to get 600+ damage a match.

Not true.
High Match Score is totally attainable by means aside from raw damage numbers. Yeah, you should be getting *some* damage in every match, but damage isn't the king...it's just the 'easiest' way.

And, I have played plenty light 'Mechs, and all of the ones I've mastered have had 600+ damage matches more times than I care to count. I can say without a doubt it's more to do with the pilot & playing to the particular 'Mech's strengths (and being cagey, as with all lights) than it does the 'Mech...if we're ignoring superquirks, anyway, which have mostly gone away.

InRev, on 23 September 2015 - 04:51 PM, said:

Holy crap. 1,000 games minimum? That means veterans like myself who took a break around the time that PSR started being recorded will have at least 1,000 matches worth of seal-clubbing.
That's insane.

Not exactly....

Your PSR will be evolving throughout that stretch of 1,000 games...it'd be ramping up the difficulty of the matches for you as you play. The faster you "club seals", the faster you'll get bumped up to more difficult games. There's no way it'd actually take 1,000 games if your performance was such that you could say you were "clubbing seals" that entire time.

beerandasmoke, on 23 September 2015 - 05:05 PM, said:

As far as I know group que counts for PSR as well. Longterm I see this as being a direct nerf to mediums and lights under the present system. They just cant put out the damage output that a heavy or assualt can. I fear with this new PSR rating we will see those ques shrink even further unfortunately. As bishop said we need a PSR for each individual mech and a baseline for avg matchscore per chassis too base PSR on. Much like WN8 in WOT. If you want to bring a Direwolf then fine but your expected matchscore should be very high. Same goes for a nonmeta chassis such as a commando or vindicator who would have a much lower expected matchscore to advance. Meet that requirement then you advance. Otherwise most players grinding tiers will just bring tier 1 metamechs with high damage output.

As I pointed out above, damage isn't king, and there's plenty that lights & mediums can do (that get applied to match score and thus PSR) that heavies and assaults usually can't.

The 'mech rebalance, when finished, will narrow those gaps that do exist.

And please, the last thing we need to do is mimic WoT. "WN8" and XVM has ruined that game in more ways than I care to describe right now - I've ranted plenty about it on those forums - and has any number of flaws.
More importantly, none of the XVM/WN8 system was designed for being used in a matchmaker system.

[sycocys]

I could handle people sometimes having bad games. The stuff I'm seeing isn't people on an off game, this is people that are far out of their league even in t4. Dropping with the same people match after match seeing them post the same performances match after match - not just an unlucky streak, its putting bad/inexperienced players alongside people that have experience and letting them drag everyone else down.

And there's no differentiation between bad player matching up against on the other team a same tier good player so quite often one team gets a lump of players that can't compete and the other gets a full team. If you have bad luck with the MM you end up on the bad side of that more often than not, and no matter how well you do your PSR is going down because these players couldn't carry themselves.

Edited by sycocys, 23 September 2015 - 07:17 PM.

[Kubernetes]

When, I look at my stats by mech, the few Lights I own have low damage per match... but they have way better W/L record than my overall average. I don't think it's just dumb luck--good Light play can positively impact your team beyond pure damage. The W/L ratio means that Lights have been a net plus to my PSR, despite the rather low damage numbers.

Edited by Kubernetes, 23 September 2015 - 07:25 PM.

[beerandasmoke]

Telmasa, on 23 September 2015 - 07:08 PM, said:

I pointed this out in my OP that having better quality matchups =/= always having close games.
What that means for you is that players at your level have some bad games (i.e. low damage as you pointed out) often mixed in with decent ones - it's often a fact that players, rather than being consistent, have a roller coaster history of good games and bad games.

And no, PSR isn't just about you alone - it's used for seeing how well you fit into a team environment. This is where you & alot of other players have a misconception, I think, and it's why I suggested Paul do a PSA: what you're thinking PSR is, is what we would have if Solaris mode were here and we had a 1v1 ranking system.

PSR is not designed for that, it's designed for placing you on a team in public queue.



I can guarantee you, the answer is "nothing". At least no more than any other aspect of the game has an influence.



Not true.
High Match Score is totally attainable by means aside from raw damage numbers. Yeah, you should be getting *some* damage in every match, but damage isn't the king...it's just the 'easiest' way.

And, I have played plenty light 'Mechs, and all of the ones I've mastered have had 600+ damage matches more times than I care to count. I can say without a doubt it's more to do with the pilot & playing to the particular 'Mech's strengths (and being cagey, as with all lights) than it does the 'Mech...if we're ignoring superquirks, anyway, which have mostly gone away.



Not exactly....

Your PSR will be evolving throughout that stretch of 1,000 games...it'd be ramping up the difficulty of the matches for you as you play. The faster you "club seals", the faster you'll get bumped up to more difficult games. There's no way it'd actually take 1,000 games if your performance was such that you could say you were "clubbing seals" that entire time.



As I pointed out above, damage isn't king, and there's plenty that lights & mediums can do (that get applied to match score and thus PSR) that heavies and assaults usually can't.

The 'mech rebalance, when finished, will narrow those gaps that do exist.

And please, the last thing we need to do is mimic WoT. "WN8" and XVM has ruined that game in more ways than I care to describe right now - I've ranted plenty about it on those forums - and has any number of flaws.
More importantly, none of the XVM/WN8 system was designed for being used in a matchmaker system.

So what you are saying is the PSR of a commando and a direwolf should be the same because a commando can do different things to improve matchscore that a direwolf cant? So scouting and targeting provide the same bonuses that dealing raw damage does? I think not.

What do you think the majority of the playerbase would choose if they were grinding tiers? An orion over a timber? Commando over a Cheetah? Vindicator over a Stormcrow? When winning and raw damage output are the main factors in matchscore then people will bring the best when it comes to advancing tiers.

A mech by mech baseline matchscore would do wonders to improve diversity. As it stands it looks as though you have to meet a baseline matchscore which is heavily based on damage if you dont win to keep from dropping in PSR. That means you bring high damage builds such as the streakcrow and UAC direwolf to meet that score. You bring a medium or light it will harder to achieve. The playerbase will follow the path of least resistance like it does in all games which means piloting heavies and assaults.

[Aggravated Assault Mech]

Unless the number of games played on an account before PSR introduction has no influence, the estimation on how long it takes to go up in tier is deeply incorrect. I've got like 800 games and I'm tier 2.

[Telmasa]

sycocys, on 23 September 2015 - 07:15 PM, said:

I could handle people sometimes having bad games. The stuff I'm seeing isn't people on an off game, this is people that are far out of their league even in t4. Dropping with the same people match after match seeing them post the same performances match after match - not just an unlucky streak, its putting bad/inexperienced players alongside people that have experience and letting them drag everyone else down.

And there's no differentiation between bad player matching up against on the other team a same tier good player so quite often one team gets a lump of players that can't compete and the other gets a full team. If you have bad luck with the MM you end up on the bad side of that more often than not, and no matter how well you do your PSR is going down because these players couldn't carry themselves.

Keep in mind that new players start off in the middle of tier 4. (I could mention this in the OP actually, come to think of it)

If two players are different in skill but currently are the same tier, then the system will balance itself out the more they play. The worse player will ostensibly decrease in PSR while the good player will at worst hover where he already is.

I'll repeat again, it's not about making sure matches are always close - that's just not possible, honestly, without the players intentionally setting it up. No matter what tier you go to, there's shut-out games, bad streaks, seeing the same players and so on. The answer is, to me, keep on trying. So far with PSR, in my experience, matches have been an absolute improvement over how matches felt before PSR.

[Telmasa]

beerandasmoke, on 23 September 2015 - 07:31 PM, said:

So what you are saying is the PSR of a commando and a direwolf should be the same because a commando can do different things to improve matchscore that a direwolf cant? So scouting and targeting provide the same bonuses that dealing raw damage does? I think not.

I'm saying PSR has nothing to do with 'Mech choice. It's an overall summary of ALL your games; if you're gonna play 5000 games in a Dire Wolf, suit yourself - I guarantee you there's a commando pilot out there who can keep up with you in tier.

Quote

What do you think the majority of the playerbase would choose if they were grinding tiers? An orion over a timber? Commando over a Cheetah? Vindicator over a Stormcrow? When winning and raw damage output are the main factors in matchscore then people will bring the best when it comes to advancing tiers.

That's not a question that players should even be asking about; grinding tiers isn't the point at all. You don't get anything special for being in one tier as opposed to another, and never will. That's not what PSR is for: as I stated in the OP, it is not a ladder ranking system.

Quote

A mech by mech baseline matchscore would do wonders to improve diversity. As it stands it looks as though you have to meet a baseline matchscore which is heavily based on damage if you dont win to keep from dropping in PSR. That means you bring high damage builds such as the streakcrow and UAC direwolf to meet that score. You bring a medium or light it will harder to achieve. The playerbase will follow the path of least resistance like it does in all games which means piloting heavies and assaults.

I've already described my perspective, so it shouldn't be a surprise I disagree with this. Yes, if you bring a medium or light there will be a baseline of damage, probably, but that's not the end-all/break-all of playing a light/medium 'Mech in the first place.

If 'Light mechs were just as much about doing damage as Assault 'mechs, everybody would just play Light 'Mechs. (and often have when quirks, ECM jesus boxes, or other things allowed them to damage on par with assaults).

MW:O is about far more than just getting raw damage numbers. If you don't recognize that, I don't think you recognize what Mechwarrior is.

[Kubernetes]

Telmasa, on 23 September 2015 - 07:38 PM, said:

Keep in mind that new players start off in the middle of tier 4. (I could mention this in the OP actually, come to think of it.

It's actually the high end of tier 4. I just started a new alt today. 20 matches in and I'm already almost tier 3.

[beerandasmoke]

Telmasa, on 23 September 2015 - 07:38 PM, said:

Keep in mind that new players start off in the middle of tier 4. (I could mention this in the OP actually, come to think of it)

If two players are different in skill but currently are the same tier, then the system will balance itself out the more they play. The worse player will ostensibly decrease in PSR while the good player will at worst hover where he already is.

I'll repeat again, it's not about making sure matches are always close - that's just not possible, honestly, without the players intentionally setting it up. No matter what tier you go to, there's shut-out games, bad streaks, seeing the same players and so on. The answer is, to me, keep on trying. So far with PSR, in my experience, matches have been an absolute improvement over how matches felt before PSR.

So what happens if the worse player joins a good group and plays in the groupque. Sean Lang got a matchscore of 106 with a 160dmg several assists and got a greenarrow at tier 1 on a win. A group could carry a lower tier player to tier1.

Telmasa, on 23 September 2015 - 07:45 PM, said:

I'm saying PSR has nothing to do with 'Mech choice. It's an overall summary of ALL your games; if you're gonna play 5000 games in a Dire Wolf, suit yourself - I guarantee you there's a commando pilot out there who can keep up with you in tier.



That's not a question that players should even be asking about; grinding tiers isn't the point at all. You don't get anything special for being in one tier as opposed to another, and never will. That's not what PSR is for: as I stated in the OP, it is not a ladder ranking system.



I've already described my perspective, so it shouldn't be a surprise I disagree with this. Yes, if you bring a medium or light there will be a baseline of damage, probably, but that's not the end-all/break-all of playing a light/medium 'Mech in the first place.

If 'Light mechs were just as much about doing damage as Assault 'mechs, everybody would just play Light 'Mechs. (and often have when quirks, ECM jesus boxes, or other things allowed them to damage on par with assaults).

MW:O is about far more than just getting raw damage numbers. If you don't recognize that, I don't think you recognize what Mechwarrior is.

If its not a ladder ranking system then why are they even bothering to show it? Because thats exactly what it is and people are going to want to advance their rank. Thats what your not seeming to grasp. The playerbase will want to advance and they will use the appropriate mechs and builds to do so quickly. This kills variety. Look at how the challenge went this weekend with everyone running full meta and high dmg builds. That is what this PSR encourages. Matchscore and winning is king and the playerbase will bring the mechs to give the best chance of meeting one or both.

Edited by beerandasmoke, 23 September 2015 - 08:00 PM.

[Telmasa]

beerandasmoke, on 23 September 2015 - 07:58 PM, said:

So what happens if the worse player joins a good group and plays in the groupque. Sean Lang got a matchscore of 106 with a 160dmg several assists and got a greenarrow at tier 1 on a win. A group could carry a lower tier player to tier1.

If its not a ladder ranking system then why are they even bothering to show it? Because thats exactly what it is and people are going to want to advance their rank. Thats what your not seeming to grasp. The playerbase will want to advance and they will use the appropriate mechs and builds to do so quickly. This kills variety. Look at how the challenge went this weekend with everyone running full meta and high dmg builds. That is what this PSR encourages. Matchscore and winning is king and the playerbase will bring the mechs to give the best chance of meeting one or both.

If a group is consistently winning and is consistently taking you along as a player, then you must be doing something right consistently. I really doubt a group is going to take a player along just for the sake of PSR boosting - only a hardcore group is going to win often enough to make it matter, and no hardcore group is gonna take players that constantly do only 160 damage.

They're bothering to show it because of popular opinion, there's really no other reason at all.

It's like I said, players want a ladder ranking system that honestly can only exist in a 1v1 environment like Solaris. PGI/Paul should have done a more in-depth PSA about what PSR is and what it's for - and most importantly what it is not.

And I think you're just flat mistaken about the PSR changing anything about the variety of mechs or playstyles out there...all it's done for me is that my matches are a more consistent quality - less often am I trying to carry or defeat players who are clearly either inexperienced or just screwing around.

[MechWarrior3671771]

"By using match score, it's not just about damage - lots of spotting, lots of assists, and anything else that can boost match score matters"

Its mostly about damage. Scouting, spotting, flanking, baiting, etc are significantly undercounted.

If I take a scout light and do a good job, I get screwed

If I take a high alpha assault and do a mediocre job I get rewarded

[RussianWolf]

2744/2614 W/L since the reset and I'm Tier 5. I average more than 100k cb and 1k exp per match running a lot of non-meta mechs (even the sucky ones), So I don't think the grind theory holds up.

[sycocys]

Telmasa, on 23 September 2015 - 07:38 PM, said:

Keep in mind that new players start off in the middle of tier 4. (I could mention this in the OP actually, come to think of it)

If two players are different in skill but currently are the same tier, then the system will balance itself out the more they play. The worse player will ostensibly decrease in PSR while the good player will at worst hover where he already is.

I'll repeat again, it's not about making sure matches are always close - that's just not possible, honestly, without the players intentionally setting it up. No matter what tier you go to, there's shut-out games, bad streaks, seeing the same players and so on. The answer is, to me, keep on trying. So far with PSR, in my experience, matches have been an absolute improvement over how matches felt before PSR.

1. Its not about close matches - its about competitive matches. There is a difference. Loading up half of one team with incompetent players and the other side with people that have an understanding of the game is just a recipe for pure failure.

Really don't know how to get it across any clearer other than stating flat out that the **** I've seen for the last 80+ matches has been as far from competitive as the game could possibly get without matching T1 players against T5 players. It's been 100% facerolls one way or the other with the exact team scenarios I mentioned - it isn't players having bad games or bad streaks, its matching competent players against incompetent players counter them and pretending its any shade of balanced.

2. Given that our rankings are based heavily upon the performance of the other 11 players of our team - our PSR is at the whim of the rng of the MM, if you consistently get bad rolls there you get drug down no matter what your performance level is - ie it will never actually balance out for most people because they will get push down to a point of no return simply for the misfortune of having other people play poorly.

3. It simply won't balance out. The bad players heading to T5 are pulling down the better players that should be going to T3 because the MM just plain sucks at making balanced teams that provide competitive matches where the better players would score enough to not lose points because of the bad players on their team. That is how poorly the low skilled players not being across from each other affect matches - you can score in excess of 300 match points and continue to drop simply because you have more of the worse players on your team. Its not a system that worked for elo, and its not going to work any better for PSR.

[Auton]

RussianWolf if you are really 2744/2614 (win ratio of 1.05) and Tier 5 then you must be getting lower match scores (even if you are making money and xp). From what I have seen people with a win ratio over 1 are in Tier 4, 1.10-1.30 in Tier 3, 1.30-1.50 Tier 2. So I would expect you are High Tier 5 and you just need some wins with a high match score to push you into Tier 4.

Now I do see Assists help a lot so all those LRM boats on winning teams will artifically boost there rating because of all the assists they had and damage (giving a higher match score).

[Elizander]

Telmasa, on 23 September 2015 - 02:00 PM, said:

• If for whatever reasons your win rate starts climbing abnormally high, you'll be placed against other players accordingly - increasing the difficulty - so in that sense the PSR system naturally 'balances' players

This seems to be true. I can probably get a half dozen or more seal-clubbing games before things start to even out when I play my metamechs.

[sycocys]

Elizander, on 24 September 2015 - 11:27 AM, said:

This seems to be true. I can probably get a half dozen or more seal-clubbing games before things start to even out when I play my metamechs.

At the same time false because I'll end up on 10-20+ loss streaks because I rng multiple team mates that can't muster 100 damage match after match. It's just pure rng from the MM, if you have sht draws that's what you get, some people get the flip side of the coin. None of it really does any good for actually putting people in the proper tiers.

Edited by sycocys, 24 September 2015 - 11:33 AM.