444 replies to this topic

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Nightmare1, on 29 September 2015 - 06:45 AM, said:

Simple. I can get my IS Mechs moving as fast or faster than any of the Clan Mechs and, since agility is tied to engine size, that also means I have better agility. A lot of Clan Mechs, like the Daishi and Timber, don't fare well against brawlers because of narrow torso arcs. I can dance around them and shred them without them getting off so much as a shot with my Lights and Mediums.

There are very few that can match the top Clan mechs in the medium/heavy bracket AND still be as durable. Sure you can make a SHD, GRF, WVR, or KTO as fast as the Stormcrow, but none of them will have the durability and the firepower. The heavies are even worse since most IS heavies are stuck with sub-81kph speed engines limits. The ones that aren't are generally bad (DGN, non-5K QKDs).

As for brawling, I think you underestimate the Timber as a brawler too much, the Timber is a better brawler than the TDR-5SS and while the Dire can't brawl, no one cares because it obliterates things at range.

Nightmare1, on 29 September 2015 - 06:45 AM, said:

I own Clan Mechs and ran them for a while. Even before all the nerfs, I was greatly disappointed with them. They feel fragile, like glass cannons. IS Mechs feel tanky by comparison. With all the quirks now, there really doesn't feel like much of a power disparity. IS has better pinpoint, heat, and brawling. Clans have better range. The only time Clans are a "problem" for the IS is when the IS team is too stupid to push in close and negate the Clans' range advantage.

I'm starting to think we are playing very different games, because most teams that push against a Clan firing line, get decimated if there is any semblance of coordination.

Nightmare1, on 29 September 2015 - 06:45 AM, said:

As for missiles, well, that one's pretty obvious. LRMs are a very sad joke.

FTFY, the exception being the Lurmback.

Nightmare1, on 29 September 2015 - 11:13 AM, said:

I've used them. Again, say it with me now, "cookie-cutter."

So what are we considering "cookie-cutter", anything that is actually effective?

[Deathlike]

Nightmare1, on 29 September 2015 - 11:13 AM, said:

i.e. - Go run the meta.

Boring. Utterly, boring. That's why I say that the Clans are one-trick ponies; you have to use the cookie-cutter builds to be competitive with them. You don't have the flexibility to run non-meta builds; the Clans are just too weak to do that.

Say what?

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I have three crows. One's the pulse laser wubster meta. One's a fast-moving LRM boat. One's a 3xCERML+1xCAC/20. They're okay, but none of them are exciting. The Streak and SRM Crows aren't exciting. They just don't have any appeal to me. Maybe if I could do more with them, such as customize the engines and really own the entire Mech, then I'd be more interested in them. In the meantime, Clans feel very restricted, like you have to play them a certain way. Sadly, I think that's true.

There are other builds, not that it's complicated to build these things.

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Are you really going to go there? I thought the Tier stuff sounded fun when PGI initially announced it. Now I'm beginning to regret that they ever cooked up the idea.

Perhaps, but there's a lot more to non-meta and meta that you have yet to try or experience. That's more or less the problem.

Quote

I've used them. Again, say it with me now, "cookie-cutter." What if I don't want to run the SPL? What if I want to run the 12xCERML Nova? The Clans have been so heavily penalized in every regard that it's just not that fun to play them any more. Why bother when I can kick their butts with my IS Mechs?

Shooting at bad players in poor Clan/IS builds doesn't make you a good player.

It's one thing to not embrace the meta.. but to speak in terms that show your lack of understanding of it doesn't make your point in a balance conversation useful.

Edited by Deathlike, 29 September 2015 - 11:31 AM.

[Mcgral18]

Tuku, on 29 September 2015 - 11:19 AM, said:

I have a question about CERLL vs ISERLL

The clan burn time is longer but, If you let the CERLL burn for the same burn time as the ISERLL dose it still do 10 damage at that point?

Nearly identical.
9.167 damage VS 9
The it burns for another .25 seconds and deals just under 2 more damage.

Deathlike, on 29 September 2015 - 11:30 AM, said:

Shooting at bad players in poor Clan/IS builds doesn't make you a good player.

It's one thing to not embrace the meta.. but to speak in terms that show your lack of understanding of it doesn't make your point in a balance conversation useful.

I'd suggest giving up on him.

[Nightmare1]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 29 September 2015 - 11:22 AM, said:

There are very few that can match the top Clan mechs in the medium/heavy bracket AND still be as durable. Sure you can make a SHD, GRF, WVR, or KTO as fast as the Stormcrow, but none of them will have the durability and the firepower. The heavies are even worse since most IS heavies are stuck with sub-81kph speed engines limits. The ones that aren't are generally bad (DGN, non-5K QKDs).

You're forgetting the TDR and Grasshopper. Both move 80+ kph. In fact, I can build a Grasshopper with a Standard 340 that has a 40 point Alpha. That's nothing to sneeze at and I can tell you that it's performed very well in the field for me.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 29 September 2015 - 11:22 AM, said:

As for brawling, I think you underestimate the Timber as a brawler too much, the Timber is a better brawler than the TDR-5SS and while the Dire can't brawl, no one cares because it obliterates things at range.

With what, pulse lasers and SRMs? Clan ACs aren't much good for brawling like IS ACs are. My HBK-4G or CN9-YLW will devastate a Timber Wolf in a 1v1 for the simple reason that I can use terrain to block shots while simultaneously spreading the Timbers damage. In return, all I have to do is snap-shoot an AC/20 to deal significant damage. The TDRs are even better since they are tougher and have better armaments.

I've played this game quite a bit and have yet to meet the Clan Mech, aside from the Cheetah, that impressed me as a brawler. The Clans are all about range.

Now, if SRM hit reg works, then there is one Timber build that makes a good brawler. However, that's if hit reg works.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 29 September 2015 - 11:22 AM, said:

I'm starting to think we are playing very different games, because most teams that push against a Clan firing line, get decimated if there is any semblance of coordination.

Who pushes against a firing line? You feel them out and then circle around and flank, negating the firing line. It doesn't matter who your enemy is; if they're set up and waiting for you, and you walk down that firing line, then you're going to get chopped up.

Basic Tactics 101: Never attack an entrenched enemy head on.

This is also why timid teams tend to lose. They get set up to defend against one direction and are surprised when the smarter attackers strike from a different one.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 29 September 2015 - 11:22 AM, said:

FTFY, the exception being the Lurmback.

FTFY? I Googled that abbreviation; it's quite rude. Are you really that childish?

The Lurmback is an IS Mech. I wasn't talking about IS LRMs; I was talking about Clan LRMs. It's also worth noting that the Lurmback is ridiculously quirked.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 29 September 2015 - 11:22 AM, said:

So what are we considering "cookie-cutter", anything that is actually effective?

No, just the meta. It shows a lack of ability on the pilot's part as well as a lack of interest in really playing the game to its fullest. Simple cutting and pasting the meta into your build is sad. The real challenge is playing non-meta Mechs and annihilating the sad, sad meta pilots.

Case in point: My 3xCERML + 1xCAC/20 Stormcrow is what I would call a non-meta, non-cookie-cutter build. However, my 5xCMPL Stormcrow is exactly what I would call a meta or cookie-cutter build. It exists for when I need a competitive Mech. Otherwise, I never use it and use the "fun" Mechs instead.

[Ultimax]

Widowmaker1981, on 29 September 2015 - 06:59 AM, said:

Honestly.. based on math the burn time is all i got. I thought exactly the same as what you just typed, built the hellbringer and .. couldnt do anything with it. Feels incredibly weak. But my 3xLPL GHR-5P? WRECKS everything. And i dont think its the 5% range and 10% duration quirks doing it....

To be frank, I think some things are mental.

I personally don't believe 0.25s beam duration is making that large of an impact - I regularly have superior results using CLPLs & CERMLAS vs. the shorter duration CMPLs due to the simple fact of being able to put out damage earlier in the match at range.

It would be interesting if you did some personal challenge - maybe spend one week in the GRH-5P with 3x LPLs and then one week in the HBR with 4x CMPLs.

FupDup, on 29 September 2015 - 07:39 AM, said:

This is why I didn't want publicly displayed PSR...

If you think:

"Dem light mechs are invincible!"

"LRMs are the most OP weapon in the game"

"IS lazors are MASSIVELY OP vs. Clan Lazors!"

...well you might be a part of the underhive



Some statements require a Tier check.

Widowmaker1981, on 29 September 2015 - 08:11 AM, said:

In fairness that point about Clan lasers dealing the same/more dmg per duration as IS ones, so twisting early still gets you just as good dmg as IS.. the part no one ever mentions is that clan lasers have godawful dmg/heat to start with, and you get all the heat regardless, making them even less heat efficient.

The problem here is that there are a ton of variables.

"higher heat" is relative.

It depends on your total load out, because no real mech is running around with one laser.


4x CERMLAS is 24 heat, for 28 damage
6x MLAS is 24 heat, for 30 damage

That's an extremely minor damage/heat efficiency loss (say 6.5% reduction) - and in return you gain 50% more range AND 2 extra tons AND requires 2 less hardpoints AND 2 less crit slots.


That's enormous.


4x CERMLAS is 24 heat, for 28 damage
3x LLAS is 21 heat, for 27 damage

Bigger efficiency drop off for heat/dam - but the tonnage difference is outrageous.

Dump it back into ELEVEN more DHS and that heat efficiency drop off disappears.

[Gas Guzzler]

Nightmare1, on 29 September 2015 - 11:41 AM, said:

FTFY? I Googled that abbreviation; it's quite rude. Are you really that childish?

FTFY = Fixed that for you

It isn't very rude..

[Nightmare1]

Deathlike, on 29 September 2015 - 11:30 AM, said:

Shooting at bad players in poor Clan/IS builds doesn't make you a good player.

It's one thing to not embrace the meta.. but to speak in terms that show your lack of understanding of it doesn't make your point in a balance conversation useful.

I've been around this game a lot longer than you have and have done about everything there is to do in it. I'm also not talking about shooting at bad players in poor Mechs or builds. I've smoked some of the better ones out there.

I understand why the meta is meta: It's effective so everyone runs it. What I'm saying is that if you don't run the meta with a Clan Mech, the game is less forgiving to you than if you don't run the meta in an IS Mech.

Case in point, I ran my HBK-GI the other night with twin AC/5s instead of the Gauss, and with an XL 275, just for kicks. Surprisingly, it worked very, very well although it had ammo shortages. If I were to run a Nova without the CSPL meta build for it, then I would be a serious disadvantage. Sure, there's the 6xCERML build, but that's also kind of a meta for that chassis. The bottomline, is that if I want to put an AC on the Mech, I'm putting myself at a significant disadvantage on the field because the Clan ACs are useless unless boated or a large one is placed on a better Mech. The flexibility for the Nova just isn't there like it is for the HBK or the ENF.

The Stormcrow is pretty much all laser vomit or streaks for the meta; that's all you see. Since it has more available tonnage, you can do more with it than the Nova, but it feels a bit restricted too. The real, saving grace for it is the wonky hitboxes and its speed. Otherwise, it would die pretty quick, I think.

Basically, all that's to say that the Clans don't need more nerfing at all. Outside CW, the game feels pretty balanced. Because of the drastic differences between CW and the normal queues, it's not really possible to balance the game for one game mode without breaking it for the other. PGI has, rightfully, decided not to mess with weapon balance overall until it finished the upcoming rebalance. Considering that the rebalance hasn't been released yet, and that all we've seen is a highly experimental test version, this thread is really pointless.

[Johnny Z]

Nightmare1, on 29 September 2015 - 11:53 AM, said:

I've been around this game a lot longer than you have and have done about everything there is to do in it. I'm also not talking about shooting at bad players in poor Mechs or builds. I've smoked some of the better ones out there.

I understand why the meta is meta: It's effective so everyone runs it. What I'm saying is that if you don't run the meta with a Clan Mech, the game is less forgiving to you than if you don't run the meta in an IS Mech.

Case in point, I ran my HBK-GI the other night with twin AC/5s instead of the Gauss, and with an XL 275, just for kicks. Surprisingly, it worked very, very well although it had ammo shortages. If I were to run a Nova without the CSPL meta build for it, then I would be a serious disadvantage. Sure, there's the 6xCERML build, but that's also kind of a meta for that chassis. The bottomline, is that if I want to put an AC on the Mech, I'm putting myself at a significant disadvantage on the field because the Clan ACs are useless unless boated or a large one is placed on a better Mech. The flexibility for the Nova just isn't there like it is for the HBK or the ENF.

The Stormcrow is pretty much all laser vomit or streaks for the meta; that's all you see. Since it has more available tonnage, you can do more with it than the Nova, but it feels a bit restricted too. The real, saving grace for it is the wonky hitboxes and its speed. Otherwise, it would die pretty quick, I think.

Basically, all that's to say that the Clans don't need more nerfing at all. Outside CW, the game feels pretty balanced. Because of the drastic differences between CW and the normal queues, it's not really possible to balance the game for one game mode without breaking it for the other. PGI has, rightfully, decided not to mess with weapon balance overall until it finished the upcoming rebalance. Considering that the rebalance hasn't been released yet, and that all we've seen is a highly experimental test version, this thread is really pointless.

Kiss easy mode good bye.

[Nightmare1]

Gas Guzzler, on 29 September 2015 - 11:52 AM, said:

FTFY = Fixed that for you

It isn't very rude..

Hrm, I got something very different using a certain bomb word when I searched it. I must be using a different search engine.

http://www.urbandict...Y&defid=8359795

My apologies for the misconception. Given MWO's forumites and their attitudes though, can you hardly blame me?

Johnny Z, on 29 September 2015 - 11:57 AM, said:

Kiss easy mode good bye.

I've never played easy mode. Where's the fun in that?

[Deathlike]

Nightmare1, on 29 September 2015 - 11:53 AM, said:

I've been around this game a lot longer than you have and have done about everything there is to do in it. I'm also not talking about shooting at bad players in poor Mechs or builds. I've smoked some of the better ones out there.

It doesn't sound like it (I don't have proof either way that you are either). I can't claim to be a Founder either (Open Beta is what it is).

Nightmare1, on 29 September 2015 - 11:53 AM, said:

I understand why the meta is meta: It's effective so everyone runs it. What I'm saying is that if you don't run the meta with a Clan Mech, the game is less forgiving to you than if you don't run the meta in an IS Mech.

Case in point, I ran my HBK-GI the other night with twin AC/5s instead of the Gauss, and with an XL 275, just for kicks. Surprisingly, it worked very, very well although it had ammo shortages. If I were to run a Nova without the CSPL meta build for it, then I would be a serious disadvantage. Sure, there's the 6xCERML build, but that's also kind of a meta for that chassis. The bottomline, is that if I want to put an AC on the Mech, I'm putting myself at a significant disadvantage on the field because the Clan ACs are useless unless boated or a large one is placed on a better Mech. The flexibility for the Nova just isn't there like it is for the HBK or the ENF.

That sounds more like a weapon balance issue than anything else really.

Quote

The Stormcrow is pretty much all laser vomit or streaks for the meta; that's all you see. Since it has more available tonnage, you can do more with it than the Nova, but it feels a bit restricted too. The real, saving grace for it is the wonky hitboxes and its speed. Otherwise, it would die pretty quick, I think.

I don't believe there are wonky hitboxes on it (mostly bad hitreg), but there are actual reliable ways of getting rid of a Doomcrow. It's not that complicated.

Quote

Basically, all that's to say that the Clans don't need more nerfing at all. Outside CW, the game feels pretty balanced. Because of the drastic differences between CW and the normal queues, it's not really possible to balance the game for one game mode without breaking it for the other. PGI has, rightfully, decided not to mess with weapon balance overall until it finished the upcoming rebalance. Considering that the rebalance hasn't been released yet, and that all we've seen is a highly experimental test version, this thread is really pointless.

That assumes you trust PGI with balance. That's very debatable.

It doesn't take one obvious major hotfix (the CERLL 2.0 duration fiasco) to know there has been a history of problems with balance... and you don't need a loudmouth like myself to just repeat that.

[InspectorG]

Yeonne Greene, on 28 September 2015 - 10:20 PM, said:

Generally:

Cool-down >> Range >> Damage >> Duration

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Range can be a trade-off as well as duration+cooldown(dps)

The weapon balance will have to be done with map design in mind.(not sure if PGI does this)

Low arm mounts + more terrain on certain maps mitigate the range and if Clans have to expose more to deal damage. Broad open maps would favor Clans, tighter more cluttered maps would not.

The maps are getting re-worked anyhow and the trend seems to be bigger + more assets added. This would give IS mechs cover to advance.

Other balancing factors would be:

Higher Clan Alphas are usually dependant on OmniPods used so the boating pods can come with stiff structure nerfs. Glass cannon effect.

To avoid nerfing the Holy Trinity but bringing the Clan-B-team up to parity would be a mobility/agility nerf to (not just Clan) heavies an assaults.

'Firepower' mechs would have their torso twist range reduced to @45degrees, Turning rates dropped to un-basic or worse, Arms have less reach, loses some Hill Climb ability(JJ pods recieve structure nerf).
This creates very forward focused weapon platforms that would be vulnerable to flanking and would lose some value in brawling to to turning nerfs.

This way the B-Team Clanners and lower tonnage bracket IS mechs with limited hardpoints/tonnage can gain mobility/agility and be able to position their limited firepower better.

This way the Summoner may not have the 50-70 point alpha of a Timby, but can use movement to create advantages.
The Timby would hit very hard, have its linear speed and hitboxes, but loses out having to turn its firing arc chasing faster moving targets.

Bishops/Rooks vs Knights.

TL;DR

Weapon balance needs to be synergized with Map design and Mobility between classes/archetypes.

[Johnny Z]

Nightmare1, on 29 September 2015 - 11:58 AM, said:

Hrm, I got something very different using a certain bomb word when I searched it. I must be using a different search engine.

http://www.urbandict...8;defid=8359795

My apologies for the misconception. Given MWO's forumites and their attitudes though, can you hardly blame me?



I've never played easy mode. Where's the fun in that?

Omni mechs have been easy mode since the day they were added. Crutch jockies have been trolling to keep them easy mode till this very day. Simple.

Its cheap content. I hope this game and other Battletech games put it far behind and start adding some real content. It actually looks like that is happening with the new Battletech game which the developers themselves have said they wish to make a better game than they had in the past.

Also you never played easy mode comment and then say Omni mechs dont need to be balanced on the same page shows your quality.

I havnt said much about the lasers but the engines need balancing 100% for sure making any statement the game is currently balanced false. Same with the gauss.

Edited by Johnny Z, 29 September 2015 - 12:13 PM.

[Nightmare1]

Deathlike, on 29 September 2015 - 12:00 PM, said:

It doesn't sound like it (I don't have proof either way that you are either). I can't claim to be a Founder either (Open Beta is what it is).

Go check out my YouTube Channel or Twitch Stream and you'll see enough to settle your doubts.

Deathlike, on 29 September 2015 - 12:00 PM, said:

That sounds more like a weapon balance issue than anything else really.

Yeah, Clans are inferior to the IS because they have high heat, high damage, high spread weapons that are only effective at long range. Get close with the IS advantage in short range combat with fast cycling, low heat, pinpoint weapons and the Clans don't stand a chance.

That's why I'm saying that the Clans don't need another nerf; the only advantage they have over the IS is range. If they don't deal enough damage at range, they're sunk when the enemy gets close.

Deathlike, on 29 September 2015 - 12:00 PM, said:

I don't believe there are wonky hitboxes on it (mostly bad hitreg), but there are actual reliable ways of getting rid of a Doomcrow. It's not that complicated.

I just treat it like a Light and sweep the legs since the torsos are so broken. I have video of my shots passing through a Stormcrow's torsos without dealing damage, yet with the Mech flinching as if it was being hit. There have also been a lot of times I've shot at them up close, seen the shell hit and received the red damage indicator, and yet dealt very little to no damage. I don't have that problem with nearly any of the other Mechs in this game; it's pretty much just the Crow.

The legs work okay though. I've never had shots pass through them.

Deathlike, on 29 September 2015 - 12:00 PM, said:

That assumes you trust PGI with balance. That's very debatable.

In the end, it's a moot point since they're the ones doing the balancing and not you or me.

Deathlike, on 29 September 2015 - 12:00 PM, said:

It doesn't take one obvious major hotfix (the CERLL 2.0 duration fiasco) to know there has been a history of problems with balance... and you don't need a loudmouth like myself to just repeat that.

Yeah, the 2.0 was laughable.

I'm hardly a loudmouth. Just someone stating an opinion. I've also refrained from insulting you while you have done that to me. That's a bit like the pot trying to call the kettle black.

[Nightmare1]

Johnny Z, on 29 September 2015 - 12:04 PM, said:

Omni mechs have been easy mode since the day they were added. Crutch jockies have been trolling to keep them easy mode till this very day. Simple.

Johnny Z, on 29 September 2015 - 12:04 PM, said:

Its cheap content. I hope this game and other Battletech games put it far behind and starts adding some real content. It actually looks like that is happening with the new Battletech game which the developers themselves have said they wish to make a better game than they had in the past.

I could go for content. That's what this game is really lacking.

Johnny Z, on 29 September 2015 - 12:04 PM, said:

Also you never played easy mode comment and then say Omni mechs dont need to be balanced on the same page shows your quality.

I'm pretty much a dedicated IS player. I have the Wave I pack, but haven't bothered to even finish Basic'ing all the Mechs. They were a bit depressing. Now I pretty much just run IS. What I'm referring to is what I witness on the field from the IS side. I just don't view Clans as that powerful.

To be honest, a King Crab worries me more than a Daishi. Actually, now that I think about it, the only Mechs that really worry me are the Stormcrow and Arctic Cheetah because of their blend of speed, firepower, and resiliency. I feel confident fighting against any of the other Clan Mechs with my IS Mechs.

Johnny Z, on 29 September 2015 - 12:04 PM, said:

I havnt said much about the lasers but the engines need balancing 100% for sure making any statement the game is currently balanced false. Same with the gauss.

IS and Clan Gauss have identical damage and firing rates; to what are you referring?

As to engines, I think those feel good too.

You seem to forget that in the Lore, the Clans were supposed to have a few advantages over the IS. Everyone here seems to want to make the Clans into a hot, shut-down prone version of the IS. I just don't understand that mentality. Where's the desire for variety? Where's the desire to maintain the integrity of the Clans as they were meant to be?

I'd like to fight a real Clan Mech and not a half-locked Mech that's been nerfed to the point where all it's got going for it is laser vomit. That would be a real test of skill.

[Johnny Z]

Nightmare1, on 29 September 2015 - 12:18 PM, said:

I could go for content. That's what this game is really lacking.




I'm pretty much a dedicated IS player. I have the Wave I pack, but haven't bothered to even finish Basic'ing all the Mechs. They were a bit depressing. Now I pretty much just run IS. What I'm referring to is what I witness on the field from the IS side. I just don't view Clans as that powerful.

To be honest, a King Crab worries me more than a Daishi. Actually, now that I think about it, the only Mechs that really worry me are the Stormcrow and Arctic Cheetah because of their blend of speed, firepower, and resiliency. I feel confident fighting against any of the other Clan Mechs with my IS Mechs.




IS and Clan Gauss have identical damage and firing rates; to what are you referring?

As to engines, I think those feel good too.

You seem to forget that in the Lore, the Clans were supposed to have a few advantages over the IS. Everyone here seems to want to make the Clans into a hot, shut-down prone version of the IS. I just don't understand that mentality. Where's the desire for variety? Where's the desire to maintain the integrity of the Clans as they were meant to be?

I'd like to fight a real Clan Mech and not a half-locked Mech that's been nerfed to the point where all it's got going for it is laser vomit. That would be a real test of skill.

Thanks I think this sums up your entire arguement fairly well.

[Deathlike]

Nightmare1, on 29 September 2015 - 12:10 PM, said:

Go check out my YouTube Channel or Twitch Stream and you'll see enough to settle your doubts.

Meh?

Quote

Yeah, Clans are inferior to the IS because they have high heat, high damage, high spread weapons that are only effective at long range. Get close with the IS advantage in short range combat with fast cycling, low heat, pinpoint weapons and the Clans don't stand a chance.

That's why I'm saying that the Clans don't need another nerf; the only advantage they have over the IS is range. If they don't deal enough damage at range, they're sunk when the enemy gets close.

If you haven't learned to brawl with the Clans, I don't know what to tell you.

Quote

I just treat it like a Light and sweep the legs since the torsos are so broken. I have video of my shots passing through a Stormcrow's torsos without dealing damage, yet with the Mech flinching as if it was being hit. There have also been a lot of times I've shot at them up close, seen the shell hit and received the red damage indicator, and yet dealt very little to no damage. I don't have that problem with nearly any of the other Mechs in this game; it's pretty much just the Crow.

The legs work okay though. I've never had shots pass through them.

It's called hitreg. It's magical. That has less to do with the Stormcrow, as this happens with ALL mechs, not just the Stormcrow.

Quote

In the end, it's a moot point since they're the ones doing the balancing and not you or me.

Yes, but if you simply just accept what they tell you, w/o actually analyzing what they are doing and WHY they are doing... well.. I guess we know where to find Flamers and MG usage at greater rates.

Quote

I'm hardly a loudmouth. Just someone stating an opinion. I've also refrained from insulting you while you have done that to me. That's a bit like the pot trying to call the kettle black.

Personally, I'm criticizing your position. If you think that's a personal attack, I guess that's your opinion.

I care enough about balance to discuss these matters pretty often, as very little positive changes at any pace.

It's one thing to have an opinion... it's another to sound uninformed. You don't tell someone in a specialized position (whether it be lawyer or doctor) that you know better than they do when it comes to their job. However, when it comes to balance... people that can tangibly explain what's wrong, give examples, and demonstrate repeatedly with knowledge and some wisdom, it becomes blatantly obvious when there's a problem. When the comp community doesn't agree with PGI's direction on balance... there is a problem. It doesn't mean they aren't infallible, but at least trying to bring something to the table.. not just anecdotal evidence to the contrary.

If you accept PGI's "current balance proposition", that's fine. However, if you cannot demonstrate how a certain thing does or doesn't matter when it comes to overall play... especially at higher levels... then how is the commentary meaningful? Are LRMs suddenly "acceptable at all levels of play"? Do Flamers have to stay useless indefinitely? Are quirks and hitboxes tested thoroughly?

These things encompass the kinds of discussions that go around here... whether you like it or not. All we're here for is to make sure it doesn't get worse... at least as much as we can possibly control (in the sense that we ultimately have none, and we'll try anyways).

Edited by Deathlike, 29 September 2015 - 12:33 PM.

[Nightmare1]

Deathlike, on 29 September 2015 - 12:32 PM, said:

If you haven't learned to brawl with the Clans, I don't know what to tell you.

It's not that I don't know how to brawl with them. It's just that the IS has an advantage at brawling. To deny that is like denying that the sky is blue. IS Mechs have better pinpoint that the Clans and faster cycling weapons. That alone means that the Clans are at a disadvantage in a brawl against them. What's not to understand about that?

Deathlike, on 29 September 2015 - 12:32 PM, said:

It's called hitreg. It's magical. That has less to do with the Stormcrow, as this happens with ALL mechs, not just the Stormcrow.

I understand hit-reg. What I don't understand is why I have more hit-reg problems with the Crow than any other Mech. I don't think I've ever had shells completely pass through anything other than the Crow.

Deathlike, on 29 September 2015 - 12:32 PM, said:

Yes, but if you simply just accept what they tell you, w/o actually analyzing what they are doing and WHY they are doing... well.. I guess we know where to find Flamers and MG usage at greater rates.

That's what the feedback threads are for. Threads like this are rather pointless.

Sure, Flamers and MGs, while not particularly useful, are fun nonetheless. If all you care about is winning, then go play the cookie-cutter meta. Otherwise, stop playing it for a bit and go build some fun Mechs and don't worry about whether you win or lose.

Deathlike, on 29 September 2015 - 12:32 PM, said:

Personally, I'm criticizing your position. If you think that's a personal attack, I guess that's your opinion.

Criticizing a position by wrapping it in a personal attack remains a personal attack, no matter how much lipstick you slap on that pig.

Deathlike, on 29 September 2015 - 12:32 PM, said:

I care enough about balance to discuss these matters pretty often, as very little positive changes at any pace.

I also care about balance, but I've learned over time that these...discussions...rarely achieve any sort of meaningful dialogue. This thread is an excellent example. I disagreed with the OP and presented my case as to why I disagreed. The epeen nonsense instantly started along with significant personal attacks. There's no interest in discussion; only in insult and shouting down of those who disagree.

Shoot, I bet nobody even bothered to read my posts to see why I disagreed. They probably just read, "I disagree," and skipped to the "Quote" button from there.

Deathlike, on 29 September 2015 - 12:32 PM, said:

It's one thing to have an opinion... it's another to sound uninformed. You don't tell someone in a specialized position (whether it be lawyer or doctor) that you know better than they do when it comes to their job. However, when it comes to balance... people that can tangibly explain what's wrong, give examples, and demonstrate repeatedly with knowledge and some wisdom, it becomes blatantly obvious when there's a problem. When the comp community doesn't agree with PGI's direction on balance... there is a problem. It doesn't mean they aren't infallible, but at least trying to bring something to the table.. not just anecdotal evidence to the contrary.

So, you're saying the the comp players are more informed than the game developers themselves? That's kind of arrogant. In PGI's case, I'm a bit inclined to agree though.

That being said, I'm not as worried about what comp players want. I think that's a minority of the MWO community. What's better is listening to the community at large that just wants to play for fun, instead of trying to tailor the game to a few meta bean-counters that only run optimized builds.

Deathlike, on 29 September 2015 - 12:32 PM, said:

If you accept PGI's "current balance proposition", that's fine. However, if you cannot demonstrate how a certain thing does or doesn't matter when it comes to overall play... especially at higher levels... then how is the commentary meaningful? Are LRMs suddenly "acceptable at all levels of play"? Do Flamers have to stay useless indefinitely? Are quirks and hitboxes tested thoroughly?

The last rebalance PTS was a very rough pass; it's far from being complete. As such, I don't think that anyone's accepting it.

As for Flamers and LRMs, I'm confident those will be addressed after the rebalance has been in place long enough to receive rigorous testing by the community. Shoot, ECM has a big nerf in the pipeline that should help LRM'ers quite a bit. Just be patient.

Deathlike, on 29 September 2015 - 12:32 PM, said:

These things encompass the kinds of discussions that go around here... whether you like it or not. All we're here for is to make sure it doesn't get worse... at least as much as we can possibly control (in the sense that we ultimately have none, and we'll try anyways).

And I would count further nerfs to the Clans as making things worse. That's why I'm here.

Personally, rather than seeing things nerfed, I would rather see new content introduced to both increase the gameplay diversity and to help balance things. There's an awful lot of stuff in the BT lore to draw upon that has been largely ignored up until now.

[Mcgral18]

Does he not know the Glory is cSmalls?

The cSmall Pulse being the absolute best brawling weapon?



It really is useless to try and have a discussion with him. He's clueless.

[Deathlike]

Nightmare1, on 29 September 2015 - 12:51 PM, said:

It's not that I don't know how to brawl with them. It's just that the IS has an advantage at brawling. To deny that is like denying that the sky is blue. IS Mechs have better pinpoint that the Clans and faster cycling weapons. That alone means that the Clans are at a disadvantage in a brawl against them. What's not to understand about that?

Sure, the IS has a general advantage of brawling, but it's still very much doable with Clan mechs. If anything, it's being underrated by far.

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I understand hit-reg. What I don't understand is why I have more hit-reg problems with the Crow than any other Mech. I don't think I've ever had shells completely pass through anything other than the Crow.

TBH, I get messed up while in a Stormcrow plenty of times. I don't think it's the crow, but rather where people are aiming at more often than not.

People forget that hitreg actually happens on something as far as a Direwolf or Awesome, but it doesn't register with them unlike something as powerful as a Stormcrow.

It happens, but that assumes PGI hasn't messed up the hitboxes in movement.

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That's what the feedback threads are for. Threads like this are rather pointless.

Historically to date... they don't really read them... or well enough. UI 2.0 threads back when it was all the rage had great ideas and fixes, but became a cesspool of ideas that never got dealt wtih... among other related things.

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Sure, Flamers and MGs, while not particularly useful, are fun nonetheless. If all you care about is winning, then go play the cookie-cutter meta. Otherwise, stop playing it for a bit and go build some fun Mechs and don't worry about whether you win or lose.

I play to win, and even win with crappier mechs+builds. I don't pretend to claim otherwise. It still doesn't mean I should focus on the meta unless it's required of me.

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Criticizing a position by wrapping it in a personal attack remains a personal attack, no matter how much lipstick you slap on that pig.

Well, tell me where I attacked you then, if that's such a sticking point?

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I also care about balance, but I've learned over time that these...discussions...rarely achieve any sort of meaningful dialogue. This thread is an excellent example. I disagreed with the OP and presented my case as to why I disagreed. The epeen nonsense instantly started along with significant personal attacks. There's no interest in discussion; only in insult and shouting down of those who disagree.

There is always meaningful dialog... when ideas are presented instead of "lol no". The problem is the volume of "lol no" when people cannot defend their position other that "I can make it work" and such stuff doesn't really cut it. It's a common theme anyways, so I doubt that'll be fixable anytime soon other than discrediting them with actual logical arguments. But hey, it never gets that far...

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Shoot, I bet nobody even bothered to read my posts to see why I disagreed. They probably just read, "I disagree," and skipped to the "Quote" button from there.

Well, a lot of prefiltering goes on (TL;DR is not just a random event).

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So, you're saying the the comp players are more informed than the game developers themselves? That's kind of arrogant. In PGI's case, I'm a bit inclined to agree though.

That being said, I'm not as worried about what comp players want. I think that's a minority of the MWO community. What's better is listening to the community at large that just wants to play for fun, instead of trying to tailor the game to a few meta bean-counters that only run optimized builds.

I'm not saying the comp players are right.. I've seen really crazy ideas that don't make sense... but it's not for a lack of trying. I once had to argue about why the Victor nerfs were bad, despite that being the top meta before the Clans arrived and changed too much of the dynamics that existed.

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The last rebalance PTS was a very rough pass; it's far from being complete. As such, I don't think that anyone's accepting it.

"Rough pass" is an understatement. It's not hard to actually prove it was even a legit attempt (assuming you even go along with that notion). It's one thing to claim one thing (ready for some future patch) and actually not be on the same page (how does the Enforcer getting a terrible torso twist rate get passed any sort of QA?)

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As for Flamers and LRMs, I'm confident those will be addressed after the rebalance has been in place long enough to receive rigorous testing by the community. Shoot, ECM has a big nerf in the pipeline that should help LRM'ers quite a bit. Just be patient.

I don't believe that for a moment. ECM's "nerf" has been bandied about for what... 2-3 months now AND still nothing has changed? Like, if you're to mention something "important"... why should the timetable for implementation be "indefinite/unknown"? I still know nothing of what CW Phase 3 entails (and it's surely not being deployed in October based on the info provided), which makes me border on concerned (can't discuss things that doesn't even exist).

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And I would count further nerfs to the Clans as making things worse. That's why I'm here.

So you're just accepting that Clan balance is fine... when even the comp players primarily use Clan mechs when push comes to shove? That doesn't quite sound like balance to me.

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Personally, rather than seeing things nerfed, I would rather see new content introduced to both increase the gameplay diversity and to help balance things. There's an awful lot of stuff in the BT lore to draw upon that has been largely ignored up until now.

Fix what you have first before you add in other elements. Otherwise, it becomes far more complicated. That's how design works... and while balance doesn't necessarily follow design, but it's very much true when it comes to programming (or architecture, or whatever thing you're trying to build a foundation upon).

[Lugh]

Mcgral18, on 29 September 2015 - 12:53 PM, said:

Does he not know the Glory is cSmalls?

The cSmall Pulse being the absolute best brawling weapon?



It really is useless to try and have a discussion with him. He's clueless.

You keep moving the target when the evidence is prevented to prove you wrong. Yes Csmalls are better than IS smalls and Csmalls, however IS ML are = to them and have longer range, similiar heat and the same damage. OMG! The horror, I've found a way to beat csmall vomit with IS ML vomit. The Horror. The Horror.

Edited by Lugh, 29 September 2015 - 01:21 PM.