444 replies to this topic

[Homeskilit]

There have been many good ideas discussed in this thread though, hopefully someone from PGI has or will read through this.

[Duke Nedo]

Homeskilit, on 29 September 2015 - 11:45 PM, said:

There have been many good ideas discussed in this thread though, hopefully someone from PGI has or will read through this.

Many good, and many bad, and above all lots of bad manners.

I am sure PGI staff read this, but how are they to separate the reflected opinions from the uninformed, when they hardly know the ins and outs of the balance of their own game?

The truly perceptive, reflected and unbiased comments in this thread like in any other balance thread, are in minority. There is little consensus... not even sure everyone will agree that flamers are bad.

[Sjorpha]

Deathlike, on 29 September 2015 - 06:52 PM, said:

By transitive logic, wouldn't that mean 14E on a Nova makes it OP? (Direwolf can do 15E if it really wanted to...)

Actually if you removed the ghost heat, 12 cSPL/cSL Nova probably would be OP. The Dire is such a heavy and slow platform that it can't take advantage of boating SPLs very well, there are some fun DWF SPL gimmick builds though.

But IS SPL/SL are such weak weapons that I don't think any number of energy hardpoints could ever make them OP, and 9 is the roof for IS mechs anyways which isn't nearly enough to compete with cSPL/cSL.

The small family is a case where the clan versions really blow the IS versions out of the water by such a margin that no sane person can argue their way out of it. You need to be either blind or dishonest to even try, contrary to the medium or large pulses etc where the balance is actually pretty close.

[Homeskilit]

Duke Nedo, on 30 September 2015 - 12:07 AM, said:

Many good, and many bad, and above all lots of bad manners.

I am sure PGI staff read this, but how are they to separate the reflected opinions from the uninformed, when they hardly know the ins and outs of the balance of their own game?

The truly perceptive, reflected and unbiased comments in this thread like in any other balance thread, are in minority. There is little consensus... not even sure everyone will agree that flamers are bad.

I guess I am a glass half full kind of person. I secretly hope PGI has a plan and is taking all this in and is processing it in regards to that plan. I just wish they were more vocal and communicative with the player base about it. I think you hit on part of the problem with the bad manners, we cannot have a nice discussion because people flame.

[Golden Vulf]

Sjorpha, on 30 September 2015 - 12:32 AM, said:

Actually if you removed the ghost heat, 12 cSPL/cSL Nova probably would be OP. The Dire is such a heavy and slow platform that it can't take advantage of boating SPLs very well, there are some fun DWF SPL gimmick builds though.

But IS SPL/SL are such weak weapons that I don't think any number of energy hardpoints could ever make them OP, and 9 is the roof for IS mechs anyways which isn't nearly enough to compete with cSPL/cSL.

The small family is a case where the clan versions really blow the IS versions out of the water by such a margin that no sane person can argue their way out of it. You need to be either blind or dishonest to even try, contrary to the medium or large pulses etc where the balance is actually pretty close.

I see lots of inner sphere lights running around boating the hell out of small lasers. I wish my Summoner could do as much damage per round as an IS light.

All I want for the Summoner is hard point inflation on empty omnipods. What is the point of an omnipod if you can't put a weapon on it? Just 1 energy hard point on the right torso, that is all I ask for!

Edited by Golden Vulf, 30 September 2015 - 02:03 AM.

[Johnny Z]

Golden Vulf, on 30 September 2015 - 01:56 AM, said:

I see lots of inner sphere lights running around boating the hell out of small lasers. I wish my Summoner could do as much damage per round as an IS light.

Some of the IS lights are actually to much also, its just that they have been mitigated by the loss of a single side torso and the use of inner sphere weapons. But yes there is a problem there as well to a much lesser degree and needs to be addressed at some point.

[Tarogato]

Hmmm, I missed this thread somehow until now.

https://docs.google....dit?usp=sharing

The "comparison" section outlines the differences between MWO stats and TT stats. We see things like

Changes that buffed the Clans:

- PGI buffed the cERLL by 1 damage and 2 heat.
- PGI buffed the cSPL by 3 damage.
- PGI buffed the cLPL by 3 damage.
- PGI nerfed the IS ML by 1 heat.
- PGI nerfed the IS SL by 1 heat. (okay, it's only the small laser, I get it, but still... )

Changes that nerfed the Clans:

- PGI buffed the IS LL by 1 damage and 1 heat.
- PGI buffed the IS ERLL by 1 damage and 4 heat.
- PGI buffed the IS SPL by 1 damage.
- PGI buffed the IS LPL by 2 damage and 3 heat.

Weird changes that don't make any sense:

- PGI buffed the the cMPL by 1 damage, but nerfed it by 2 heat. End result is that it's hotter than TT, and very few people actually use it.

---

If I had MWO balance at my finger tips, I would partially undo many of the above changes, bringing clan lasers closer to TT, making clans less OP.

cSPL becomes 5 damage.
cMPL becomes 7 damage, 5 heat.
cLPL becomes 11 damage.
IS ML becomes 3 heat.
IS SL becomes 1 heat.
All clan laser durations increased by 0.10 seconds. (or 0.05s at minimum to start with)
cGauss charge time increased by some amount. (okay, it's not a laser, but it's part of the problem - Gauss-vomit meta. Clan and IS gauss have the exact same stats, except clan weighs less and uses fewer slots for absolutely no drawbacks. I would propose that IS Gauss charge time be reduced to 0.70 seconds and cGauss charge time increased to 0.80 seconds.)

Edited by Tarogato, 30 September 2015 - 02:25 AM.

[Livewyr]

The problem with these lines of thinking is that they only take one aspect into account when trying to balance. If we made Clan and IS weapon tech clones of eachother, we would both unbalance the game, and remove the flavor of force differences.

There is a lot to balance between the clans and IS.

Unlocked Engine Ratings vs Locked.
STD or DeathXL vs HalfdeathXL
Unlocked (14) Endo vs Locked (7)
Unlocked (14) Ferro vs Locked (7)
Unlocked DHS (3) vs locked (2)
Unlocked Jumpjets vs locked.
Rifle ACs vs Burst UACS
Volleyfire LRMs w/ min range vs Streamfire LRMs/ramped minrange

Then there are lower arm actuators on ballistics/PPCs (IS)
Omnipod switching (Clans)
Generally Smaller/Lighter weapons (clans)

The list goes on.

If I had my way, I would keep the TT declared things at their TT Values. (Exceptions: Flamers and MGs)
Then I would normalize the concepts to be balanced using variables not in Table top.

Things not covered in tabletop: (Excluding Solaris)
Acceleration/Deceleration
Laser Burn time.
Real-Time Rate of Fire
Over-range. (MWO introduced)
Jumpjet rate of climb
Projectile speed
Stream vs. volley
Acquisition time (acquiring and being acquired)


etc.. etc..


Perhaps later this morning, for fun and masochism- I'll write-up a pointless treatise (because those have changed so much in MWO...) on how to balance the two factions while keeping TT stats and applying Lore where possible.

[Lugh]

Sjorpha, on 30 September 2015 - 12:32 AM, said:

Actually if you removed the ghost heat, 12 cSPL/cSL Nova probably would be OP. The Dire is such a heavy and slow platform that it can't take advantage of boating SPLs very well, there are some fun DWF SPL gimmick builds though.

But IS SPL/SL are such weak weapons that I don't think any number of energy hardpoints could ever make them OP, and 9 is the roof for IS mechs anyways which isn't nearly enough to compete with cSPL/cSL.

The small family is a case where the clan versions really blow the IS versions out of the water by such a margin that no sane person can argue their way out of it. You need to be either blind or dishonest to even try, contrary to the medium or large pulses etc where the balance is actually pretty close.

Yes because any mech that can blow itself up in one volley is TOTALLY OP!!

[Lugin]

Livewyr, on 30 September 2015 - 04:02 AM, said:

The problem with these lines of thinking is that they only take one aspect into account when trying to balance. If we made Clan and IS weapon tech clones of eachother, we would both unbalance the game, and remove the flavor of force differences.

There is a lot to balance between the clans and IS.

Unlocked Engine Ratings vs Locked.
...

Unlocked (14) Endo vs Locked (7)
Unlocked (14) Ferro vs Locked (7)
Unlocked DHS (3) vs locked (2)
Unlocked Jumpjets vs locked.

Don't forget: Clan battlemechs are already in the pipe.
Arguments of equipment being locked balancing its baseline superiority hold no water.

-edit: typos

Edited by Lugin, 30 September 2015 - 05:14 AM.

[Livewyr]

Lugin, on 30 September 2015 - 05:11 AM, said:

Don't forget: Clan battlemechs are already in the pipe.
Arguments of equipment being locked balancing its baseline superiority hold no water.

-edit: typos

And they won't have omnipods, either. (I'm not arguing against balancing them against each other, I'm arguing that we don't balance towards clones.)

[Widowmaker1981]

Lugin, on 30 September 2015 - 05:11 AM, said:

Don't forget: Clan battlemechs are already in the pipe.
Arguments of equipment being locked balancing its baseline superiority hold no water.

-edit: typos

You're right. I Wonder what PGI is going to do to prevent the complete obsoletion of all Omnimechs when IIC mechs come out.
Hint: Full customisation (min-max engine rating, dynamic ES/FF crit placement etc) is an order of magnitude more valuable than Omnipod swapping.

PGI should have never considered releasing Clan Battlemechs (Or IS Omnis). They have nowhere to go now, its not possible to balance it. Any equipment nerfs to make IICs not ludicrously OP compared to IS mechs will render Omnis obsolete.

[SplashDown]

This entire topic is about clan wepons..wich is imo short sighted,as there are many diff factors that bring balance to this game.
Such as the fact that many clan mechs have huge center torso's or that clan probes dont detect ecm while IS probes do..
These are just a couple examples but the game is full of mechanics that balance it out..so yes clan wepons should be a lil OP ..IS gets things to counter balance this..
Game is fine as is.

[kapusta11]

Widowmaker1981, on 30 September 2015 - 05:43 AM, said:

You're right. I Wonder what PGI is going to do to prevent the complete obsoletion of all Omnimechs when IIC mechs come out.
Hint: Full customisation (min-max engine rating, dynamic ES/FF crit placement etc) is an order of magnitude more valuable than Omnipod swapping.

PGI should have never considered releasing Clan Battlemechs (Or IS Omnis). They have nowhere to go now, its not possible to balance it. Any equipment nerfs to make IICs not ludicrously OP compared to IS mechs will render Omnis obsolete.

Battlemechs have either limited amount of hardpoints or those hardpoints being located mostly in one side of the mech. Some of them will be as good as optimized omnis but not better.

Edited by kapusta11, 30 September 2015 - 05:59 AM.

[Khobai]

Quote

Don't forget: Clan battlemechs are already in the pipe.
Arguments of equipment being locked balancing its baseline superiority hold no water.

for all we know clan battlemechs wont even be viable

they could end up having so many negative quirks that theres no point to using them

its ALL speculation at this point. no one can say if theyll be overpowered or underpowered. we just dont know.

Quote

PGI should have never considered releasing Clan Battlemechs (Or IS Omnis). They have nowhere to go now, its not possible to balance it. Any equipment nerfs to make IICs not ludicrously OP compared to IS mechs will render Omnis obsolete.

Not releasing IIC mechs wouldve been a HUGE mistake. IIC mechs are an easy way for PGI to doubledip because they can reskin existing IS mechs as clan mechs with minimal effort compared to creating entirely new mechs.

Edited by Khobai, 30 September 2015 - 06:10 AM.

[Mystere]

Duke Nedo, on 29 September 2015 - 11:42 PM, said:

Indeed. What it needs is one of these:

Edited by Mystere, 30 September 2015 - 06:17 AM.

[Livewyr]

I volunteer to be benevolent dictator.

[Mcgral18]

Widowmaker1981, on 30 September 2015 - 05:43 AM, said:

You're right. I Wonder what PGI is going to do to prevent the complete obsoletion of all Omnimechs when IIC mechs come out.
Hint: Full customisation (min-max engine rating, dynamic ES/FF crit placement etc) is an order of magnitude more valuable than Omnipod swapping.

PGI should have never considered releasing Clan Battlemechs (Or IS Omnis). They have nowhere to go now, its not possible to balance it. Any equipment nerfs to make IICs not ludicrously OP compared to IS mechs will render Omnis obsolete.

Most of the things are mediocre, or worse than current offerings.

Hunch will compete with the Crow as a Laserboat, with more heatsinks that can jump. It will be the best of the pack.

Jenner will (more than likely) lack durability compared to the Cheetah. Cooler and faster as a result, but you now how those CTs go.


The Fatties lack separate ballistic locations and Energy hardpoints, so they offer nothing new, and nothing better than current God Tier options. Generally better than their IS equivalent (I think I'd still prefer the Sword and Boarded 733C+quirks), but no new level of power creep.

Something with high mounts, separate ballistic locations and 4+E hardpoints? Now you've got some powercreep, and the tonnage to play with.

[kapusta11]

Mcgral18, on 30 September 2015 - 06:47 AM, said:

Something with high mounts, separate ballistic locations and 4+E hardpoints? Now you've got some powercreep, and the tonnage to play with.

Like Blood Asp OMNImech?

[Mcgral18]

Tarogato, on 30 September 2015 - 02:14 AM, said:

If I had MWO balance at my finger tips, I would partially undo many of the above changes, bringing clan lasers closer to TT, making clans less OP.

cSPL becomes 5 damage.
cMPL becomes 7 damage, 5 heat.
cLPL becomes 11 damage.
IS ML becomes 3 heat.
IS SL becomes 1 heat.
All clan laser durations increased by 0.10 seconds. (or 0.05s at minimum to start with)
cGauss charge time increased by some amount. (okay, it's not a laser, but it's part of the problem - Gauss-vomit meta. Clan and IS gauss have the exact same stats, except clan weighs less and uses fewer slots for absolutely no drawbacks. I would propose that IS Gauss charge time be reduced to 0.70 seconds and cGauss charge time increased to 0.80 seconds.)

I guess those are simpler.

isML and SL changes I fully support.

Burn times...I can support on ERML and LPL, but not the other pulse lasers.

You don't want to make the ERML too much better than the cMPL.