64 replies to this topic

[Lightfoot]

LordKnightFandragon, on 25 September 2015 - 01:07 PM, said:

IS PPC: 10/10, 3.5s, 1200ms
ISERPPC: 10/12, 3.75s, 1300ms
CERPPC: 13/15, 4.25s, 1250ms.

Gauss, IS and Clan: 15/1, 8s, 1750ms. No charge. 8 shots per ton,.

Issue with PPCs is thier heat, dmg, weight, space, size and ease of use vs overbuffed lasers. Close that gap a little and we might see PPCs being ok. As it is, LPL can be chain fired basically endlessly, or dual fired 2-3 times in a Mastered WHK before shutting down. CERPPC cannot single chain fire more then like 7 times before over heating. So, CLPL are doing 26 dmg for 20 heat while ERPPCs, both sides, deal 10 dmg for 15 heat....and have **** velocity, When that is fixed, PPCs will be good again.

Or nerf lasers.

PPCs are okay if you don't boat them. Mix it up. Heat curtails PPC/ERPPC recycle for this reason. The result is you pay for taking each PPC so you just don't boat them and they are fine. So many folks want to build boats, but you have more fun if you do not.

[Davegt27]

Khobai, on 25 September 2015 - 01:11 PM, said:

nope.
I believe I said "equal but different" which is not the same thing as having everything be the same.

For example, the LPL and PPC should be equal, since both weigh 7 tons. However they should not be exactly the same.

The LPL should do more damage, be hitscan, have a shorter cooldown, have shorter range, lower heat, and should do damage over time.

The PPC should do less damage, be a projectile, have a longer cooldown, do its damage instantly, have longer range, higher heat, have linear damage dropoff under 90m (instead of 100% dropoff), and the PPC should also have a HUD disruption ability that causes sensors/ECM to go haywire for 1-2 seconds.

The two weapons can be radically different in characteristics but still end up roughly the same in terms of balance.



yeah no. this isnt macross or gundam. there are no particle beams or buster cannons.



i assume you mean cavalry. Calvary is where Jesus was crucified

And no light mechs shouldn’t function anything like cavalry. That’s not even close to the role they should fill in MWO.

Lol yeah cavalry

Like I said different vision and view points

I don’t think LPL should be better than ERPPC's

Having LPLs' weigh the same and do more damage than ERPPCs' make ERPPCs' worthless

Since they put out way way more heat (unusable in my book)

Having Lights fill a role as Cavalry/strike team or sappers are all different roles they could play

And more lance oriented
Now you have a few super quirked light variants’ that do that

Just different opinions and view on the subject

[CtrlAltWheee]

AntiCitizenJuan, on 25 September 2015 - 10:29 AM, said:

I'd support the buffs you're proposing for IS Gauss, but at the same time both the IS and C variants need longer cooldowns.
Like an extra second, or second and a half IMO

+1 I think added cooldowns are effective for defining it as a sniper weapon. Also would be okay with only one can be fired at a time.

Increasing cooldowns across all clan weapons seems a reasonable way to differentiate clan tech from IS while still keeping the flavor of superiority.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Lightfoot, on 25 September 2015 - 01:42 PM, said:

PPCs are okay if you don't boat them. Mix it up. Heat curtails PPC/ERPPC recycle for this reason. The result is you pay for taking each PPC so you just don't boat them and they are fine. So many folks want to build boats, but you have more fun if you do not.

I only boat them on the Warhawk because the Warhawk is a 4x CERPPC Mech. They are not even viable chain fired on that mech, supposedly one with the best heat dissipation in the game.

[Mystere]

Mcgral18, on 25 September 2015 - 10:21 AM, said:

Since the death of the Poptarts, mainly due to HoverJets™, PPC nerfs have yet to be revised.

Mcgral18, on 25 September 2015 - 11:08 AM, said:

With HoverJets, you won't get many poptarts again. Vindicator and Nova? Not exactly gigantic threats.

I say fix JJs to allow the poptarts back! Wouldn't that by itself threaten the preponderance of laservomit?

[Funkin Disher]

I still really like the idea of the charge mechanic increasing velocity for PPCs and Gauss, and able to be fired at any point of that charge. Make the charge time longer for Clan versions.

[Mcgral18]

Deathlike, on 25 September 2015 - 01:39 PM, said:

I think I agree with most of what was said about PPCs+Gauss, with a few notes+exceptions.

PPC and Clan ERPPC velocity needs to be restored to something around 1500 m/s. That seemed to work and that shouldn't be problematic. Increasing cooldown will address the spamming part (since that is critical to DPS/FLD rate of spam).

The PPC needs to go back to "exponential damage" as making it linear alters the damage curve too favorably... though probably not superior to the current LPL, but it's a much favorable tradeoff when it's linear, so the drawback needs to use the same curve as Clan LRMs have @ min range.

The IS ERPPC is really problematic. I think a super boost in velocity is needed (in conjunction with a slight heat reduction to 14 or so)... but 3K m/s is crazy... maybe 2500 m/s or so (or adjust it with Gauss velocity - like ~1800 m/s for both Gauss, and ~2100 m/s for ERPPC - yes, this is an indirect Gauss nerf)? It becomes super pinpoint at that point, but you're trading high heat and no damage bump that the Clan ERPPC gains, so you might as well make it nearly instant. If you have to balance it more strictly, you could just leave the heat unchanged or have a hefty cooldown penalty (6 second for IS ERPPC, 6.5 Clan ERPPC - something along those lines).

Those are the only things I'm primarily concerned with (with tweaks to the individual aspects of IS Gauss and Clan Gauss seem OK, but increasing cooldown for both would be the most important probably... to at least a 5 second cooldown - a bit more for the Clan version..).

I guess more reasonable numbers would make sense. I want a different feel to them, though.


I liked the sound of 3Km/s, but it is a bit excessive. Still wish I could try it.

[Khobai]

Quote

Having LPLs' weigh the same and do more damage than ERPPCs' make ERPPCs' worthless

not really since ERPPCs have way more range. In general shorter range weapons should do more damage than longer range weapons... because more damage makes up for the lack of range.

the biggest reason ERPPCs suck is because having more range doesnt help if you have slow projectile speed.

But fixing the ERPPC isnt as simple as just increasing its projectile speed because then you have to worry about ERPPC/Gauss builds being abused again. Long-range frontloaded pinpoint damage is not something we want to see making a comeback in this game.

Certainly the ERPPC needs a projectile speed increase. But I also think it needs a splash damage component like the CERPPC to spread out the pinpoint damage a bit more. To make up for the damage reduction due to splash damage reduce its heat to like 13-13.5 and give it a HUD disruption ability. I think youd end up with a pretty balanced weapon then that adds some unique utility to the game.

Edited by Khobai, 25 September 2015 - 04:39 PM.

[Davegt27]

Quote

not really since ERPPCs have way more range. In general shorter range weapons should do more damage than longer range weapons... because more damage makes up for the lack of range.

I guess I can play this game also

We can make small lasers do 14 damage doesn’t bother me

We could make PPC/ERPPC the same range as the LPL you could increase the speed of the PPC/ERPPC
The problem with the heat would still be there

[Elizander]

Mcgral18, on 25 September 2015 - 11:44 AM, said:

And some do. That's the issue with SRMs right now, they do not.

I would gladly take some heat reduction for SRMs in place of higher damage.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

I'd consider having PPCs/ERPPCs be faster than Gauss, due to Energy vs. Projectiles.

If we want to see Gauss remain Hypersonic there is room to go down to 1710 m/s for a velocity reduction. Then PPCs/ERPPCs could go above that closer to ~2,000 m/s and can remain below that.

---

But I think the underlying issue here is the Heat System that still needs to be addressed. Dissipation is far too low for our rate of fire and Capacity is far too high. And maybe meet in the middle with the disparity.

So if Dissipation can keep pace better, then such discussions of weapons that would seem to fall into the medium range bracket can be more easily balanced against each other, such as the AC/10 to PPC comparisons.

For example, if we multiplied Dissipation by the same rate most weapons got boosted, we'd have SHS at 0.25 each and DHS at 0.50 each. Although could start with more conservative numbers. such as 0.15 for SHS and 0.3 for DHS. These values would simply need to account for 2x Cool Run and remove all Heat Gen quirks, or simply remove both.

And for weapons, removing Fast Fire and reducing quirks and replacing Cooldown quirks with something else like Velocity / Beam Duration should be explored.

Then if Capacity was fixed there would be less reason to have the multipliers on Heat Scale (ghost heat) so high with reduced cap also reducing some mixes of high alpha damage. Remove Heat Containment and reduce the gifted 30 to 14. External Dubs could also stay reduced, and consider giving IS a leg up with Clan DHS providing less Capacity per DHS with Externals.

Edited by Praetor Knight, 25 September 2015 - 07:17 PM.

[FupDup]

Praetor Knight, on 25 September 2015 - 07:16 PM, said:

...
And for weapons, removing Fast Fire and reducing quirks and replacing Cooldown quirks with something else like Velocity / Beam Duration should be explored....

Velocity and beam duration are probably more valuable than cooldowns on the majority of weapons, just so ya know...

[Nothing Whatsoever]

FupDup, on 25 September 2015 - 07:17 PM, said:

Velocity and beam duration are probably more valuable than cooldowns on the majority of weapons, just so ya know...

Indeed, but a Lvl 5 Module providing only 5% boost shouldn't be too much of an issue, that's only 100 m/s more for an AC/2.

And a 0.375 reduction on a C-SPL.

[El Bandito]

Give ERPPC and CERPPC 120 meter minimum range. PPC will retain 90 meter minimum range.
If it is gonna be a sniper weapon, let it suck at close range fights.

[Flaming oblivion]

LMAO buff ppc's and gauss still useable and powerful weapon systems, Gauss being up at the top with lasers.


Not missiles (LRMS, clan/IS srms (hit detection) clan/IS lrms and IS streaks) , machine guns , flamers, ac 2s.10s , LBX, clan acs in general , Lets not buff the weapons that are completely worthless / almost completely worthless.


Lets buff the top tier weapons that actually are far to powerful in the right hands

makes sense

SMH

Edited by Flaming oblivion, 25 September 2015 - 07:32 PM.

[Mcgral18]

Flaming oblivion, on 25 September 2015 - 07:31 PM, said:

LMAO buff ppc's and gauss still useable and powerful weapon systems, Gauss being up at the top with lasers.


Not missiles (LRMS, clan/IS srms (hit detection) clan/IS lrms and IS streaks) , machine guns , flamers, ac 2s.10s , LBX, clan acs in general , Lets not buff the weapons that are completely worthless / almost completely worthless.


Lets buff the top tier weapons that actually are far to powerful in the right hands

makes sense

SMH

I see you don't read the forums very often, and/or have poor reading comprehension.

[Flaming oblivion]

they should be ignored till weapons that are flat out/ near worthless are fixed to fix a weapon that's really good in gausses case, Average to above average in the ppcs case, While there are weapons that are flat out bad.

Would break weapon balance even further.

No matter the buff.

[Mcgral18]

Flaming oblivion, on 25 September 2015 - 07:40 PM, said:

they should be ignored till weapons that are flat out/ near worthless are fixed to fix a weapon that's really good in gausses case, Average to above average in the ppcs case, While there are weapons that are flat out bad.

Would break weapon balance even further.

No matter the buff.

Having 3 viable weapon systems is worse than having 2 viable weapon systems?

[Flaming oblivion]

They need to fix the bad weapons , Missiles pretty much accross the board clan streaks being the arguable exception, Flamers need fixing, machine guns need fixing, The lbx need fixing, Theres even a argument for the Ac/2 and 10. (clan AC's all need fixing)

The only weapons in a truly good place now are lasers (arguably not small lasers unless your fast) and gauss.

And ppc's are in a fairly average place along with the ac20 and 5 (on certain mechs the 5's usable and the 20is powerful on the right loadout)

Don't buff one of the strongest weapons in game with a average weapon when almost everything else is heavily underperforming , Not if you're interested in balance.

[xXBagheeraXx]

Good ideas but CLan and IS gauss just need longer cooldowns and a much reduced explosion chance...also would 10 HP be too much to ask? Badly needs its HP back.

I like the PPC velocity ideas but then they would need to remove any velocity quirks on IS mechs....It would be nice for my Warhawk prime to be dangerous again...

Lightfoot, on 25 September 2015 - 01:42 PM, said:

PPCs are okay if you don't boat them. Mix it up. Heat curtails PPC/ERPPC recycle for this reason. The result is you pay for taking each PPC so you just don't boat them and they are fine. So many folks want to build boats, but you have more fun if you do not.

Even carrying 2 of these is kind of a waste of tonnage. Even with well over 20 sinks...

and mechs that where BUILT to boat these like the awesome and the Warhawk are largely ineffective.