444 replies to this topic

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Nightmare1, on 29 September 2015 - 07:58 PM, said:

While the Hopper is not a competitive Mech, you are making the critical error of disregarding pilot ability and the poor assumption

Ima stop you right there, pilot ability should not come into play here because the best hopper pilot is not going to be able to compete against the best pilot of a better pilot. Let's not move the goal post here.

Nightmare1, on 29 September 2015 - 07:58 PM, said:

I do both, actually, depending on my enemy. Regardless, it's smarter to poke once or twice to get a feel for what's there. If it's a lone Mech, then you can jump it and brawl it up.

If there is a lone mech in a brawl, someone is doing it wrong. I understand in PUG brawls, this does happen, but in PUGs, a lot of things happen. The problem is that the moment you introduce even a little bit of coordination these sort of things do not happen.

Nightmare1, on 29 September 2015 - 07:58 PM, said:

The CN9-YLW and HBK-4G are great brawlers when piloted in PUGs.

FTFY. They are not great brawlers, they are great short range poke mechs. Any Splatcrow or small laser/pulse Nova should be able to kill both in a scrum/infight, but scrums are rare in PUG matches unfortunately (or at least when I play).

Nightmare1, on 29 September 2015 - 07:58 PM, said:

I beg to differ. Most maps let you get pretty close, actually. Forest Colony and River City both have areas with good cover allowing you to work in on your enemies, poking as you close for a brawl. Caustic is pretty much a close range, high speed brawling race where the devil takes the hindmost.

Again, you use PUGs as the sole determination for this. In PUG matches, you can get away with a lot, including being a harasser. This all changes with actual coordination or actual planning. Caustic, Forest, and River City all have plenty of areas for a long range team to hold without any appreciable approach for a brawl team. Frozen and Bog are probably the only maps in rotation that really allow for brawls in coordinated maps at decent tonnages.

Nightmare1, on 29 September 2015 - 07:58 PM, said:

I don't recall ever comparing Clan LRMs to other weapons and saying that the CLRMs had any kind of advantages.

You were holding it up as an example of IS superiority, but if that weapon system as a whole is irrelevant outside of one mech, does that "superiority" really matter in the scheme of things? My answer is no, so let's not pretend like suddenly it means Clan mechs are hamstrung.

Nightmare1, on 29 September 2015 - 07:58 PM, said:

It's not that they aren't playing the game right, it's just that they're losing sight of the fact that not everyone is a meta tryhard with an epeen to polish. Most folks just want to have fun.

This is a double-edge sword, you know that right? I swear people bring this up like it is some excuse for things to stay the same. First, let me put this in simple terms, if most people just want to have "fun", then why even care about balance? If you care about balance, then on some level you are a little bit of a meta tryhard whether you want to admit it or not, because guess what they worry about? Efficiency, what allows them to kill the enemy the best.
Second, I don't know about you, but when most people play a game, they don't try to find the worst weapon first, they try to find the best stuff to kill things. I'd be willing to bet, most people tend to want to win and will try to find a way to do it rather than continuously hamstring themselves. You only hamstring yourself if the current players aren't presenting enough of a challenge.

Nightmare1, on 29 September 2015 - 07:58 PM, said:

Frankly, I don't think the Clans need more nerfing. As a dedicated IS pilot, I don't really have any problems fighting them.

Most comp or comp-like players would disagree with you thus why you see threads like this.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 30 September 2015 - 10:06 AM.

[Gyrok]

Mcgral18, on 28 September 2015 - 07:14 AM, said:

Clan Laser, as we know, are quite good. No quirks needed.
ERML and cLPL generally regarded as the best, but the cSPL a and even the ERSL are quite good, but with the downside of being short range (just not IS short range).

They first two are good because they offer high damage and also long range, with burn times that are almost identical.
They also retain the 2x max range all Lasers get. This makes incredibly dangerous at any range, due to hitscan damage application.

Suggestion vary, from damage to heat to range adjustments...or 2s burns for all Clam Lazors, because Clams OP.

Some suggestions are far better than others.

I'll describe my ideas, and hope you provide your own, or critique my suggestion.

I favour touching all the attributes.
For the cLPL, I would touch the damage down. Start at the source 10, down 3 points. Still powerful, but 30% less. I would also cut the range down. While TT does have a 600m range, it obsoletes the cERLL in the current 1300+m max range. I suggest a modest 500 m, a small nerf, still reaching over 1k, but closer to the 365m of the isLPL.
Heat, I would start at the current 10, perhaps a little high, but you can iterate from there (PGI Plz).
As a significant buff, make it have a proper Pulse Laser burn duration. Start at 0.8s, shorter than the current cMPL.

That cuts down slightly on the alphas that are thrown out, tiny range nerf, same sustainability and a fair duration buff. Not sure if it's too much in either direction, but I feel it's a nice place to start.

For the ERML, for 1 ton it's quite excellent. I'd suggest less heat, less damage, less range and shorter duration.
Heat back down to 5, and isML down to 3 at the same time. Mainly to offset the following nerfs.
Damage, down to 6, still plenty powerful, more than the isML.
Range...well, two ways to go about it. Keep a longer effective range, but gank the extended (less than 2x) or keep the typical 2x with shorter optimal. Both are simple Weapons.xml edits, both linear damage loss.
It's probably safer to go the typical route, so I suggest a 360m optimal range (same as the isERML in TT). Still a 720m max, which is potent, but noticeably worse. Modules will affect that to 810 max with a TC1.
Burn time cut down to 1s, the old isML time.
The cERML still comes out ahead on Dam/tick, but marginally less than current. 0.556 VS 0.6 (vs 0.61).
Less alpha at less range, it is still a noticeable nerf with an isML buff thrown in for good measure.

For short range lasers...honestly, I'd rather buff the IS stuff. We need effective short range weapons, and SRMs are rubbish.
Either give the IS smalls greater range, or greater damage. One of those along with duration buffs, or even significant cooldown buffs. Make them excellent short range DPS alternatives, with 2 of them noticeably better than a single ML, as they are on the Clan side.


For the cMPL I would drop the heat all the way down to 4.5, damage to 7, and range to 280m. With current duration, it has 0.82 dam/tick VS the 1 of the isMLP, but with greater range. Maybe too much, but I repeat, iterative changes from these values.

No idea about the cERLL as I never use it. Less duration, more heat? Perhaps a touch down to 10 dam, but something useful at long range, but too hot at short? That sounds nice to me.

So...criticism?
I feel these are generally fair, but haven't thought most of them fully through. Just brainstorming.

Why not bring in ER lasers for IS????

[Johnny Z]

Gyrok, on 30 September 2015 - 10:05 AM, said:

Why not bring in ER lasers for IS????

I am not a game designer and not saying that is a bad idea. But I was in construction for decades from my early teenage years like my father and grandfather before. Anyway, the point is in construction you dont have stuff lying around with no use like adding ER mediums would do to the current medium.

Even art deco is style with function and isnt anything useless.

To me it seems to make more sense to add things like the blazer and other equipment that are not already in the game.

Again maybe there is some reason i dont see as a player to add er mediums.

They are building a game here. So having everything organized until balance is achieved before adding new equipment makes sense also.

First lesson for apprentices, pick everything up off the ground so that you dont have to go around garbage or tools or what ever 275 times a day.

Edited by Johnny Z, 30 September 2015 - 10:24 AM.

[Deathlike]

Gyrok, on 30 September 2015 - 10:05 AM, said:

Why not bring in ER lasers for IS????

Because PGI.

They would still be inferior to the Clan versions.

[Mcgral18]

Gyrok, on 30 September 2015 - 10:05 AM, said:

Why not bring in ER lasers for IS????

Because that doesn't fix the core issue.


Also, Legacy Tech. I don't want more SHSs or Command Consoles. Better to balance what we have (with a mixture of buffs and nerfs) than to bring even more things to try to balance.

[Mister Blastman]

Gyrok, on 30 September 2015 - 10:05 AM, said:

Why not bring in ER lasers for IS????

They don't fix the SRM and LRM disparity--nor balance the slow and hot PPCs.

[Golden Vulf]

In the Tabletop, a clan mech could get by with relatively little pod space, so they could have large engines, locked componenets like standard structure, and make poor use out of engine heat sink space.

In Mechwarrior online, Clan Lasers generate more heat than they should, and the heatsinks dissipate less heat than they should.

A build in the tabletop that would be heat neutral, is now severly heat inefficient in MWO. So clan mechs that have standard structure and locked jump jets have much less tonnage that they can use for the extra heat sinks they need to make use of their energy hard points.

This becomes further compounded by mechs that were never meant to be heat efficient, like the Nova Prime. In tabletop it could generate 60 heat (61/62/63-65 if walking/running/jumping), and only dissipate 36 per turn.

In MWO, a Nova generates 72 heat (not counting movement or ghost heat) and can dissipate 31.2. The Nova can't upgrade to endosteel or adjust its engine, so the best way to make it viable is dropping a good portion of the armament to add more heatsinks.

Some people complain about how great the ER medium laser is for only weighing 1 ton. I Say it NEEDS to only weigh 1 ton. The higher damage clan lasers do is mostly lost from the long durations needed to hold it on one spot on a target. Try zapping a light mech at close range with ER Large Lasers.

For each medium laser, only about 20% of the damage hits a fast moving target, that's why clanners like to fire 6 at once!

My statistics are 60% made up, so they should be right about 88% of the time.

Edited by Golden Vulf, 30 September 2015 - 11:19 AM.

[Golden Vulf]

Deathlike, on 30 September 2015 - 10:30 AM, said:

Because PGI.

They would still be inferior to the Clan versions.

Except for those few variants that may receive decreased heat and beam duration, giving them the gattling lasers of death!

[Homeskilit]

Should not the difference in flavors from IS to Clan be in the Battlemechs though, not in weapons? Keeping in mind this is a 21st century computer game not a 20th century book or table top with dice.

[Mcgral18]

Homeskilit, on 30 September 2015 - 11:55 AM, said:

Should not the difference in flavors from IS to Clan be in the Battlemechs though, not in weapons? Keeping in mind this is a 21st century computer game not a 20th century book or table top with dice.

Do you mean Omnimech VS Battlemech? If so, already being broken.

The IIC Battlemechs use Clam tech, and come out later this year. Swap Engines, add Endo, use Clam tech.

[Weeny Machine]

Lasers have too many cons and virtual no drawbacks

* Hitscan --> no velocity
* (partially) Frontloaded damage
* little weight
* no ammo dependency
* good range
* huge alphas possible


Of course this is the weapon of choice.


As for brawling:
Brawling is basically dead in MWO for several reasons. You need to be close to do signifcant damage. And even then you do not really outclass laser boats significantly if you take the risk-reward relation into account.
Most likely you will get soften up by laser weapons anyway trying to get close enough for a brawl negating the small advantage you have.

And here we have the problem:
On long range lasers blow all other weapons out of the water because of the hitscan. In med and short range they are not really weaker than other weapon systems. That's why the risk-reward factor is screwed.

Also: on long range you need to be very lucky to hit a fast moving target with a PPC. Not so with a laser

[Homeskilit]

Mcgral18, on 30 September 2015 - 12:05 PM, said:

Do you mean Omnimech VS Battlemech? If so, already being broken.

The IIC Battlemechs use Clam tech, and come out later this year. Swap Engines, add Endo, use Clam tech.

Even more so then that because both sides will have both mechs (IS will get Omnis eventually). I feel like Battlemechs should be the stars of the game and you should choose your mechs based of some different characteristics such as roles (brawler, direct and indirect fire support, scout, anti scout) and design aesthetics (Yes I think you should ride a mech you like the look of just as you might drive a car you like the look of).

[Golden Vulf]

Bush Hopper, on 30 September 2015 - 12:14 PM, said:

Lasers have too many cons and virtual no drawbacks

* Hitscan --> no velocity
* (partially) Frontloaded damage
* little weight
* no ammo dependency
* good range
* huge alphas possible


Of course this is the weapon of choice.


As for brawling:
Brawling is basically dead in MWO for several reasons. You need to be close to do signifcant damage. And even then you do not really outclass laser boats significantly if you take the risk-reward relation into account.
Most likely you will get soften up by laser weapons anyway trying to get close enough for a brawl negating the small advantage you have.

And here we have the problem:
On long range lasers blow all other weapons out of the water because of the hitscan. In med and short range they are not really weaker than other weapon systems. That's why the risk-reward factor is screwed.

Also: on long range you need to be very lucky to hit a fast moving target with a PPC. Not so with a laser

I think you mean pros.

And ER Lasers do not beat Gauss or IS ACs or ER PPCs in the damage department at long range. At medium ranges the Clan Large Pulse and the IS Large/Large Pulse might edge out Gauss and ACs because you can bring more Lasers to bare at medium ranges. It is easier to take out a light with Gauss and PPCs at long range because of hit detection and the fact that at long range they won't realize you are aiming at them. Though if you don't know how to lead a target, and don't do anything to enhance your shot velocity, yeah, you'll have problems.

Sweeping across a wide area with your lasers, sure you'll have a very high chance to hit a light with your ER Large lasers for 3% damage to one of their arms.

Edited by Golden Vulf, 30 September 2015 - 01:29 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Homeskilit, on 30 September 2015 - 12:29 PM, said:

Even more so then that because both sides will have both mechs (IS will get Omnis eventually). I feel like Battlemechs should be the stars of the game and you should choose your mechs based of some different characteristics such as roles (brawler, direct and indirect fire support, scout, anti scout) and design aesthetics (Yes I think you should ride a mech you like the look of just as you might drive a car you like the look of).

Except IS omnis are almost all bad, some even have SHS stock. This would mean they are stuck with SHS because of the Omnimech construction rules that are carried over because reasons.

[Homeskilit]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 30 September 2015 - 02:16 PM, said:

Except IS omnis are almost all bad, some even have SHS stock. This would mean they are stuck with SHS because of the Omnimech construction rules that are carried over because reasons.

Easily changed with a simple line or two of coding.

Edit* It might not actually be that easy to activate the ability to use DHS on a mech in the mechlab, was just trying to say that it is easily changeable.

Edited by Homeskilit, 30 September 2015 - 02:46 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Homeskilit, on 30 September 2015 - 02:45 PM, said:

Easily changed with a simple line or two of coding.

Edit* It might not actually be that easy to activate the ability to use DHS on a mech in the mechlab, was just trying to say that it is easily changeable.

A lot of things are easily changeable, doesn't mean it is going to happen.

[Homeskilit]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 30 September 2015 - 02:47 PM, said:

A lot of things are easily changeable, doesn't mean it is going to happen.

They can if we keep fighting for it to happen.

[FupDup]

Homeskilit, on 30 September 2015 - 02:53 PM, said:

They can if we keep fighting for it to happen.

Flamers said:

You gotta be kidding me man!

[Homeskilit]

FupDup, on 30 September 2015 - 02:55 PM, said:

I know I have a much more positive out look then a lot of people because I have only recently arrived to this forum but the only alternative I see is unmentionable.

[FupDup]

Homeskilit, on 30 September 2015 - 02:59 PM, said:

I know I have a much more positive out look then a lot of people because I have only recently arrived to this forum but the only alternative I see is unmentionable.

It's okay, you'll be one of us Soon™ enough. Most of the Forumwarriors have become Bittervets to varying extents, it's only a matter of time...