92 replies to this topic

[Homeskilit]

One of the reasons the Death Ball is so effective is because people do not understand it nor how to counter it, so I will attempt to explain it.

The Firing Line (Red troops) and Death Ball (Blue troops) were the primary tactics in the Napoleonic Era of warfare. The French favored the Death Ball (called a Column) and used it to great effect, in fact they nearly conquered all of Europe with this tactic. Why? Because no one could stand toe to toe with them. When you are in a thin line and the mass of enemy is coming towards you it is frightening, everyone broke. So why do we not call Europe France right now? Because the English had DISCIPLINE! (Not going to discuss the winter campaign in Russia right now).

Notice how many front facing Red guys are able to fire? Notice how many front facing Blue guys are able to fire? That means ALL the red guys are pouring their fire into the Blue guys in front? The Blue guys will lose. Now your team is going to take damage and you are going to lose troops, but the Line will prevail every time as long as they HOLD. For every player who does not participate in the Firing Line, the ability for it to stop the Death Ball drops.

Now once the Firing Line has been achieved, and the Death Ball has been stopped, the game changes, you must now adapt to these changes in order to win. It is completely possible the other team sees your Firing Line and adjusts their strategy, It is up to you and your team to determine what best to do from then on, but a complete, unwavering Firing Line will always stop a Death Ball.

Edited by Homeskilit, 29 September 2015 - 09:46 PM.

[Sader325]

sorry but to me that looks like blue is going to wreck red's ****.

[Aresye]

Sader325, on 29 September 2015 - 09:48 PM, said:

sorry but to me that looks like blue is going to wreck red's ****.

Depends...

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

The thought of getting pugs to stand in a line, oh boy.

oh and shooting at them and expecting them to just take it.

[Homeskilit]

Dakota1000, on 29 September 2015 - 09:51 PM, said:

The thought of getting pugs to stand in a line, oh boy.

oh and shooting at them and expecting them to just take it.

That is part of the problem, I kind of feel this needs to be somehow part of the tutorial. So new players, and everyone really, will understand the characteristics of both. The Firing Line only works if they hold the line. That pic of Leonidas was perfect Aresye!

Edited by Homeskilit, 29 September 2015 - 09:57 PM.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Sadly discipline and teamwork is quite lacking among many players. Firing lines are brutally effective when they work (just look at b33f's crab warfare video or some of those lrm boat team videos even), but they don't work when nobody is firing.

Edit:
My dual UAC2 kit fox has the build it does simply for scaring off PUG ridge sniper lines, they run the moment a shot lands near them. kept a whole lance suppressed while the assaults flanked them once on tourmaline.

Edited by Dakota1000, 29 September 2015 - 10:01 PM.

[Rushin Roulette]

Good theory, however this only works in an arena style setting (ie. no obstruction of view and no large elevation differences)

As soon as there is any obstruction between the groups, the deathball will win in every case if the opponents are evenly matched and both sides have discipline. The reason for this is that the deathball shooters are able to focus a smaller part of the firing line while safe from the larger part of the firing line and push around the obstruction bit by bit to open up new targets one after the other.

The other advantage a deathball has is that it is mobile and can thus reorganise itself on the fly by letting damaged mechs fall back and fresh mechs take the place of the vanguard. An immobile firing line can not do this and focused targets have no chance of protecting themselves (thus loosing the complete mech as opposed to the possibility of saving armour through vanguard substitiuation and retaining fire power).

[KuroNyra]

Homeskilit, on 29 September 2015 - 09:44 PM, said:

One of the reasons the Death Ball is so effective is because people do not understand it nor how to counter it, so I will attempt to explain it.

The Firing Line (Red troops) and Death Ball (Blue troops) were the primary tactics in the Napoleonic Era of warfare. The French favored the Death Ball (called a Column) and used it to great effect, in fact they nearly conquered all of Europe with this tactic. Why? Because no one could stand toe to toe with them. When you are in a thin line and the mass of enemy is coming towards you it is frightening, everyone broke. So why do we not call Europe France right now? Because the English had DISCIPLINE! (Not going to discuss the winter campaign in Russia right now).

You speak about the Napoleon war I presume?
Maybe you should try a closer example of that.
The Germans or the Russians. The former with the Blitzkrieg, the Latter with Deep-something.
Basicly use a great force in a single point and rush it like crazy. (Supported by aviation and tank.)


It worked pretty well for them if you ask me.



But Firing Line > All because it looks cooler.

[Homeskilit]

KuroNyra, on 29 September 2015 - 10:05 PM, said:

You speak about the Napoleon war I presume?
Maybe you should try a closer example of that.
The Germans or the Russians. The former with the Blitzkrieg, the Latter with Deep-something.
Basicly use a great force in a single point and rush it like crazy. (Supported by aviation and tank.)

It worked pretty well for them if you ask me.

But Firing Line > All because it looks cooler.

The blitzkrieg was a bit different because that was a tactic for fighting a war not a battle. It was successful because they used ALL their tank divisions against a Line that stretched for hundreds of miles, they also had the element of surprise.

[Mazzyplz]

both tactics are good, in a place where firing line cannot be placed effectively, the death train will run over you!!!

but yes; firing line is also perfectly good - master it.

do like i do - remember toto's advice:

Homeskilit, on 29 September 2015 - 10:09 PM, said:

The blitzkrieg was a bit different because that was a tactic for fighting a war not a battle.

that's false, the first battles of {Godwin's Law} germany vs poland were a great victory at battle level; they ultimately lost the war

[627]

Just want to add this. Firing lines are great in theory. but the truth is, even on the bigger maps, you have no space for that. If you stand in the open for a longer time (say... 5 seconds?) you'll get shot by something with long range weapons, poking over the hills.

So you take cover. And there's the problem, our maps have only few places where you can set up this kind of tactics. And then you have the enemy walk right into your ambush.

There's nearly no map where you can move in a bigger formation without blocking yourself or your sides.

If you get a good position and can form a kill box you can defeat a death ball easily. But don't expect your enemy to let you do that without resistance.

[Mazzyplz]

both tactics were used in ww2, and both tactics are used today, but aggression is better; take the forest of the ardennes; the defense was not effective so the marginot line was ineffective.

likewise the gun emplacements in normandy, were powerful but they were spread throughout the coast. a powerful enough attack would break through; such is the nature of modern warfare; the gun always beats the kevlar once you get a big enough rifle. the missile always busts the bunker when you launch it from high enough. the tank always melts to the anti tank gun even though it is armored... the examples go on and on. initiative is key

you have to use modern war (read: ww2 and on) tactics in this game, napoleonic is more for the euro server

[LordNothing]

generally speaking if your formation can get more guns on an enemy formation than they can on you, you have the advantage. in a death ball a lot of mechs are in the way and so they are essentially going to have to wait for the front of the ball to die before they can fight. more experienced players will cycle to the back with damage but still its sub optimal. its also good to have the lrm boats in the rear of the ball so it is essentially a formation where everyone can shoot. still a firing line is a good clean simple solution to the problem. everybody tanks unless the enemy focuses fire, but you can use the same tactic, possibly even more effectively.

[Mazzyplz]

LordNothing, on 29 September 2015 - 10:23 PM, said:

generally speaking if your formation can get more guns on an enemy formation than they can on you, you have the advantage. in a death ball a lot of mechs are in the way and so they are essentially going to have to wait for the front of the ball to die before they can fight. more experienced players will cycle to the back with damage but still its sub optimal. its also good to have the lrm boats in the rear of the ball so it is essentially a formation where everyone can shoot. still a firing line is a good clean simple solution to the problem. everybody tanks unless the enemy focuses fire, but you can use the same tactic, possibly even more effectively.

that is true and all but we all know the game of mwo is not so simple; even when firing line was dominating very quickly a counter strategy came up - light mech players would come and say hey i will turn them! and they went behind the firing line (all their backs pointing in the same direction) and shoot at 2 or 3. job done.

no static solution is perfect.


deathball should be used where needed and so should "camping"

and now death ball has more counters in the form of artillery.
you put the red smoke and quickly the firing line will be out of order

[Homeskilit]

You guys are looking too deep into this. This is just an explanation of basic tactics. In the case of WW2 there were many many many other factors that went into each of those battles. That is why I used Napoleonic Warfare, it was much simpler.

You are correct in that it will not work on certain maps, but at the same time the concept of bringing as many guns to bear against your enemy CAN be used on those maps. Also the key here is to stop the Death Ball, once you have done that, the match changes and different tactics will be used.

What I am trying to do here is make people aware of the different tactics that are possible and how to utilize them. If someone calls for a firing line at a certain point, it does not help that half the team does not know what that is.

Edited by Homeskilit, 29 September 2015 - 10:28 PM.

[Radbane]

Sader325, on 29 September 2015 - 09:48 PM, said:

sorry but to me that looks like blue is going to wreck red's ****.

That's because there's 110 Blue troops against 28 reds on that image. The blue should wreck the reds.

Let's put it in a 12v12 perspective


O
O
O
O
O..................OO
O...............OOOO
O...............OOOO
O..................OO
O
O
O
O


Edited because all my spaces were erased

Edited by Radbane, 29 September 2015 - 10:34 PM.

[Homeskilit]

The image is just a visual to show how many troops at the front of each formation are able to apply direct fire.

Edited by Homeskilit, 29 September 2015 - 10:30 PM.

[Lefty McBoom]

Seems that lately, when my pug drops do a death ball and don't move, we get surrounded and stomped. When the ball moves then it can work pretty well. A moving line - I call it a pain train - can also be very effective. I think the key is movement, or at least knowing when to move and when to hunker down. Too many new players think this is some twitchy, Rambo, CoD thing and that's when they have problems. When you play as a team, it usually works out no matter what you do. Look at some of the vids by the ACES unit, or the 228th. They fight as one machine and do really well.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

A firing line with both sides having equal numbers works very well, simply focus your fire so that they don't have the chance to send people to the back of the ball and you will find that they... "drop the ball"

Had to force that one a bit.

[Homeskilit]

Mazzyplz, on 29 September 2015 - 10:27 PM, said:

light mech players would come and say hey i will turn them! and they went behind the firing line (all their backs pointing in the same direction) and shoot at 2 or 3. job done.

That is why you have your own lights to counter them! The match just got even more interesting because the outcome of the lights fight could very well decide the match.

Mazzyplz, on 29 September 2015 - 10:27 PM, said:

no static solution is perfect.

deathball should be used where needed and so should "camping"

A firing line does not have to be static and I agree the correct tactics need to be applied to the correct situation but in order for that to work everyone needs to understand the tactics, hence this thread.

Mazzyplz, on 29 September 2015 - 10:27 PM, said:

and now death ball has more counters in the form of artillery.
you put the red smoke and quickly the firing line will be out of order

Just the same, the line can hit the death ball with the red smoke.

Lefty McBoom, on 29 September 2015 - 10:31 PM, said:

Look at some of the vids by the ACES unit, or the 228th. They fight as one machine and do really well.

I need to check these out, sounds awesome.

Dakota1000, on 29 September 2015 - 10:32 PM, said:

A firing line with both sides having equal numbers works very well

Sounds fun does it not? Two solid firing lines firing at each other as the move closer and closer, may the best gunners win!