157 replies to this topic

[AssaultPig]

you need much more coordination to set up a 'firing line' than you do to simply move as a group. Aggressive doesn't win in public games because 'pushing deathball' is some amazing strategy; it wins because it's the easiest strategy for the whole team to follow decisively.

assaults need to be up front trading their armor; if they aren't it means the rest of the teams mechs don't last long

[Steinar Bergstol]

Cerberias, on 23 September 2015 - 11:43 PM, said:

If someone needs a 'please' and a 'thank-you' to listen to others, they're nothing more than children. You listen to people based off the merit of their ideas, not their language - or maybe I'm expecting too much from the proles.

Obviously I wasn't blunt enough for you to understand what's been said to you by just about everyone responding to this thread, so I'll put it in words you'll understand. Listen carefully now:

People will not follow a raging arsewipe no matter how convinced that raging arsewipe is of his own superiority. Don't worry though. You'll learn to recognize such subtle social interactions when you grow up.

Or in short: You are not a competent leader.

[Vlad Ward]

Interweb denizens too often make the mistake of accepting anything anyone says politely at face value, even if it's utter nonsense.

Re: OP. I was in that game you're talking about. I was all of 30 meters away from you in my KGC, along with some other dude (you know, the one who kept telling you he was right there with the crab supporting you?). The team was slowly backing away from that corner because it's a crap position. You probably would've made it if you kept the throttle on and hadn't stopped to fight there. I basically had to retreat in reverse in order to cover you, and you still got wrecked because that's just a terrible, terrible place to set up and no one else wanted to be there.

In the future, you should really consider VOIP if you want any semblance of tactics in your pug games. Typing is too much work for everyone involved and information doesn't flow dynamically in a firefight. If you don't want to bother with that, expect to carry harder like the rest of us. I have zero expectations of anyone else on the team going into a pub match.

Edited by Vlad Ward, 24 September 2015 - 12:02 AM.

[Deathlike]

What is this thread... I don't...

Lord Scarlett Johan, on 23 September 2015 - 10:05 PM, said:

He was in two matches back to back bitching at his team, both were sub-200 games in a Hunchback 4P.

JHunch would never let us down! He wouldn't gripe like this for that matter...


The one issue some people have is that they are occasionally "tone deaf" in their analysis of the game. There are certain positions are often considered "bad places to be at" and occasionally there's are scenarios where a push or not pushing shouldn't have happened.

If you're unable to analyze your own game objectively (mind you, it's easy enough to blame everyone else), then there's no way to progress and get better... and you're only going to repeat those mistakes again.

Even drop commanders acknowledge that they have made mistakes.. usually due to results (although, not so much if a bad idea generates a win). The thing of it is that you can't just assume one tactic will win all... you can only hope that people make good decisions (and this is already rare when soloing), and you're not the one making the completely awful ones.

I've had enough matches where there was a 12-1 roflstomp, where I was the idiot that died first. Sometimes the rush to win, requires a little bit more patience and understanding.

[Cerberias]

@ mischief. You seem to be under the impression that stalkers need to be using regular larges.. I'm not sure why. Stalker can do everything the battlemaster can do (except the speed, which is largely irrelevant on most CW maps, as the fight is generally decided around choke-points and over a very, very long period of time). It also takes damage a hell of a lot better, and shows much less of the mech to get it's shots off, and doesn't have stupidly high arms that telegraph it's appearance whenever it's about to pop for an attack. Might not have quite the range of the battlemaster (very, very close), but it has more DHS and doesn't require an XL in an assault to do well. The speed might be nice against an enemy rush, but chances are you'll be so far back as a 'sniper' to move to the position easily enough at 65 or 85.

I also agree.. partially.. with your statement about needing speed. The reason I agree is because yes, with the terrible strategies being used at the moment you're right, even the assaults need speed. If people grew some brains, however, this would be much less of an issue.

I'm also not here for respect, you don't require the respect of people you have no/little respect for.


@vlad - You were there, pretty sure you died with me. I was in an un-basic skilled dire at the time, and we spawned far left, as such we were screwed anyway. I made a call to support the assaults which if we had done so we could have easily taken that D5 ridge before the enemy could have gotten there, but we got stuck in the open when our team pushed around. It wouldn't have solved much to get out of the way, as the enemy would have just continued to wrap around that corner and do the same thing at the next chokepoint, assuming our team hadn't run around by then. I'm not sure why you consider it to be a bad point, the enemy has only one type of cover, whereas we have the hill ~200m back to provide a secondary viewpoint/better angles. Even if it was a bad place, however, the reason I called it remains unchanged. The enemy was just as predictable as expected, and had we had more firepower in place we would have killed/severely damaged at least a couple before they decided to make any sort of 'push'.

@steinar - You listen to the meaning behind the words, not the individual words, not the tone of voice. You listen to the message. If you can't do that, grow up. I don't care that you think I'm a bad 'leader', because I have no respect for you. If you're getting all offended because I called you brain-dead, or one of the numerous other passive-aggressive insults behind hurled at you mindless masses, read the content and provide an intelligent response. Getting butt-hurt helps nobody. Also, my use of language works perfectly fine in my 'grown up' world, because I'm able to change my tone/language in different situations you see. As a chef, for example, I spoke very aggressively and bluntly - as a primary school teacher however, I can change my language to suit that situation..

Edited by Cerberias, 24 September 2015 - 12:30 AM.

[Vlad Ward]

Cerberias, on 24 September 2015 - 12:21 AM, said:

@vlad - You were there, pretty sure you died with me. I was in an un-basic skilled dire at the time, and we spawned far left, as such we were screwed anyway. I made a call to support the assaults which if we had done so we could have easily taken that D5 ridge before the enemy could have gotten there, but we got stuck in the open when our team pushed around. It wouldn't have solved much to get out of the way, as the enemy would have just continued to wrap around that corner and do the same thing at the next chokepoint, assuming our team hadn't run around by then. I'm not sure why you consider it to be a bad point, the enemy has only one type of cover, whereas we have the hill ~200m back to provide a secondary viewpoint/better angles. Even if it was a bad place, however, the reason I called it remains unchanged. The enemy was just as predictable as expected, and had we had more firepower in place we would have killed/severely damaged at least a couple before they decided to make any sort of 'push'.

In that particular game, it probably would've been better to hold that corner than whatever it was the team ended up doing. I don't remember if I died with you or died shortly after, but even backing out of that corner tore me up.

I'm not a fan of holding there unless we have a really good firing line, though - and that's something I really can't expect from a pug team. There are just too many open sides for the enemy to shoot from and not enough cover to support a full team unless they're focusing down targets as they expose.

Pug teams are always going to naturally gravitate away from positions they're not comfortable with, and once people started drifting out the position became entirely untenable. Once the heavies moved away, the only viable option was to book it as fast as possible.

I think people would've been more willing to hold if the call came on VOIP, though. Something like "Assaults got crap spawn, back us up for a minute" tends to work fine when I care enough to use it. The trouble is caring enough. It's pug queue. I go in expecting 8 minutes of utter nonsense punctuated by occasional bouts of "Why are there 8 LRM boats in Tier 1?"

[Cerberias]

Thankyou for a well formed and thought out response Vlad.

I agree in hindsight that we might have been able to get to the corner, but if our team had continued to push around we were still going to be rear-cored, just at a different spot. Remember dires go ~48kph, so the chances of getting around that corner were iffy at best. I called it over chat (quite politely I thought), instead of VOIP because I expect that a few people will not be playing with sound, and people might forget the instruction or similar. I agree though, we needed a better firing line. We could have had it too but like you said people just gravitate right. I wonder if that's some trained instinct, or whether people are actually in control of themselves...

[MischiefSC]

Cerberias, on 24 September 2015 - 12:21 AM, said:

@ mischief. You seem to be under the impression that stalkers need to be using regular larges.. I'm not sure why. Stalker can do everything the battlemaster can do (except the speed, which is largely irrelevant on most CW maps, as the fight is generally decided around choke-points and over a very, very long period of time). It also takes damage a hell of a lot better, and shows much less of the mech to get it's shots off, and doesn't have stupidly high arms that telegraph it's appearance whenever it's about to pop for an attack. Might not have quite the range of the battlemaster (very, very close), but it has more DHS and doesn't require an XL in an assault to do well. The speed might be nice against an enemy rush, but chances are you'll be so far back as a 'sniper' to move to the position easily enough at 65 or 85.

I also agree.. partially.. with your statement about needing speed. The reason I agree is because yes, with the terrible strategies being used at the moment you're right, even the assaults need speed. If people grew some brains, however, this would be much less of an issue.

I'm also not here for respect, you don't require the respect of people you have no/little respect for.


@vlad - You were there, pretty sure you died with me. I was in an un-basic skilled dire at the time, and we spawned far left, as such we were screwed anyway. I made a call to support the assaults which if we had done so we could have easily taken that D5 ridge before the enemy could have gotten there, but we got stuck in the open when our team pushed around. It wouldn't have solved much to get out of the way, as the enemy would have just continued to wrap around that corner and do the same thing at the next chokepoint, assuming our team hadn't run around by then. I'm not sure why you consider it to be a bad point, the enemy has only one type of cover, whereas we have the hill ~200m back to provide a secondary viewpoint/better angles. Even if it was a bad place, however, the reason I called it remains unchanged. The enemy was just as predictable as expected, and had we had more firepower in place we would have killed/severely damaged at least a couple before they decided to make any sort of 'push'.

@steinar - You listen to the meaning behind the words, not the individual words, not the tone of voice. You listen to the message. If you can't do that, grow up. I don't care that you think I'm a bad 'leader', because I have no respect for you. If you're getting all offended because I called you brain-dead, or one of the numerous other passive-aggressive insults behind hurled at you mindless masses, read the content and provide an intelligent response. Getting butt-hurt helps nobody. Also, my use of language works perfectly fine in my 'grown up' world, because I'm able to change my tone/language in different situations you see. As a chef, for example, I spoke very aggressively and bluntly - as a primary school teacher however, I can change my language to suit that situation..

So you don't care if anyone respects you. I think this thread has made clear that nobody really does -

ergo, nobody cares what your opinions about how to play are, ergo you're a bad leader. Vlad gave you good advice, probably worth taking. Notice how his tone is different and people listen to his advice more often because of it.

As to the Stalker, playing a Stalker with 4 ERLLs you're wasting tonnage and space as you will carry fewer DHS or have wasted tonnage. Even with 4 ERLLs and 2 LLs for, I guess, backup? You're also giving up ~380m of range for lower speed, less maneuverability, inferior heat dissipation (not just fewer DHS but also inferior heat dissipation quirks) and all you get is survivability that you don't need because if the enemy is within effective shooting range of you in an ERLL sniper you're already boned.

Run the BLR 1S if you're going to snipe for the IS. Use the Stalker to support pushes or cover a fire lane in a killbox on defense at 300-500m. 6 LLs on a Stalker (there's a good build with 5 I've seen too) because it's a god damn surgeon for sustained laser fire at mid-range and can cut the legs off most Clan mechs quickly and efficiently and it tanks like a beast. The hill-humping is phenomenal as well on just about any CW map save Sulfurous and Vitric where there are too few positions to exploit the arms.

For the IS speed is life for bigger mechs. Most Clan heavies can demolish most IS Assaults at brawling range, especially if they can get a numbers advantage on you. High alphas and a lot of precision. Slow assaults get overrun; if you're going to set up in a Stalker you need to be in a place where you're going to do a lot of damage before you die because unless your team absolutely face-rolls the other one you're absolutely going to get overrun and killed. End of the day that's a bad trade; killing 1 Clan 65 or 55 ton mech while losing your 75 ton mech is how IS teams get demolished on wave 3.

Again, for the IS against Clans, a 4X and a BLR 1S for your long range and a ML packing BJ 1X and depending on the map either a Stalker 3F/4N or with some tweaks a WubMaster or Wubshee for your clean-up/push/brawling. There are some situations where you'll switch a Firestarter (or Spider) for the 4X but that's pretty situational. Anything more complex than those needs a team with a coordinated drop deck and you just don't find those in the IS very often.

Edited by MischiefSC, 24 September 2015 - 12:48 AM.

[Cerberias]

If you're exposing more than your top 4 lasers in a stalker you're either out of position or popping horribly. You only lose ~84m optimal range in the 3H compared to the battlemaster, you also gain 2.5% heat efficiency through quirks, and 2 DHS. You also don't just take damage at close range, if you're popping with a battlemaster you're going to take more fire than if you're popping in a stalker, with less toughness (by far) to take said damage. You'll be pressured out of the fight by counter-sniper fire much easier with the battlemaster compared to the stalker. Taking damage in close also forces the enemy to put more fire into you, in a brawl with the stalker this equates to roughly triple or greater the damage mitigation of the XL battlemaster (read up on damage bleed, stalkers essentially get 50% less damage whenever shielding with a destroyed component, i.e. the giant torsos), meaning less damage for your team and more time you're forcing the enemy to stay on you. If you're caught on your own chances are your team is either getting destroyed or you were in a bad position, which makes it irrelevant either way.

Assuming the 'standard' clan builds (laservomit), I find it hard to believe that you can lose in an IS assault against a clan heavy, unless you're twisting terribly. Simply looking at the amount of damage both sides can put out inside the time frame, and the terrible hitboxes of most clan mechs (hit the jutting nose = CT), the IS should come out on top considering equal pilots. I guess when you run XL assaults you can't really afford to twist, as you can just get taken out via side torso instead, so it makes sense. STD engine assaults generally bitchslap clan heavies around in my experience, especially when built for brawl.

I completely agree that you need to take different mechs on different maps, of course. Vitric I run a very different deck than Boreal, of course.

Edited by Cerberias, 24 September 2015 - 01:08 AM.

[MischiefSC]

Cerberias, on 24 September 2015 - 01:06 AM, said:

If you're exposing more than your top 4 lasers in a stalker you're either out of position or popping horribly. You only lose ~84m optimal range in the 3H compared to the battlemaster, you also gain 2.5% heat efficiency through quirks, and 2 DHS. You also don't just take damage at close range, if you're popping with a battlemaster you're going to take more fire than if you're popping in a stalker, with less toughness (by far) to take said damage. You'll be pressured out of the fight by counter-sniper fire much easier with the battlemaster compared to the stalker. Taking damage in close also forces the enemy to put more fire into you, in a brawl with the stalker this equates to roughly triple or greater the damage mitigation of the XL battlemaster (read up on damage bleed, stalkers essentially get 50% less damage whenever shielding with a destroyed component, i.e. the giant torsos), meaning less damage for your team and more time you're forcing the enemy to stay on you. If you're caught on your own chances are your team is either getting destroyed or you were in a bad position, which makes it irrelevant either way.

Assuming the 'standard' clan builds (laservomit), I find it hard to believe that you can lose in an IS assault against a clan heavy, unless you're twisting terribly. Simply looking at the amount of damage both sides can put out inside the time frame, and the terrible hitboxes of most clan mechs (hit the jutting nose = CT), the IS should come out on top considering equal pilots. I guess when you run XL assaults you can't really afford to twist, as you can just get taken out via side torso instead, so it makes sense. STD engine assaults generally bitchslap clan heavies around in my experience, especially when built for brawl.

I completely agree that you need to take different mechs on different maps, of course. Vitric I run a very different deck than Boreal, of course.

169m lost on a 3H, if you're not poking at maximum range on Clan mechs you're doin' it wrong.

Second is the shorter burn time; 12.5%, which lets you burn and twist away faster.

Finally is mobility. The better DPS on a regular LL stalker (lost if you've gone 4xERLL plus 2 LLs) but assuming you're 6xLLs is lost if you're not in a coordinated 12man team who's going to stand in a firing line to match DPS with the Clan mechs. You're going to be fighting 4 v 1 when the Clan mechs push. If you're tucked in somewhere covering a ridge line at 500m, sure.

Not for sniping though. CERLLs are so terribad that almost nobody takes them so in actual practice you're out-ranging Clan energy boats by close to 1k. Gauss is still an issue but you're going to out-DPS any Gauss boat but a Dire by a huge amount for sniper exchanges.

For sniping you need mobility to reposition more than brawling durability in a practical sense for IS. Clanners are almost universally built for that 500m sweet-spot where they wreck face and they use their greater speed to exploit it. You'll see the occasional gauss + erll HBR and the like but almost universally people bring CERMLs, CLPLs, Gauss and face-palmingly common a ton of LRMs.

I take the 3F about 50% of the time, more when I'm in a group but in actual practice that durability is irrelevant in the face of a push. Your team will fall back to reposition (because IS mechs < Clan mechs 90% of the time) and you're going to get left to it. Exceptions are good teams when you're tucked in with 3 or 4 other Stalkers, in which case sure. You'll run the whole match in your first mech.

If you're going to snipe though you're going to be facing Clan teams almost universally comprised of CERML/LL and single gauss. What's going to kill you isn't enemy snipers; it's being left by your team or being out of position. A Stalker in your deck is absolutely better spent on 6 LLs and tucked into a firing line, preferably around mechs your own speed. You try to snipe with it and you'll spend a lot of time trying to reposition while your team gets overrun or finding yourself 2 grids away from your team all of a sudden because someone saw a squirrel.

Again - I'm not talking a comp tier tournament match. I'm talking a CW drop deck, playing CW. I've played many, many hundreds of CW maps and only in the first month or so did I see Clan teams actually set up for a long range wave. Attack or defense. If you're sniping as IS in CW you're there to pull legs and secure kills on people 800+m away (or more) in support of your Stalkers, BJ 1Xs and Wubberbolts. The return fire you take is going to to be gauss (which you should be watching for those peeking little EJ mother ******* and the HBRs with the big pert nipple) and twisting away from then shooting twice while they recycle their Gauss. If you do see someone inexplicably carrying CERLLs expect those pale lasers of his to draw your teams lights and fast mediums like a magnet as they recognize an easy kill.

Seriously. Boreal, Hellbore, defense on Sulfurous, Emerald Taiga run the BLR 1S. You'll be in position faster, stick with your unit and generally deploy in attack before the other team has gotten anything but lights out of their spawn. Most the IS pilots who topped the leader board for CW on the recent events did so by running the 1S just like that. It's an easy, easy mech to play the whole match with since you can out-range and out-shoot most of what you can't out-run and if you do get caught by lights or even a Scrow you can get back to your team before you take much hurt. You can run a whole match very effectively outside of 1K the whole time, win or lose. The Stalker is a turret. It works great for that but for 85 tons that tanks like a beast you need to be playing up front and that means LLs, not ERLLs.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Everything the OP said I have seen PUG teams both do and not do. The reason? It's PUGville. You get all sorts and all differing levels of performance and consistency.

As a veteran player the OP should know this. My advice, either he stick to team play/comp play, or learn to chill out and roll with the PUGs because a little whine thread isn't going to change the behavior of the PUG.

[Light-Speed]

Well, this guy certainly have horrible ethos for someone trying to be a leader.


Neither do I agree with telling others what is the "best range" because others may prefer and do better at what you don't (btw, interest is important in making you push yourself in a certain field, don't you think?).


As for the title: perspective. Everything looks like a cesspool if you are in it. Making claims about everything while scuba diving in that corner classified as the cesspool, well good for you.
Why do I say this? I am not part of the audience you are aiming for with that original post, so I don't particularly appreciate the title's generalization about everything that is not defined as part of something that has a fairly inapt name to begin with.


p.s. *facepalm* imo that signature is horrible. In at least two ways.

[Mudhutwarrior]

Pugs bad, Comp guys good. I think I understand now.

Problem is I don't see Comp guys police themselves of cheaters and exploiters.

I discount anything you have to say on that basis.

I tend to only listen to honorable players and they don't paint with a broad brush or use insults to get their point across.

[Random Carnage]

It's hard not to rage in the face of stupidity.

I do it, far to often, and I'm aware at the time that I should just shut the fu*k up, but when voip is on, and you've just die because a team of dropkicks are apparently using half their available mental capacity to keep breathing... well, rage happens.

I know I do it. I know I shouldn't. It is what it is, and I keep living in hope that someday PUGville will get better.

In the meantime, if you hear me vent, just send me a /hug and I'll know I'm amongst friends

[Kilo 40]

and in other news, the OP died early in a fight in the solo queue tonight. Then in a fit of range and anger, designed to protect his ego, he made an angry "you pugs suk" thread.

and after the break stay tuned for a "LRMs are for losers and I shouldn't die from them!" thread.

[TheCharlatan]

Often all it takes to win a game is write in chat: "Stick with the assaults!" or something similar.
The number of times this simple thing has won me games is astounding.
People in pugs just need a little leadership: you just make sure that the whole team is pointed in the same direction, and you win.
It works 50-75% of the time, every time.

[LordDante]

@OP Spoken like a true jade falcon
AND THATS NO COMPLIMENT !

No one forces you to enter the eye of chaos aka puglandia !

u remind me of the guy last night that was bragging half of the game how awsome his laser boat executioner, was and how we should do this and that to roflstomp our enemys.
to make a short story even shorter. Wumbo got his right arm shot of after 2 min of trading and then told us not to charge the enemy when we where 7:5 leading on alpine holding the highground.
afterward he told us how noobish we have been to loose that battle ....

pug hell would be much better without all thos high comp players....

[jss78]

I like all these tears flowing from Mt. Tryhard ... keeps the underhive nice and lush.

Steinar Bergstol, on 23 September 2015 - 11:31 PM, said:

I've been pugging for the vast majority of my time since Closed Beta, and I've seen pugs be quite willing to listen to directions very often. However, those who are listened to are those who display a minimum of leadership skill and social awareness. In other words people who don't come off as being as likeable and useful as a wet skidmark om the stinky underpants of life.

Perhaps you have something to learn from those people.

Agreed, I've spent much of my playing time in Tier 4'ish solo queue, and if you have a person suggesting a simple plan in a non-condescending manner, I think people listen OK. Exceptions abound of course, but are not the big picture IMO.

More often the suggestions don't come, but only the whining after what the silent person hoped for failed to happen.

Cerberias, on 23 September 2015 - 11:43 PM, said:

If someone needs a 'please' and a 'thank-you' to listen to others, they're nothing more than children. You listen to people based off the merit of their ideas, not their language - or maybe I'm expecting too much from the proles.

Nice theory there. You'll learn (I hope) that how you say it is at least as important. This isn't a military where you have any actual authority over people. And even if you did have authority, well-motivated people work better.

[sneeking]

I want to tell you that for casual players who might like to spend some money on cool mechs do some paint jobs and experiment with play styles that 'comp play' isnt all that either.

Far as im concerned puggers are the majority population who foolishly supported this game with their credit cards and the comp play minority got most of the devs attention.

[Cerberias]

@ mischief.

At 1km, the extra range gets you ~0.7 extra damage per beam. Sure it helps, but it's hardly an incredible advantage, as it'll disappear fast if the ranges shorten even a little.

Sorry, your first full paragraph, I'm not sure what you're trying to say there. You start with mobility then move to dps? In regards to mobility, you lose ~25% of your move speed, it hardly turns you into a turret. I will admit that it would help on certain places on certain maps - I'll bow to your CW knowledge.

In regards to sniping, I suppose that's fair enough with the ERLL. Personally I don't find them that bad because realistically, the mechs that use them aren't 'peeking' mechs, they're turrets. That being said, you can't really bring the dire on CW, so again I'll bow to your CW knowledge. I should have specified my topic as being non-CW, I actually find people in CW are generally more team-oriented, had quite a lot of fun over the tourney.

I'll give the BM a shot next time I'm in CW.. not gonna run it for normals though!


@everyone saying I'm a terrible 'leader' - I'm not trying to be a 'leader', I'm telling you that what you're doing now, is a terrible strategy 90% of the time and causes your teams loss relatively often.

@jss, how you say it is important with children and people that don't know any better. Real adults should be judging things not on how you say something but what is in the message. This of course works both ways, if someone is very polite and well mannered, it doesn't make what they're saying correct.

@kilo, I may be tier 1, but I make a hell of a lot of mistakes, I'm definitely not the best pilot out there. I have worse aim than many of the other top tier players. How's that for 'protecting my ego'?

Edited by Cerberias, 24 September 2015 - 03:45 AM.