64 replies to this topic

[Khobai]

I do not believe PPCs are fine. However allowing FLPPD to find its way back into the game is also not fine.

The best compromise IMO is to increase PPC velocity to around 1500m/s, lower PPC heat, and make PPCs do ~33% spread damage.

Also give PPCs an electromagnetic hud disruption component that disrupts hud/sensor functions for a very short period. Theres other ways to buff weapons besides just numerical stats.

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Next PPC/ERPPC are supposed to be the ultimate 31 century energy weapon damage needs to go up
But at very high heat penalty

um no.

An AC/10 should be superior to a PPC in every way. Because the AC/10 weighs a heck of a lot more and consumes ammo.

If a PPC is ever better than an AC/10 youve failed at weapon balance completely.

Same applies to the ERPPC. Its entitled to extra range because of the extra heat. But in general the AC/10 should be considered the better weapon.

PPCs in general should be weaker than autocannons because theyre lower tonnage and not restricted by ammo. However that doesnt mean PPCs shouldnt have their own role to play in the game. PPCs should still be able to do things autocannons cant like having the ability to disrupt peoples HUDs/sensors temporarily. As well as having the longevity of being an energy weapon.

Edited by Khobai, 25 September 2015 - 12:11 PM.

[PurpleNinja]

I'll assume Clam Gaus are the ones mounted on a KGC arms.

[Victorion]

Yeah, the entire balance of longer range weapons does seem a bit off.

Personally I think the whole Gauss/PPC thing should be flip-flopped.

15 damage and insane travel speed with no heat is not balanced against the trivial charge up mechanic.

I think the damage values should be swapped, because landing a PPC hit and producing heat from it balances that much better then the triviality of hitting someone with a Gauss and learning it's charge up mechanic.

[FupDup]

Khobai, on 25 September 2015 - 12:02 PM, said:

um no.

An AC/10 should be superior to a PPC in every way. Because the AC/10 weighs a heck of a lot more and consumes ammo.

If a PPC is ever better than an AC/10 you failed at weapon balance completely.

Um no to you, sir.

The PPC should be better at long range fighting than the AC/10, with the AC/10 being better for brawling. At midrange skirmishing it should be pretty close, with perhaps a small edge to the AC/10 there.

There are other ways to balance the PPC against the AC/10 without making the PPC be ineffective at the long-ranges it was DESIGNED for. For example, perhaps we could make the AC/10 not suck, and actually be worth 2 IS Large Lasers like the tonnage it sacrifices would imply.

[Aiden Skye]

Thanks to all these meta nerfs, builds that use single / dual PPC's have taken significant collateral damage. I still think the best idea to desync PPC and Guass is to make it so you can't fire both at once. As the PPC is a heavy energy draw weapon and the Guass is a charging weapon.

[Davegt27]

Khobai, on 25 September 2015 - 12:02 PM, said:

I do not believe PPCs are fine. However allowing FLPPD to find its way back into the game is also not fine.

The best compromise IMO is to increase PPC velocity to around 1500m/s, lower PPC heat, and make PPCs do ~33% spread damage.

Also give PPCs an electromagnetic hud disruption component that disrupts hud/sensor functions for a very short period. Theres other ways to buff weapons besides just numerical stats.



um no.

An AC/10 should be superior to a PPC in every way. Because the AC/10 weighs a heck of a lot more and consumes ammo.

If a PPC is ever better than an AC/10 youve failed at weapon balance completely.

Same applies to the ERPPC. Its entitled to extra range because of the extra heat. But in general the AC/10 should be considered the better weapon.

I am taking vision of the game
As an energy weapon ppc/erppc should be the ultimate energy weapon

Why do I say that--we have nothing like it at this date and time it’s a future tech weapon
So the assumption is it is more advance

We do have cannons they can be better or the same

But we want cool advanced stuff for the game

Edited by Davegt27, 25 September 2015 - 12:14 PM.

[Khobai]

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The PPC should be better at long range fighting than the AC/10, with the AC/10 being better for brawling.

what are you talking about they practically have the same range in battletech.

AC/10 has a 450m range while the PPC has a 540m range. Its only a 90m range difference.

Thats not enough to make one a brawling weapon and the other a sniping weapon.


No one who wants to brawl uses an AC/10 they take the AC/20 for 2 tons more.

And no one who wants to snipe uses PPCs... they dont have the range for it.

Both the AC/10 and PPCs are medium range weapons. Neither is especially suited for brawling or sniping. But when comparing the two weapons the AC/10 should be outright better because it weighs nearly twice as much tonnage. It would be unfair for the PPC to even come close to the AC/10 in effectiveness given the tonnage difference. But like I said that doesnt mean the PPC still cant have its own niche by giving it an electromagnetic disruption ability

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I am taking vision of the game
As an energy weapon ppc/erppc should be the ultimate energy weapon

No weapon should be the ultimate weapon. Every weapon should have advantages and drawbacks. That is how you make sure theres a reason to use every weapon.

For example PPCs and LPL should be equal but different since both are 7 ton energy weapons. There should be a reason to use both but neither should be the ultimate weapon.

Edited by Khobai, 25 September 2015 - 12:36 PM.

[FupDup]

Khobai, on 25 September 2015 - 12:13 PM, said:

what are you talking about they practically have the same range in battletech.

AC/10 has a 450m range while the PPC has a 540m range. Its only a 90m range difference.

Thats not enough to make one a brawling weapon and the other a sniping weapon.

PPC: 540m, also has 90m min range
AC/10: 450m, no min range

ERPPC: 690m (no min range)

Edited by FupDup, 25 September 2015 - 12:21 PM.

[Lightfoot]

The real problem with MWO is that everything has been nerfed so much already that we have laser-brawl dominating the game above anything else. Lasers are the common balance point in MechWarrior, but they already own that. Knocking sub-laser weapons down further is just going to make MWO more and more boring. I have had enough brawling laser robots already and want MWO to break out of it. So buff PPCs, Gauss, and LRMs a bit, see how it goes.

[FupDup]

Lightfoot, on 25 September 2015 - 12:23 PM, said:

The real problem with MWO is that everything has been nerfed so much already that we have laser-brawl dominating the game above anything else. Lasers are the common balance point in MechWarrior, but they already own that. Knocking sub-laser weapons down further is just going to make MWO more and more boring. I have had enough brawling laser robots already and want MWO to break out of it. So buff PPCs, Gauss, and LRMs a bit, see how it goes.

Lasers are used at long range quite often, like the Clan ERML Clan LPL, and sorta Clan LPL. The IS has some mechs that snipe with the IS ERLL as well. Gauss Rifles are used at all ranges.

The meta is not brawling. Stop posting that everywhere. Brawling is actually in a poopy state right now because mechs with large alphas at mid range and long range can tear holes in brawlers before they get a chance to fire.

[Khobai]

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PPC: 540m, also has 90m min range

quite frankly the 90m min range is stupid and shouldve been removed ages ago.

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The real problem with MWO is that everything has been nerfed so much already that we have laser-brawl dominating the game above anything else. Lasers are the common balance point in MechWarrior, but they already own that.

The IS medium laser should be the common balance point for all other weapons.

However thats not where the current balance point is set. The current balance point is set around the CERML which is why IS get hyperquirks to buff their own lasers.

The CERML is a completely broken weapon. It only weighs 1 ton but its practically as good as a 5 ton ISLL. That is where a lot of the imbalance is coming from. The fact IS has to take 5 ton weapons to respond to clans taking 1 ton weapons.

The CERML needs to be reduced to 6 damage, 5 heat, 360m range to help restore the rightful superiority of the ISLL. A 5 ton weapon should be undeniably better than a 1 ton weapon. And then IS hyperquirks can be reduced/removed once the core weapon balance makes sense.

Edited by Khobai, 25 September 2015 - 12:38 PM.

[Pjwned]

PPCs do not need to be that fast at all, they were too fast at 1500 m/s so then they were a bit overnerfed and then brought back up to (their current speed of) 1100 m/s which is fine. If 1100 m/s speed isn't fast enough for you, then that's too damn bad.

ER PPCs on the other need to be buffed to something like 1750 m/s so that they're actually worth using over regular PPCs or even just worth using at all because its increased optimal range rarely matters at its current projectile speed.

Right now the PPC will hit its target at max optimal range in just under half a second, which is fine, and we just need to give ER PPCs the same (or very similar) treatment without making regular PPC shots too fast.

Edited by Pjwned, 25 September 2015 - 12:59 PM.

[Soy]

Did I seriously just read some mongo say that cERPPC needs more heat.

Do you guys know it has the worst DPS in the game. The **** cracksmoke are some of you on. That weapon is dead cuz the heat makes the damage curve behind EVERYTHING ELSE IN THE MATCH OVER TIME.

So your damage has to be very accurate and component-specific.

The **** does adding heat do to help that wep. More importantly, it's not a velocity problem.

[LordKnightFandragon]

IS PPC: 10/10, 3.5s, 1200ms
ISERPPC: 10/12, 3.75s, 1300ms
CERPPC: 13/15, 4.25s, 1250ms.

Gauss, IS and Clan: 15/1, 8s, 1750ms. No charge. 8 shots per ton,.

Issue with PPCs is thier heat, dmg, weight, space, size and ease of use vs overbuffed lasers. Close that gap a little and we might see PPCs being ok. As it is, LPL can be chain fired basically endlessly, or dual fired 2-3 times in a Mastered WHK before shutting down. CERPPC cannot single chain fire more then like 7 times before over heating. So, CLPL are doing 26 dmg for 20 heat while ERPPCs, both sides, deal 10 dmg for 15 heat....and have **** velocity, When that is fixed, PPCs will be good again.

Or nerf lasers.

Edited by LordKnightFandragon, 25 September 2015 - 01:09 PM.

[Davegt27]

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No weapon should be the ultimate weapon. Every weapon should have advantages and drawbacks. That is how you make sure theres a reason to use every weapon.

For example PPCs and LPL should be equal but different since both are 7 ton energy weapons. There should be a reason to use both but neither should be the ultimate weapon.

You’re looking at things wrong

In your mind balance is having everything and everyone the same

I have no desire to balance, now fun I am all about that
Roles on the battlefield very cool

Ultimate weapon you bet

Is it going to cost you something yes it sure will
How about having classes of weapons that are different
To me that would be great

Medium lasers are better than small lasers then comes large lasers then PPCs’ all a step above the previous level, all with greater power and greater penalty

When I played MW2 the PPC was the coolest weapon in the game but I never used it the heat penalty was too high for my taste

We have different goals and vision

Mine is a vision of tactics and a different style of balance (using increased ttk and armor)

Weapons I want those suckers firing using heat for balance yeah it’s a way but not the only way

Picture a match where you can hold your lance of lights back and have them function as Cavalry

You could only do that with an increased TTK

Right now we need every "gun" because your team will die to quick other wise

Edited by Davegt27, 25 September 2015 - 01:39 PM.

[Khobai]

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In your mind balance is having everything and everyone the same

nope.

I believe I said "equal but different" which is not the same thing as having everything be the same.

For example, the LPL and PPC should be equal, since both weigh 7 tons. However they should not be exactly the same.

The LPL should do more damage, be hitscan, have a shorter cooldown, have shorter range, lower heat, and should do damage over time.

The PPC should do less damage, be a projectile, have a longer cooldown, do its damage instantly, have longer range, higher heat, have linear damage dropoff under 90m (instead of 100% dropoff), and the PPC should also have a HUD disruption ability that causes sensors/ECM to go haywire for 1-2 seconds.

The two weapons can be radically different in characteristics but still end up roughly the same in terms of balance.

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Ultimate weapon you bet

yeah no. this isnt macross or gundam. there are no particle beams or buster cannons.

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Picture a match where you can hold your lance of lights back and have them function as Calvary

i assume you mean cavalry. calvary is where jesus was crucified

and no light mechs shouldnt function anything like cavalry. thats not even close to the role they should fill in MWO.

Edited by Khobai, 25 September 2015 - 01:34 PM.

[Mcgral18]

Soy, on 25 September 2015 - 01:05 PM, said:

Did I seriously just read some mongo say that cERPPC needs more heat.

Do you guys know it has the worst DPS in the game. The **** cracksmoke are some of you on. That weapon is dead cuz the heat makes the damage curve behind EVERYTHING ELSE IN THE MATCH OVER TIME.

So your damage has to be very accurate and component-specific.

The **** does adding heat do to help that wep. More importantly, it's not a velocity problem.

Who said that?

And it is a velocity problem...not to the degree I'm saying, but I want multiple viable weapon systems.

[Lightfoot]

FupDup, on 25 September 2015 - 12:27 PM, said:

Lasers are used at long range quite often, like the Clan ERML Clan LPL, and sorta Clan LPL. The IS has some mechs that snipe with the IS ERLL as well. Gauss Rifles are used at all ranges.

The meta is not brawling. Stop posting that everywhere. Brawling is actually in a poopy state right now because mechs with large alphas at mid range and long range can tear holes in brawlers before they get a chance to fire.

The game boils down to brawling (under 350-400 meters for Brawling XP score) very fast, the long range phase is quite short and unlikely to even occur on many maps. If a player can extend the long range time, that is a skill. MWO needs skill related abilities of all kinds. The meta is most certainly brawling if that is combat under 350-400 meters. Most combat DPS is under 350 meters from what I see in my games.

I think half of MWO players want brawling and half want something else. I want it all. My mechs are built to brawl or go long range the trade-off is they do neither really well and will die to a range specialized mech unless I move to a different range. So I have to watch out for 2xGauss as much as 7xMPLs. The main thing enforcing Brawling OP-ness is laser duration. You know, at 500 meters your lasers will hit 3 to 4 mech sections. That erraticness drops geometrically with range till at 350 meter lasers core targets and don't miss at all.

So, if you like brawler builds you notice being out of range much more since your mech is doing nothing till you can get in range, but that choice was made by the player in Mechlab. The lesson is use a mixed range load-out and play the curve at the cost of ultra high short range DPS.

[Deathlike]

I think I agree with most of what was said about PPCs+Gauss, with a few notes+exceptions.

PPC and Clan ERPPC velocity needs to be restored to something around 1500 m/s. That seemed to work and that shouldn't be problematic. Increasing cooldown will address the spamming part (since that is critical to DPS/FLD rate of spam).

The PPC needs to go back to "exponential damage" as making it linear alters the damage curve too favorably... though probably not superior to the current LPL, but it's a much favorable tradeoff when it's linear, so the drawback needs to use the same curve as Clan LRMs have @ min range.

The IS ERPPC is really problematic. I think a super boost in velocity is needed (in conjunction with a slight heat reduction to 14 or so)... but 3K m/s is crazy... maybe 2500 m/s or so (or adjust it with Gauss velocity - like ~1800 m/s for both Gauss, and ~2100 m/s for ERPPC - yes, this is an indirect Gauss nerf)? It becomes super pinpoint at that point, but you're trading high heat and no damage bump that the Clan ERPPC gains, so you might as well make it nearly instant. If you have to balance it more strictly, you could just leave the heat unchanged or have a hefty cooldown penalty (6 second for IS ERPPC, 6.5 Clan ERPPC - something along those lines).

Those are the only things I'm primarily concerned with (with tweaks to the individual aspects of IS Gauss and Clan Gauss seem OK, but increasing cooldown for both would be the most important probably... to at least a 5 second cooldown - a bit more for the Clan version..).

Edited by Deathlike, 25 September 2015 - 01:42 PM.

[Khobai]

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The game boils down to brawling (under 350-400 meters for Brawling XP score) very fast, the long range phase is quite short and unlikely to even occur on many maps.

270m and less is what I consider brawling. Because thats the max range of SRMs which I consider THE brawling weapon. 270m is also the optimum range of the AC/20.

270m-600m I would consider more like medium range.

And 600+m I would consider long range where your weapons like gauss hit their optimum ranges.


Most fighting happens around medium range. But brawling is definitely suffering in this game due to the weak state of SRMs, machine guns, etc... really the only good brawling weapons are the AC20 and pulse lasers.

I definitely think a lot of the long-range weapons need to be nerfed and several of the brawling weapons need to be buffed.

Edited by Khobai, 25 September 2015 - 01:46 PM.