125 replies to this topic

[Dino Might]

Yeonne Greene, on 24 September 2015 - 05:53 PM, said:

My Locust 1E cost 30,498,992 C-bills after accounting for the upgrades and modules (Derp, Info, Shocks, Med. Range, Med. Cool)...

...


...holy sh*t.

Edit: Ninja.

Replace Info Gather with Seismic and Shocks with Hill Climb and that's mine. I love running the little bug that has more cbills in it than many Dire Wolves.

Some lights need buffs, others are fine just the way they are (I think the 1E is in a good place right now).
Ultimately, I would like to see all lights get 10 true dubs AND/OR remove the 10 heatsink minimum.

In that case, I'd consider myself in the "buff all lights" camp, but only in those specific ways.

T2

[L3mming2]

TheCharlatan, on 30 September 2015 - 03:30 AM, said:

Personally i belive that underperfoming lights need a bit of quirkage (small weapon quirks, in particular duration bonus + small armor buffs) coupled with strong maneuverability bonuses (accell/decel/reverse speed/ turn) and strong sensor bonuses (slower dorito appearance/ longer range sensors/ faster info gathering).

i fully agrea with you, but i don't know how this will influence there power lvl in the low tiers, for the high tiers this is IMO the way to go...

[Lugh]

L3mming2, on 24 September 2015 - 07:25 AM, said:

do you think lights need to be
-buffed
-nerfed
-are good where they are?

pl tell your tier alongside your awnser
tnx

example;

buffed
t2


preliminary results

t1)
buff; 4
nerf; 1
good; 1

t2)
buff; 8
nerf; 0
good; 5

t3)
buff; 5
nerf; 0
good; 4

t4)
buff; 0
nerf; 0
good; 2

t5)
buff; 0
nerf; 0
good; 2

results;
32 votes
17 buff votes
14 good as they are votes
1 nerf vote

other intresting things; its clear that the idea that the higher the tier the more ppl think that lights are up and need to be buffed is corect.

==> we need a way that buffs lights in high tiers but dont make them op in low tiers..
any ideas on how to do that?

Structure buffs that don't give more fall damage to legs would be a start. The problem is that the higher you go tier wise, the better the enemies you face can aim, and the total lack of any armor and 40+ point alphas means you go *poof* when they look at you.

[Eggs Mayhem]

L3mming2, on 24 September 2015 - 07:25 AM, said:

we need a way that buffs lights in high tiers but dont make them op in low tiers..
any ideas on how to do that?

Prevent large alphas.

Regardless of what skill level you are at the speed of a light mech shortens the window of time you have to shoot at it. Right now, it hardly matters because we can empty every weapon at once into the little buggers in a split second, but if we were to have a mechanic that put a hard limit on how much damage you can put out at once, I think we'd extend the average light's lifespan disproportionally relative to the other weight classes.

This goes two ways, light mechs with larger alphas would also be curbed and their main advantage of being able to walk behind less experienced players and alpha them dead would be lessened. It would still be possible, but the window of time they need to do it would be larger.

[mogs01gt]

IMO it depends on the mech. The majority of lights are useless. There are like 3 that are a ******* PITA!!!! So I guess since the majority of them suck, buff them.

Edited by mogs01gt, 30 September 2015 - 04:33 AM.

[L3mming2]

EmperorMyrf, on 30 September 2015 - 04:31 AM, said:

Prevent large alphas.

Regardless of what skill level you are at the speed of a light mech shortens the window of time you have to shoot at it. Right now, it hardly matters because we can empty every weapon at once into the little buggers in a split second, but if we were to have a mechanic that put a hard limit on how much damage you can put out at once, I think we'd extend the average light's lifespan disproportionally relative to the other weight classes.

This goes two ways, light mechs with larger alphas would also be curbed and their main advantage of being able to walk behind less experienced players and alpha them dead would be lessened. It would still be possible, but the window of time they need to do it would be larger.

the large alpha problem is IMO not realy a big problem for lights, i fear a dual gauss way more then a 68 clan laser alpha.

explenation; a well aimed dual gauss is GG, a 68 laser alpha i can (if i do it right) spread/ doge for the most part and after that i can make the (now to hot to alpha again) enemy pay for its mistake ...

in high tiers the mechs i realy fear in a lolcust are the dakka mechs and the gauss mechs (the ppc mechs can be dangerous to but they run hot, so if u can make them miss a few times you got a good chance) ssrms are not that dangerous, the lock on and flight time are usualy enough to get back to cover, if not then u have made a fail ==> you die

[Eggs Mayhem]

L3mming2, on 30 September 2015 - 04:57 AM, said:

the large alpha problem is IMO not realy a big problem for lights, i fear a dual gauss way more then a 68 clan laser alpha.

explenation; a well aimed dual gauss is GG, a 68 laser alpha i can (if i do it right) spread/ doge for the most part and after that i can make the (now to hot to alpha again) enemy pay for its mistake ...

in high tiers the mechs i realy fear in a lolcust are the dakka mechs and the gauss mechs (the ppc mechs can be dangerous to but they run hot, so if u can make them miss a few times you got a good chance) ssrms are not that dangerous, the lock on and flight time are usualy enough to get back to cover, if not then u have made a fail ==> you die

And I feel that dual gauss is still too high of an alpha. the largest weapon you should need to fire is an LRM20, so it should be capped at that. 30 damage would then be unreachable and dual gauss would require firing them separately.

it will definitely limit the number of builds that are super effective light killers.

[L3mming2]

ps; i think pgi has identified this problem and has tried to fix it.
let me explain, high tiers tend to take out lights by legging them, low tiers (whit worse aim) just shoot center mass
so pgi's solution to buff them in high tier game play ==> buff the legs

result in my experience, builds with a high enough PPFLD will just fire center mass and the torso that gets hit will be destroyed (meaning instand dead for not clan lights)

a posible way to solve this is more agility for the lights (lets say a aditional flat +25% turning/acceleration/decceleration bonus for all lights) this whould be a buff thats dependand on the skill lvl of the pilot, do i fear it will russel the jimmies of some low tier assaults ...

[L3mming2]

EmperorMyrf, on 30 September 2015 - 05:13 AM, said:

And I feel that dual gauss is still too high of an alpha. the largest weapon you should need to fire is an LRM20, so it should be capped at that. 30 damage would then be unreachable and dual gauss would require firing them separately.

it will definitely limit the number of builds that are super effective light killers.

this guy likes your idea very very much
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...52cf3ca0cc8090a

[KinLuu]

T3

The lights that I play (Cheetah, Firestarter) are good as they are.

The rest needs to be buffed, or removed.

[InspectorG]

L3mming2, on 24 September 2015 - 07:25 AM, said:

other intresting things; its clear that the idea that the higher the tier the more ppl think that lights are up and need to be buffed is corect.

==> we need a way that buffs lights in high tiers but dont make them op in low tiers..
any ideas on how to do that?

FS and AC are pretty fine where they are, Jenner IIC looks to be good as well.

Rest need a buff starting with engines pre-equipped with 10 true DHS.

Ammo dependent lights, particularly on the lighter end of the tonnage scale, need compensation for not having engouh tonnage for ammo.
The Armor Doubling used to expand TTK obsoleted many Commandos, Locusts, Mist Lynx.

But,

IMO, the MAIN problem:

Heavies and Assaults TURN/TWIST TOO FAST.

They are simply too agile, too easy for them to keep a bead on a fast moving target that can be crippled/one shotted in one alpha is the player has decent aim/build.

Make (most)Heavies and Assaults very forward oriented in their firepower and Lights and the more mobile-less powerful mechs would gain viability. This can stem the ever growing power creep.

[MechWarrior3671771]

"Raven is in a good place with the present quirks. Longrange sniper, ECM support, SRM brawler, NARC tag scout mech. Good role warfare with this mech."

No not really. The 3L needs another laser hardpoint. It currently has 3 to other lights sporting 6-8. The reasoning for the fewer hardpoints was to balance for its ability to carry ECM. But now that ECM is getting a nerf, all ECM mech hardpoints need to be revisited.


The 2ERL sniper role is subpar and counter-intuitive. You're going to slap a 295xl on it so you can go 150 but spend most your time standing in a sniper hide? Waste of engine tonnage. You also rob your team of ECM support. And if you get caught out there alone by any other light (and you will), you are at a significant disadvantage re laser duration and damage. I run mine with a 255xl and stay with the main body, picking off targets from the back lines.

SRM brawler? SRM hit reg seems off these days, which is why my SRM8a and SRM12 are parked.

But the NARC is the most useless variant. And I tried very stubbornly to make it work, since that's the Raven 3Ls quirks. Problems:

1) the +10 duration quirk doesn't actually work. Test it in Training Grounds.
2) the 3L is already starved for damage output, putting NARC on just makes it worse
3) NARC is too dependent on LRM support, which you rarely see above T4
4) ammo is too limited per ton (12 shots)
5) AMS takes down NARC
6) destructibles (trees etc) eat NARC rounds, and the trend seems to be including more of them
7) too much overlapping ECM these days to make NARCing ECM mechs effective.

I'm hoping that for the information warfare pass, PGI ditches the useless NARC quirks in exchange for significant sensor boosts. If there is an information warfare light that keeps the Clan awake at night, it should be the Raven 3L. And another laser hardpoint would be cool too.

I'm T4, but I have about 4.5 million XP racked up in the 3L.

Also, the OP's experiment doesn't take pilots like me into account - low tier but only pilots light mechs.

Edited by Fenrisulvyn, 30 September 2015 - 06:05 AM.

[L3mming2]

InspectorG, on 30 September 2015 - 05:36 AM, said:

FS and AC are pretty fine where they are, Jenner IIC looks to be good as well.

Rest need a buff starting with engines pre-equipped with 10 true DHS.

Ammo dependent lights, particularly on the lighter end of the tonnage scale, need compensation for not having engouh tonnage for ammo.
The Armor Doubling used to expand TTK obsoleted many Commandos, Locusts, Mist Lynx.

But,

IMO, the MAIN problem:

Heavies and Assaults TURN/TWIST TOO FAST.

They are simply too agile, too easy for them to keep a bead on a fast moving target that can be crippled/one shotted in one alpha is the player has decent aim/build.

Make (most)Heavies and Assaults very forward oriented in their firepower and Lights and the more mobile-less powerful mechs would gain viability. This can stem the ever growing power creep.

nerfing the twist and turn of heavys and assaults will do the job but...
2 problems,
you make it posible for a light to out manouver them, but you have made it to easy to do so, result, in low tier maches the lights will be op.. if u boest the agility of the lights it will be also posible for them to out manouver heavys/ assaults but it will demand a high skill lvl to do so

problem 2 nerfing twist and turn in assaults will make them horible to play (up to rage quiting lvl's)

[Eggs Mayhem]

L3mming2, on 30 September 2015 - 05:22 AM, said:

this guy likes your idea very very much
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...52cf3ca0cc8090a

I wanted to avoid getting into the full details of how I'd personally implement this mechanic, but that guy wouldn't be as nasty as he is now (also ultras are broken anyways, 12.5% increase in tonnage for 100% increase in dps? ok...) so here we go.

Essentially this would be enforced by some sort of energy gauge. Firing a weapon would deplete energy, and the energy gauge will replenish over time, much quicker than heat dissipates. The amount of energy depleted per weapon would be a function of the weapon's damage, range, and spread; ideally, AC/20s, GaussRifles, C-ERPPCs, and LRM-20s would all require ~20 energy, which should be the maximum size of the energy gauge for all mechs. The rate at which the energy gauge replenishes should be a function of mech weight, where Atlases replenish their gauge twice as fast as a locust and the rest are linearly interpolated from there.

With this system, only 3 UAC/5s at a maximum can be fired simultaneously (because the long range increases the amount of energy they consume to be mildly above 5). And the DPS of these UACs would not be able to be maintained (on ultra).

I've got a whole list of how I'd do this in a post that never saw any traffic in feature suggestions here that comes with a broad lessening of DPS in case you're interested. I feel all my changes there would level out the playing field and make every mech class equal, and with a lower global dps the roles of mechs start to come forth.

[Lugh]

L3mming2, on 30 September 2015 - 05:48 AM, said:

nerfing the twist and turn of heavys and assaults will do the job but...
2 problems,
you make it posible for a light to out manouver them, but you have made it to easy to do so, result, in low tier maches the lights will be op.. if u boest the agility of the lights it will be also posible for them to out manouver heavys/ assaults but it will demand a high skill lvl to do so

problem 2 nerfing twist and turn in assaults will make them horible to play (up to rage quiting lvl's)

Correct. If you want to get an idea as to how atrocious some heavies and assaults turn, get in a Stalker and attempt to turn with any medium or light. It simply can't be done 'easily'.

The same is true for any heavy or assault that lacks JJs to get faster jump turns in to 'keep up'. You can only do so much counter turning (turning in to their turn ) before you get totally frustrated by the complete lack of time on target.

That means putting your back to a building or cliff and intuiting when they will appear and shooting at the anticipated spot for max affect.

[InspectorG]

L3mming2, on 30 September 2015 - 05:48 AM, said:

nerfing the twist and turn of heavys and assaults will do the job but...
2 problems,
you make it posible for a light to out manouver them, but you have made it to easy to do so, result, in low tier maches the lights will be op.. if u boest the agility of the lights it will be also posible for them to out manouver heavys/ assaults but it will demand a high skill lvl to do so

problem 2 nerfing twist and turn in assaults will make them horible to play (up to rage quiting lvl's)

A. More powerful the Heavy/Assault (weapon tonnage/ hardpoint boating) more serious the nerf. Gives 'underpowered' Heavies/Assaults mobility to compensate(Summoner, Gargels, Quickdrawl, - could even include certain stock Omnimech builds-). This way play style can be divided into Power or Mobility. But not both.

B. I would include Structure nerfs to the choice boating OmniPods to the tune of 30%-50%. Should encourage the use of less popular pods unless the pilot wants to risk firepower for HP.

C. Choice Assaults/Heavies would receive bonus to Frontal Armor/Structure on CT/ST....maybe legs depending on map-revisions.

D. IS STD engines should give a 50% structure bonus. Something like that.

E. Mediums now have an anti-light role as they can boat more firepower/HP with comparable mobility.

The idea is most Heavies/Assaults become the Rooks and Bishops of the Chessboard where Lights and Mediums are the Knights.

Firepower currently has little to no cost and the current Meta favors heavies and Assaults(SCRO being the outlier).

This way Firepower has power but costs mobility...not unlike an artillery piece. Pugs would have to learn the hard fact of supporting the team earlier...which could be taught in the tutorial via exercises.

The Caveat being in how 'INFOTECH' is implemented as a balancing mechanic. IMO, PGI should focus on Radar and Comms, not locks unless firing without a lock carries a 50% damage penalty or something.

[InspectorG]

Lugh, on 30 September 2015 - 06:01 AM, said:

Correct. If you want to get an idea as to how atrocious some heavies and assaults turn, get in a Stalker and attempt to turn with any medium or light. It simply can't be done 'easily'.

The same is true for any heavy or assault that lacks JJs to get faster jump turns in to 'keep up'. You can only do so much counter turning (turning in to their turn ) before you get totally frustrated by the complete lack of time on target.

That means putting your back to a building or cliff and intuiting when they will appear and shooting at the anticipated spot for max affect.

Then what is the trade-off for the firepower for running Heavies/Assaults?

The only time an Assault like the Stalker(which i pilot frequently) gets ripped by a Light/fast Medium is if they are alone.

MWO is a game of concentrated firepower.

An Assault want to go alone to snipe...there should be risk. Assaults should need support, just like a Light needs its speed.
There is a reason you see few lights at high levels of play, they can be one shotted easily...FS and AC aside in some cases.

Alphas are creeping to 100 and Lights only have so much Leg/ST HP.

Easiest fix is nerf Agility for Heavies/Assaults in most cases and let the pilot pay in higher skill/ unit coordination to run them optimally.

There is nothing other than 'tonnage limits' to discourage powercreep. The above is one easy to implement solution.

[L3mming2]

InspectorG, on 30 September 2015 - 06:37 AM, said:

Then what is the trade-off for the firepower for running Heavies/Assaults?

The only time an Assault like the Stalker(which i pilot frequently) gets ripped by a Light/fast Medium is if they are alone.

MWO is a game of concentrated firepower.

An Assault want to go alone to snipe...there should be risk. Assaults should need support, just like a Light needs its speed.
There is a reason you see few lights at high levels of play, they can be one shotted easily...FS and AC aside in some cases.

Alphas are creeping to 100 and Lights only have so much Leg/ST HP.

Easiest fix is nerf Agility for Heavies/Assaults in most cases and let the pilot pay in higher skill/ unit coordination to run them optimally.

There is nothing other than 'tonnage limits' to discourage powercreep. The above is one easy to implement solution.

something to consider, assaults are not the favorite class heavy's are, so nerfing the agility of assaults will make them horible to play, and it will hurt the better class (the heavys) less...
and more inportantly this buff to lights will buff them the same (ore even more so in low tiers) at all tiers
we need to buff lights in a way that they get better, but they have a high skill celing.
insane agility is the best i can come up with as it will make accurate shooting and situational awarnes much harder when u exploid it to the fullest ...

[Deathlike]

L3mming2, on 24 September 2015 - 07:25 AM, said:

other intresting things; its clear that the idea that the higher the tier the more ppl think that lights are up and need to be buffed is corect.

Even the comp players say that the Lights are not in a good place, given the alphas that their larger brethren spew out.

It's self-evident once you actually reach higher tiers... mediocrity is punished.

Quote

==> we need a way that buffs lights in high tiers but dont make them op in low tiers..
any ideas on how to do that?

There's no way to "fix" that outside of having a shooting gallery of sorts in the Tutorial where you have to shoot moving Lights and TEACH PEOPLE TO LEG THE LIGHTS.

It's so simple (a concept), but people don't actually do it.

[InspectorG]

L3mming2, on 30 September 2015 - 08:43 AM, said:

something to consider, assaults are not the favorite class heavy's are

Depends on Solo drop, Group/Map, or CW and Unit strategy.

L3mming2, on 30 September 2015 - 08:43 AM, said:

so nerfing the agility of assaults will make them horible to play, and it will hurt the better class (the heavys) less...

I never said all heavies and assaults needed to be nerfed the same. Dire likely needs only a little nerf to its agility, Timby needs more.
Dire should be the average Assault Agility and modify from there.

Timby is the MWO equivalent of Akuma. Competitively there is no reason to take anything else unless playstyle is the reason.
Firepower+Speed+agility+good Hitboxes+ choice Hardpoints. Buff Lights all you want they will never match.

Just how much a buff can you give an already agile light to compete, or at least incentivize, choosing one over a Timby?

L3mming2, on 30 September 2015 - 08:43 AM, said:

and more inportantly this buff to lights will buff them the same (ore even more so in low tiers) at all tiers
we need to buff lights in a way that they get better, but they have a high skill celing.
insane agility is the best i can come up with as it will make accurate shooting and situational awarnes much harder when u exploid it to the fullest ...

But how to buff Lights? They already are agile, by definition. Too much more agility and you will likely reach diminishing returns and control will suffer.

Im all for Light engines coming with 10 truedub DHS. Im all for Energy heat quirks because thats really the only realistic weapon for them to use, maybe including SRMs. Dakka is too heavy and Ammo dependant. LRMs only work if boated or quirked 6-ways to Hell and back.

The Best current lights are FS and AC for a reason. Humanoid shape, lots of E hardpoints, Agile and Fast, JJ, Quirks. Ravens up next but thats due more to quirks.

Just how is more agility gonna help them from getting Legged/Cored in one shot?

We have 'INFOTECH' on the horizon but IMO, PGI needs to look at player/RADAR/COMM interface not locks. Though i could see a 50% reduction in damage firing on an unlocked target. Ammo would have to be re-balanced for that. This could give Lights some reprieve.