73 replies to this topic

[Stijnovic]

Yes! Heat cap fixed at 30, this is exactly what I have always wanted!

Also, penalties for running hot!

And yes, we also need convergence to be a thing, separate for both arms and fixed convergence for torso-weapons. Together with weapon recoil...

I'm not sure if this will push people towards dual-gauss-builds more than the current system. I think any system does that?

Also, why is the heat in MWO displayed as a percentage..?

[adamts01]

Do you all realize how hard it'll be to hit a fast light with ECM if this convergence thing is implemented? You can't target him, they're much smaller than your weapons are wide. At best case you'll hit one leg with 1/3 or 1/2 your loadout if your aim is dead on. I'm even a light pilot and I'm bringing this up. It's all fine and dandy for the big slow targets but for a light zipping in and out of cover, in front and behind you it'll be a nightmare.

Edited by adamts01, 15 October 2015 - 08:37 AM.

[Rokollus]

Perhaps we (my buddies) have played TT wrong all along but heat was generated every turn unless you stood still. Movement in general would increase your heat generation. Forget weapon discharge just a sprint across the map would increase your heat. Of course a mech could dissipate most of the movement heat per turn, but none the less you still were gaining a point or two and it was not hard to overheat in move and shoot situation.

Wouldnt a steady real heat generation like exists in TT encourage tactics for every weight class?

[adamts01]

Rokollus, on 15 October 2015 - 08:50 AM, said:

Perhaps we (my buddies) have played TT wrong all along but heat was generated every turn unless you stood still. Movement in general would increase your heat generation. Forget weapon discharge just a sprint across the map would increase your heat. Of course a mech could dissipate most of the movement heat per turn, but none the less you still were gaining a point or two and it was not hard to overheat in move and shoot situation.

Wouldnt a steady real heat generation like exists in TT encourage tactics for every weight class?

That is already in game. It's minimal but It can make a difference in a fight.

[Lugh]

Khobai, on 15 October 2015 - 06:48 AM, said:

Except clan gauss is only 12 tons and 6 crits. So its really not all that heavy or bulky. Clan mechs also get built-in CASE to help mitigate the explosion damage. Not to mention CXL is less susceptible to being destroyed by gauss explosions.



You still need a spotter, spotter gets hit by gauss, no more spotter. And then theres Radar deprivation. You cant LRM what you cant see. And ECM will still help vs LRMs by making their lock-on times pretty ridiculous. Even if you can see me and get a lock ill just move behind cover and your LRMs still wont hit. And theres also the triple AMS kitfox which totally facerapes LRM boats. So really LRMs arnt gonna counter gauss builds at all...

Plus youre going to be incurring heat penalties by firing LRMs. While Gauss mechs wont be incurring heat penalties at all. Again this whole idea of heat scale penalties is poorly conceived and will literally just elevate Gauss from being slightly overpowered to being absolute god-level.

I just have to chime in here with somewhere between 1/4 and 1/8 the total weight of your mech isn't heavy?!?! BWHAHAHAHA

Add in the fact that you have a LOT of clan mechs with so many slots locked for Heat sinks and jump jets,etc.... and you don't even begin to compensate for that 'savings' in weight / crit space.

[stjobe]

adamts01, on 15 October 2015 - 08:24 AM, said:

Do you all realize how hard it'll be to hit a fast light with ECM if this convergence thing is implemented? You can't target him, they're much smaller than your weapons are wide. At best case you'll hit one leg with 1/3 or 1/2 your loadout if your aim is dead on. I'm even a light pilot and I'm bringing this up. It's all fine and dandy for the big slow targets but for a light zipping in and out of cover, in front and behind you it'll be a nightmare.

So make weapons converge on locked targets but not otherwise. They're already experimenting with lock-on benefits on the PTS (shorter range on lasers for non-locked targets).

[adamts01]

I play mostly clans. You're right, some just can't gauss. But the ones who can do it well and the rest have their own thing they bring. Pretty much. Not the Summoner. Or the Kit Fox. foxOr the Mist Lynx. Or the Mad Dog really. Those 4 need some quirks pretty badly.

[adamts01]

stjobe, on 15 October 2015 - 10:34 AM, said:

So make weapons converge on locked targets but not otherwise. They're already experimenting with lock-on benefits on the PTS (shorter range on lasers for non-locked targets).

I must not have typed that clearly enough. I don't word good. You won't be able to kill ecm lights because you can't target them and if your weapons don't converge most of your weapons will miss. And like I said earlier. A raven 3L. How will you counter snipe that? You can't lock on and without convergence he can get pinpoint and you cantcan't.

[cSand]

My name is cSand and I support this thread

couple this heat system with as 627 suggested, CoF when not having an "R target"

music to my mech ears

[Mazzyplz]

i think all the heat scale ideas are stupid.
just my 2c

not going to post why all over again, done that in all the other post from tabletop 'warriors'

just inserting some dissenting opinion into this tabletop groupthink

Edited by Mazzyplz, 15 October 2015 - 12:24 PM.

[Night Thastus]

Thanks for all the replies everyone!

I thought this thread was dead and buried a couple weeks ago, so I haven't been checking it, but I'll be glad to reply a bit now!

Here are my current comments on your ideas so far:

1: Gauss would be powerful. However, I think it's easy enough to balance. Simply increase the cooldown time as it was in older games like MW3 and MW4. Sure, it's low-heat, but that doesn't mean crap when you aren't doing damage for several seconds while the enemy is pounding you. You might take one, but you'd need to carry backups. As well, dropping the ammo to 8 per ton (lore amount) might help.

2: As I said in my post, I really don't want to get into convergence. While I do think it's a solution, so many people are so incredibly again dealing with RNG weaponry (even though some games like Elite:Dangerous implement it well!) that I think it's not worth discussing. It'll get everyone riled up and ignoring the base issue here - The heat system.

3: Again, other tweaks to the heat system I mentioned (penalties for running hot or heat being generated by movement) are interesting, but would need to be taken after looking at the rest. I'm not sure how a 30 heat scale with TrueDubs and no Ghost Heat would play out. It'd need some time to tell if heat penalties/heat generation would need to be tweaked. It's hard to guess what's best without testing it first.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

Mazzyplz, on 15 October 2015 - 12:22 PM, said:

i think all the heat scale ideas are stupid.
just my 2c

not going to post why all over again, done that in all the other post from tabletop 'warriors'

just inserting some dissenting opinion into this tabletop groupthink

You need to look at Heat Capacity in the original context. HS provide a buffer, so then at 2.5x from original stats translated to realtime is 14 to the first override-able shutdown. (So realtime capacity the unit is 0.4 at 1.0x, 0.8 at 2.0x and 1.0 at 2.5x)

So if we have 20 DHS, those provide 40 Capacity + 14 of the Scale for a total of 54. Enough to fire three ERPPCs in one instance for example as could be done in the original.

And what I often read is the hard part is looking at how Heat Dissipates over time. So having DHS at 0.4 each gets us pretty close to how heat dissipated in the original with MWO's higher rate of fire. (It should actually be at 0.5 per DHS at 2.5x).

Here is a chart going to an orignal level of 50 and how it should look for MWO at 2.5x original Capacity with Dissipation at 2.0x.





So it's not stupid, its players not breaking it down enough and looking at how to transfer the spirit of the turn based system to realtime. And earlier titles simply went with 30 or 60 Caps and boosted Dissipation Rates.

[Dimento Graven]

Khobai, on 15 October 2015 - 06:12 AM, said:

....gauss is already overpowered now.
...

So ignorantly untrue.

Gauss is the most penalized/restricted weapon in this game:

1. Ammo dependent, eventually you just run out of shots.
2. It's a time bomb. With a 90% chance at exploding when hit, and having the largest number of crit slots, chances are your gauss rifle will end up exploding and killing you, EVEN WHEN, you have no ammo and no charge.
3. It has a charge up cycle. No other weapon in the game suffers this.
4. It has a hard limit of not being able to fire more than two at a time, period, no other weapon has this limitation.
5. On some 'mechs it's impossible to chain fire two gauss rifles, no other weapon has this issue.
6. When a crybaby idiot player gets killed when hit by one, he immediately screams "OP" and runs to the forums hoping to get PGI to make changes that will allow him to not die when playing stupid.

And many more...

[Night Thastus]

Dimento Graven, on 15 October 2015 - 12:52 PM, said:

So ignorantly untrue.

Gauss is the most penalized/restricted weapon in this game:

1. Ammo dependent, eventually you just run out of shots.
2. It's a time bomb. With a 90% chance at exploding when hit, and having the largest number of crit slots, chances are your gauss rifle will end up exploding and killing you, EVEN WHEN, you have no ammo and no charge.
3. It has a charge up cycle. No other weapon in the game suffers this.
4. It has a hard limit of not being able to fire more than two at a time, period, no other weapon has this limitation.
5. On some 'mechs it's impossible to chain fire two gauss rifles, no other weapon has this issue.
6. When a crybaby idiot player gets killed when hit by one, he immediately screams "OP" and runs to the forums hoping to get PGI to make changes that will allow him to not die when playing stupid.

And many more...

Very true!

But we have to pander to whiners and "OP"-criers. It's the way this game is. If they whine it's "OP" then nerfs it shall receive.

[Khobai]

Quote

So ignorantly untrue.

Then why is gauss is on practically every single top tier meta build there is? Oh because it is true.

Quote

1. Ammo dependent, eventually you just run out of shots.
2. It's a time bomb. With a 90% chance at exploding when hit, and having the largest number of crit slots, chances are your gauss rifle will end up exploding and killing you, EVEN WHEN, you have no ammo and no charge.
3. It has a charge up cycle. No other weapon in the game suffers this.
4. It has a hard limit of not being able to fire more than two at a time, period, no other weapon has this limitation.
5. On some 'mechs it's impossible to chain fire two gauss rifles, no other weapon has this issue.
6. When a crybaby idiot player gets killed when hit by one, he immediately screams "OP" and runs to the forums hoping to get PGI to make changes that will allow him to not die when playing stupid.

1) so bring more ammo? if youre using the right mechs then tonnage for ammo isnt a problem.

2) clans get built-in CASE. CXL isnt destroyed when your side torso gets destroyed either. so no the chances of it killing you are pretty small. especially if you do what I do on my dual gauss ebonjag and put both your gauss on the same side of your mech and torso twist your non-gauss side towards the enemy to shield yourself. lern2torsotwist.

3) thats why you carry lasers too. you snapshot with the lasers. and you only fire the gauss when the chargeup permits you to hit the enemy. And if youre exceptionally good with gauss like I am you can inituitively time your chargeups or hold your charge for just the right amount of time so chargeup is basically a non-issue.

4) you only need to fire two at a time. the rest of your loadout is lasers. and youre doing a highly competitive 50-70 damage alpha strike.

5) why are you chainfiring gauss? the hell?

6) and in this particular case the crybabies happened to be right. gauss/laser was extremely OP. hence why its getting nerfed. the clan laser nerfs are on the PTR now and the clan gauss nerf is coming soon.

Edited by Khobai, 15 October 2015 - 01:33 PM.

[Night Thastus]

Khobai, on 15 October 2015 - 01:15 PM, said:

Then why is gauss is on practically every single top tier meta build there is? Oh because it is true.

And what is that gauss mixed with? 5-6 ER Mediums. Before the nerf, that is, that's a very powerful build. With a lower heat-cap, the low fire rate and limited external weaponry would make those "meta-builds" consisting of gauss and lasers to become much weaker.

[Mazzyplz]

Praetor Knight, on 15 October 2015 - 12:44 PM, said:

You need to look at Heat Capacity in the original context. HS provide a buffer, so then at 2.5x from original stats translated to realtime is 14 to the first override-able shutdown. (So realtime capacity the unit is 0.4 at 1.0x, 0.8 at 2.0x and 1.0 at 2.5x)

So if we have 20 DHS, those provide 40 Capacity + 14 of the Scale for a total of 54. Enough to fire three ERPPCs in one instance for example as could be done in the original.

And what I often read is the hard part is looking at how Heat Dissipates over time. So having DHS at 0.4 each gets us pretty close to how heat dissipated in the original with MWO's higher rate of fire. (It should actually be at 0.5 per DHS at 2.5x).

Here is a chart going to an orignal level of 50 and how it should look for MWO at 2.5x original Capacity with Dissipation at 2.0x.





So it's not stupid, its players not breaking it down enough and looking at how to transfer the spirit of the turn based system to realtime. And earlier titles simply went with 30 or 60 Caps and boosted Dissipation Rates.

nice little chart bro; but this heat scale nonsense penalizes mechs like the awesome, the trebuchet, the quickdraw -
while mechs that use ammo or shoot gauss go unpunished; - and it doesn't make sense to bring clan novacat into the game with it's all energy hardpoints

GREAT BALANCE DURRRRRR.

so how do you offset this? you either don't and you ruin the game more than it is now

or you have to add all sorts of special case scenarios where some mechs or some weapons BLABLABLA.

this idea sucks sooooo bad.

it only reverts the meta back to when ballistic had 2x range for absolutely no reason

NO steps forward.
taken several steps back

[TheArisen]

I'd much rather they redo the heat scale than implement this weird lock on mechanic.

30 might be a little low because some mechs are total energy boats.

[Beartech]

I agree with every one of your points. This sound like a fun game.
However, they would have to un Nerf clan weapons if they are running like they do in TT.

[Dimento Graven]

Khobai, on 15 October 2015 - 01:15 PM, said:

Then why is gauss is on practically every single top tier meta build there is? Oh because it is true.

False.

It's on some 'meta' builds, and some non-meta builds.

I suppose you wet yourself every time you see a gauss wielding Urbanmech, Firestarter, Cicada, et al?

The reason it's on meta builds is because of HEAT. 15 pin point front loaded damage for low heat with a long range is definitely something to add to your laser/AC vomit build.

HOWEVER, and this is the key piece that you refuse to acknowledge, or are ignorant of, gauss in of itself, with the limitations currently imposed has the lowest DPS comparable to every other weapon of similar weight and size. The weapon has a 3.16 DPS, with a MAXIMUM DPS, dual wielding of 6.32.

Considering that an AC/2 has a DPS of 2.78, and you can fire more than 3 at a time if you so choose, it out DPS's the gauss.

When talking a DPS/ton comparison the AC/2 more than doubles the gauss.

Sorry, your false cries of "OP" on the gauss are from ignorance and lack of skill, not from any actual real issue.