125 replies to this topic

[Ultimax]

Mors Draco, on 24 September 2015 - 07:56 AM, said:

So basically you are going to discount anyone below X tier's opinion because their views are of lesser value or biased because they must be bad to be in lower tiers?

I wouldn't completely discount someone's opinion, and I'm not really a fan of hard elitism about tiers because they really don't seem to be all that special to be in.


On the other hand, there are a number of issues that often come up that are very heavily a experience (or "learn to play" if we want to be rude) issue.


People demanding lights be nerfed and that they are OP is one of them, you almost never hear this from the vast majority of players we all knew were top tier even before PSR - or for all of the players who were able to guess they had at least a higher than average Elo (because they were regularly facing top tier players).



That's not all the time mind you, I think there are probably players who are honest with themselves and will say "my aim isn't great" or "I never play optimized loadouts" and know that's why they struggle with Lights for example as opposed to "lights being OP".

Edited by Ultimatum X, 24 September 2015 - 08:06 AM.

[Vlad Ward]

Yellonet, on 24 September 2015 - 08:03 AM, said:

Yeah, I'm going to take a graph with the title "Truth" seriously.

There is nothing on the internet more serious than graphs made in MS Paint.

[L3mming2]

Mors Draco, on 24 September 2015 - 07:56 AM, said:

So basically you are going to discount anyone below X tier's opinion because their views are of lesser value or biased because they must be bad to be in lower tiers? It took longer than i expected for one of these threads to appear. But I digress.

I think most lights are in a good place, with some maybe slightly overpowered and others underpowered. I'm Tier 5.

no i am not going to discount there opinion, i am trying to find out if there opinions differ... thats not going to work if i discount them dont you think

[CDLord HHGD]

L3mming2, on 24 September 2015 - 07:52 AM, said:

that they are good as they are as a whole (some need buffs and some nerfs)

You are correct, carry on.

[MerryIguana]

Ultimatum X, on 24 September 2015 - 07:52 AM, said:

Most need to be buffed, the few good ones there are (FS9, ACH) do not need to be nerfed.


T2

What he said. Also T2.

[L3mming2]

Soulos, on 24 September 2015 - 07:58 AM, said:

The best lights are fine where they are. Rest need buffs, some need massive buffs, looking at you commando.

T2, low end

Edit, I think the reason he wants to see tier is to see if lower / higher tiers agree or disagree on a whole. I want to see this as well. Folks who have a harder time hitting a light in motion might think they need nerds while the t1 elite who can duel gauss them in the back from 600 yards, no scope mind you, may think they need a buff. Fun way of looking at the issue if you ask me.

this guy gets it

[Yellonet]

L3mming2, on 24 September 2015 - 08:06 AM, said:

no i am not going to discount there opinion, i am trying to find out if there opinions differ... thats not going to work if i discount them dont you think

But why do you want to know if opinions on light mechs differ in general between tiers?
When it comes to how the game feels/plays, every players opinion should weigh the same and as such, why would it matter what tier the player is in?
Players have as much right to enjoy the game regardless of their skill level (or rather level of playing correctly).

If a T5 player says that Lights are very very OP, while a T1 says they are just right it doesn't mean that the T1 is right and the T5 needs to git gud, because the T5 might not have the ability to become very good.
So then the truth about Lights is really between those two opinions.

Edited by Yellonet, 24 September 2015 - 08:18 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Yellonet, on 24 September 2015 - 08:00 AM, said:

Excuse me, but WTF does the tier have to do with this???

I didn't want to believe that there was an elitist group here

Well I think he was going to try to relate that bad pilots would want nerfs and good pilots Buffs depending on how easily they can kill a light...

[Vlad Ward]

Yellonet, on 24 September 2015 - 08:13 AM, said:

But why do you want to know if opinions on light mechs differ in general between tiers?
When it comes to how the game feels/plays, every players opinion should weigh the same and as such, why would it matter what tier the player is in?
Players have as much right to enjoy the game regardless of their skill level (or rather level of playing correctly).

Shoulda just read the graph. Seriously. Sums up the very long, drawn out explanation of why opinions on Lights differ so drastically between skill levels in a nice, little graphic.

Short text version? Lights become increasingly invincible as enemy accuracy decreases. Spiders may be unkillable gods of the battlefield in Tier 5 where players simply can't hit a small, fast moving target while simultaneously being absolute junk in Tier 1 where just about anything with a pulse can 1-shot them.

It's not easy to balance Lights in such a way that they're useful in high level play without simultaneously being absurdly overpowered in matches where no one can hit them.

Therefore a player's accuracy and overall skill level have a non-trivial impact on their interaction with Lights, and would probably be relevant in any discussion involving Light mech balance.

[L3mming2]

Yellonet, on 24 September 2015 - 08:13 AM, said:

But why do you want to know if opinions on light mechs differ in general between tiers?
When it comes to how the game feels/plays, every players opinion should weigh the same and as such, why would it matter what tier the player is in?
Players have as much right to enjoy the game regardless of their skill level (or rather level of playing correctly).

If a T5 player says that Lights are very very OP, while a T1 says they are just right it doesn't mean that the T1 is right and the T5 needs to git gud, because the T5 might not have the ability to become very good.
So then the truth about Lights is really between those two opinions.

there are 3 outcomes;
evryone agrees they need to be buffed ==> lets buff them
low tiers they are op high tiers they are up ==> now it gets intresting we need to find a way to make them viable it top tier and not god mode in low tier
everyone agrees they are op ==> they should be nerfed

[Lorian Sunrider]

Vlad Ward, on 24 September 2015 - 08:17 AM, said:

Shoulda just read the graph. Seriously. Sums up the very long, drawn out explanation of why opinions on Lights differ so drastically between skill levels in a nice, little graphic.

Short text version? Lights become increasingly invincible as enemy accuracy decreases. Spiders may be unkillable gods of the battlefield in Tier 5 where players simply can't hit a small, fast moving target while simultaneously being absolute junk in Tier 1 where just about anything with a pulse can 1-shot them.

It's not easy to balance Lights in such a way that they're useful in high level play without simultaneously being absurdly overpowered in matches where no one can hit them.

Therefore a player's accuracy and overall skill level have a non-trivial impact on their interaction with Lights, and would probably be relevant in any discussion involving Light mech balance.

I was trying to figure out a good way to say it, but you said exactly what I wanted to. Kudos.

[Yellonet]

Vlad Ward, on 24 September 2015 - 08:17 AM, said:

Shoulda just read the graph. Seriously. Sums up the very long, drawn out explanation of why opinions on Lights differ so drastically between skill levels in a nice, little graphic.

Short text version? Lights become increasingly invincible as enemy accuracy decreases. Spiders may be unkillable gods of the battlefield in Tier 5 where players simply can't hit a small, fast moving target while simultaneously being absolute junk in Tier 1 where just about anything with a pulse can 1-shot them.

It's not easy to balance Lights in such a way that they're useful in high level play without simultaneously being absurdly overpowered in matches where no one can hit them.

Therefore a player's accuracy and overall skill level have a non-trivial impact on their interaction with Lights, and would probably be relevant in any discussion involving Light mech balance.

Any mofo understands this, the thing is that if T1 says that lights are ok and T5 says their OP, the truth is in the middle.
And as such knowing the tier of each player with an opinion is just extraneous info without any weight.

We shouldn't have a game where many (most?) of the players feel that many mechs are too good.
"L2P" just isn't an option for everyone as skill at video games isn't equal, and not everyone can get the aim it requires to easily deal with lights.

L3mming2, on 24 September 2015 - 08:22 AM, said:

there are 3 outcomes;
evryone agrees they need to be buffed ==> lets buff them
low tiers they are op high tiers they are up ==> now it gets intresting we need to find a way to make them viable it top tier and not god mode in low tier
everyone agrees they are op ==> they should be nerfed

Yes, but this "survey" is equally possible and valid without knowing anyone's tier.

[Vlad Ward]

Yellonet, on 24 September 2015 - 08:32 AM, said:

Any mofo understands this, the thing is that if T1 says that lights are ok and T5 says their OP, the truth is in the middle.
And as such knowing the tier of each player with an opinion is just extraneous info without any weight.

We shouldn't have a game where many (most?) of the players feel that many mechs are too good.
"L2P" just isn't an option for everyone as skill at video games isn't equal, and not everyone can get the aim it requires to easily deal with lights.


Yes, but this "survey" is equally possible and valid without knowing anyone's tier.

Notice the orange bar in the graph. Streaks. They pretty much solve the "whose experience is more important" discussion outright.

Make Lights viable in competitive play. Let weaker players use lock-on weapons to dismantle them if they can't aim. It's less efficient than real, direct fire weapons for a high skill player, but it's better than missing every shot. Everyone's happy.

See? Really shoulda read the graph.

[Lorian Sunrider]

Yellonet, on 24 September 2015 - 08:32 AM, said:

Any mofo understands this, the thing is that if T1 says that lights are ok and T5 says their OP, the truth is in the middle.
And as such knowing the tier of each player with an opinion is just extraneous info without any weight.

By that logic, lights need to be nerfed? Really?

[L3mming2]

Yellonet, on 24 September 2015 - 08:32 AM, said:

Any mofo understands this, the thing is that if T1 says that lights are ok and T5 says their OP, the truth is in the middle.
And as such knowing the tier of each player with an opinion is just extraneous info without any weight.

We shouldn't have a game where many (most?) of the players feel that many mechs are too good.
"L2P" just isn't an option for everyone as skill at video games isn't equal, and not everyone can get the aim it requires to easily deal with lights.


Yes, but this "survey" is equally possible and valid without knowing anyone's tier.

no its not, becouse if its t1 that says lights are op and tier 5 says that they are up, then the hole theory that good aim makes light up is clearly wrong... and yes i go with the assumption t1's have a better aim then tier 5's

[RockmachinE]

T2

Fine

Lights are deadly if used correctly.

[L3mming2]

PocketAces, on 24 September 2015 - 07:55 AM, said:

I like to pilot lights, ans it shows in my tier.......... T4 half full.

so you mean buff?

[Joseph Mallan]

Louis Brofist, on 24 September 2015 - 08:40 AM, said:

T2

Fine

Lights are deadly if used correctly.

Or easy pickings when used by me!

[Yellonet]

Lorian Sunrider, on 24 September 2015 - 08:40 AM, said:

By that logic, lights need to be nerfed? Really?

Some, not all lights are equal.

[Lorian Sunrider]

Yellonet, on 24 September 2015 - 08:58 AM, said:

Some, not all lights are equal.

Name a light mech that deserves to be nerfed that isn't named the Firestarter or the Arctic Cheetah.

There are 11 light mechs in the game, with a 12th coming soon. So 2/11 may deserve a nerf.

I'm just saying be careful with your blanket statements.

Edited by Lorian Sunrider, 24 September 2015 - 09:03 AM.