92 replies to this topic

[Trainee]

The Death Ball is effective in your example because you can only focus fire on the front line. Every mech will be firing everything to destroy those 2-3 mechs that are leading the charge. However, mechs generate heat. After you manage to destroy the leading 2-3 mechs, most of your team will be very overheated and looking to cool off.

Does your team stand there and take fire from the remaining 9 mechs, without being able to return it due to overheating? If you do, you will probably win, with decent target selection. Most times no. Some will just turn away, some will run and others will stay to fight. This will accomplish the objective, which is to break your line and scatter your forces.

You can see this strategy the best on a corner in one of the maps. If 1-2 push around it, they will likely be killed. If the whole team pushes it, you have the above scenario. Good teams will hold that corner and return fire when able, taking the damage in return. But most pugs matches won't hold, they will crumble and be scattered.

[Thorqemada]

Firing Line is so Musketeer Era.....

[LordNothing]

Mazzyplz, on 29 September 2015 - 10:27 PM, said:

that is true and all but we all know the game of mwo is not so simple; even when firing line was dominating very quickly a counter strategy came up - light mech players would come and say hey i will turn them! and they went behind the firing line (all their backs pointing in the same direction) and shoot at 2 or 3. job done.

no static solution is perfect.


deathball should be used where needed and so should "camping"

and now death ball has more counters in the form of artillery.
you put the red smoke and quickly the firing line will be out of order

idk ive dropped as pug slots with units in cw and two people were assigned light hunting duty, usually in streak crows. so you could still get a 10 man firing line. your team has to be disciplined enough to let the lights attack them and hope the hunters do their job. it works sometimes but you usually end up loosing a mech or two. but the damage you deal is quite good.

[Bregor Edain]

Thorqemada, on 29 September 2015 - 10:54 PM, said:

Firing Line is so Musketeer Era.....

That is still being used by militaries to this day.

[Homeskilit]

Trainee, on 29 September 2015 - 10:52 PM, said:

Does your team stand there and take fire from the remaining 9 mechs, without being able to return it due to overheating? If you do, you will probably win, with decent target selection.

For one you would probably not be facing all 9 other mechs unless they were also spreading into a line formation, second whoever is able to fire from the death ball now has 10+ mechs to shoot at and unless they focus they wont do much damage. The line does require you to have discipline and stand in the face of incoming damage, which is why players (especially new ones) need to be educated on these tactics.

LordNothing, on 29 September 2015 - 10:57 PM, said:

idk ive dropped as pug slots with units in cw and two people were assigned light hunting duty, usually in streak crows. so you could still get a 10 man firing line. your team has to be disciplined enough to let the lights attack them and hope the hunters do their job. it works sometimes but you usually end up loosing a mech or two. but the damage you deal is quite good.

Hunting lights in a streak crow is so much fun, I cannot wait for IS to get streak 4s and 6s.

[Soldier91]

Homeskilit, on 29 September 2015 - 10:27 PM, said:

You guys are looking too deep into this. This is just an explanation of basic tactics. In the case of WW2 there were many many many other factors that went into each of those battles. That is why I used Napoleonic Warfare, it was much simpler.

You are correct in that it will not work on certain maps, but at the same time the concept of bringing as many guns to bear against your enemy CAN be used on those maps. Also the key here is to stop the Death Ball, once you have done that, the match changes and different tactics will be used.

What I am trying to do here is make people aware of the different tactics that are possible and how to utilize them. If someone calls for a firing line at a certain point, it does not help that half the team does not know what that is.

I haven't studied the Napoleonic wars much but it was much more complicated than WWII in some ways. A firing line like in Napoleons time would of been because of the technological limitations of muskets men had to group up and fire in volleys because they were not accurate, so that second line of people would shoot while the first line was reloading after shooting; now that I think of it gauss rifles are sort of like muskets with the charge to shoot time waiting for a burning whick to come down on the firing pan. Napoleon was trained for artillery naturally a leader is going to favor what they know most likely so a lot of his tactics revolved around that. Those types of formations for infantry were pretty standard up till the invention of Trench Warfare during the American Civil War, and WWII tactics was trying to counter trench warfare tanks were like the reintroduction of chariots that use to dominate infantry in most battles until the invention of the horse saddle changed the role of calvalry. Infrantry formations were fairly standard from the greeks up till the romans and didn't really change much in the dark ages until firearms and artillery became more prolific with minor variations for different circumstances.

A lot of the times in some games people just need to close into brawling distance when they're losing the firingline or deathball game instead of getting picked off one at a time. Pug games are going to be random though that's some of the fun of it.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

While all this talk about firing lines makes me happy, I was thinking of something a little more revolutionary. (that's a reference mhmm)

Instead of clustering up in a single large group the team could counter a firing line by being in a large scattered group. As long as all members coordinate their attacks the firing line will be chipped away while the attackers fade in and out of cover.

Think an army of hill humpers, poptarts, and peekers against a rigid line of gauss crabs. Given gauss charge and laser burn times, the defenders would be lucky to get much damage done at all.

[Mazzyplz]

LordNothing, on 29 September 2015 - 10:57 PM, said:

idk ive dropped as pug slots with units in cw and two people were assigned light hunting duty, usually in streak crows. so you could still get a 10 man firing line. your team has to be disciplined enough to let the lights attack them and hope the hunters do their job. it works sometimes but you usually end up loosing a mech or two. but the damage you deal is quite good.

you can still break up a firing line by just putting 2 red plumes in front of them and making the charge

if the assault mechs are not in it 100% the firing line will fail. and once an assault is pounded with enough airstrike and arty they will move to the back it is actually the only choice, no ams will alleviate a few airstrikes

and theres your opening to go to town on their mechs

Edited by Mazzyplz, 29 September 2015 - 11:34 PM.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Nobody expects the artillery! _inquisition

[Homeskilit]

Dakota1000, on 29 September 2015 - 11:24 PM, said:

While all this talk about firing lines makes me happy, I was thinking of something a little more revolutionary. (that's a reference mhmm)

Instead of clustering up in a single large group the team could counter a firing line by being in a large scattered group. As long as all members coordinate their attacks the firing line will be chipped away while the attackers fade in and out of cover.

Now we have tactics and counters being used instead of one team out death balling the other team!

Mazzyplz, on 29 September 2015 - 11:30 PM, said:

you can still break up a firing line by just putting 2 red plumes in front of them and making the charge

if the assault mechs are not in it 100% the firing line will fail. and once an assault is pounded with enough airstrike and arty they will move to the back it is actually the only choice, no ams will alleviate a few airstrikes

and theres your opening to go to town on their mechs

You make it seem like the assault mechs are doing nothing to dodge the art strikes (you do not need to move that far to avoid most of the damage) and that your own team is doing nothing while all this is going on.

[Mazzyplz]

Homeskilit, on 29 September 2015 - 11:43 PM, said:

You make it seem like the assault mechs are doing nothing to dodge the art strikes (you do not need to move that far to avoid most of the damage) and that your own team is doing nothing while all this is going on.

what can they do? nothing. it is an area denial tool - your medium mech isn't going to save you.

yes the blast radius is not that big but if you put it on the ridge they are humping; they have to abandon that aiming position and that's enough to capitalize on it

it only takes assaults not being at the ridge to make the firing line fail

[Johnny Z]

Aresye Kerensky, on 29 September 2015 - 09:51 PM, said:

Depends...

This

Ball is the classic mob formation lol. Completely useless against a good team.

Edited by Johnny Z, 29 September 2015 - 11:53 PM.

[Karl Streiger]

I love tactic theorems.
And i love the firing line - also known as overlapping fields of fire.

As said the main problem is range and obstacles - a reason i say that Caustic and Alpine are the only maps for real MechCombat - all the other maps are dangerous for Mechs and to fight there should be avoided.


I think it should be possible to split the line in two groups - that keep an LOS to each other - as an example on caustic a group on the plains and another group in the water.
Important both groups should be able to fire at chocke points while the enemy should not be able to isolate a single group.
If the enemy crosses the caldera - the line could be accomplished when both teams are moving - etc.

Its all about positioning - but considering the low TTK you don't have much time - you have to stick to a plan - and there is hardly enough time to change it. Reason why Nascar and Deathballing are so effective -they are stupid simple

[Johnny Z]

I played alot of sports from an early age. The little ones all chase the puck or ball and is hilarious. It really is funny. Later players learn positions. Now Im thinking about the lack of skill in pro sports and how pathetic it is at the moment great.

One of the last times I watch an NHL game a player tripped over his own feet and then looks at the player next to him like he did it. I still laugh about it. Bunch of bumbs in the NHL at the moment, cant stand to watch.

https://www.youtube....e&v=2UkP0FtSih8



World Cup going on right now. The best sport going at the moment. Totaly relevant to the topic also.

Edited by Johnny Z, 30 September 2015 - 12:24 AM.

[Rushin Roulette]

You mean like this one?

[Johnny Z]

Rushin Roulette, on 30 September 2015 - 12:26 AM, said:

You mean like this one?

Lol but I am talking rugby, the toughest team sport. Rugby is a brutal sport but also one that requires the highest sportsmanship. Almost no penalties will be issued the entitre match or stoppage of play. Its to brutal to even think about dirty play. Really.



Also football is a game of endurance and skill and positioning, like rugby, but football has its charm to.

Edited by Johnny Z, 30 September 2015 - 12:30 AM.

[Mazzyplz]

this is the way i see it; you can't just decide on a tactic as foregone conclusion and disregard all of the other variables.



the point in the last drawing being you could provide more firepower for focusing if you needed to

and not expose your back dead on to do so

[Mazzyplz]

besides like i said there are other ways to beat a firing line..

you want to see a push being used historically to annihilate a firing line and change history?

look no further than admiral nelson

http://theconsul.org/?p=3417



if you don't try this in alpine peaks you could even make this work in mwo

https://en.wikipedia...he_Nelson_Touch

and i quote:"Nelson planned to divide his fleet into three sections. The largest part would engage closely with one section of the enemy's fleet crushing it with greater numbers. The other ships, sailing in two columns, would cut the enemy line and prevent them from coming to the aid of their comrades. The enemy fleet could then be destroyed piecemeal."

they are describing a more or less typical mwo push when it finally happens, assaults come in and tank one side of enemy formation, light mechs put the other side in disarray.
the death ball takes the ridge

Edited by Mazzyplz, 30 September 2015 - 01:18 AM.

[BSK]

Homeskilit, on 29 September 2015 - 09:44 PM, said:

It is up to you and your team to determine what best to do from then on, but a complete, unwavering Firing Line will always stop a Death Ball.

This is a much better explanation: https://en.wikipedia.../Crossing_the_T

[Karl Streiger]

Well if anybody still have the videos from PGIs first and only tournament you can see a classical crossing the T - committed by the Fallen 13 - a joint group of some Germans

Afaik - there were 2 Atlas in the front that did use defensive movement and moved right in the enemy line.
They did split the enemy and were able to concentrate there fire on each group.

Edited by Karl Streiger, 30 September 2015 - 12:49 AM.