112 replies to this topic

[Khobai]

Heavy mechs definitely go way too fast. Mediums are supposed to be significantly faster than heavies. Yet theres heavy mechs going 90kph, which is practically as fast as most mediums, and it ends up making the medium weight class just a way worse version of the heavy weight class.

They need to completely redo the whole skill system to take speed tweak away from fast heavies. The skill tree needs to be revamped so each mech has its own skill tree. That way they can give speed tweak to the mechs that need it and give a different skill to the mechs that shouldnt have it.

In general, mechs should go the following speeds. If speed tweak makes a mech go faster than its weight class should go then it probably shouldnt get speed tweak.

Tiny Lights: 150-170kph
Lights: 110-150kph
Mediums: 90-120kph
Heavies: 60-80kph
Assaults: 50-70kph

Edited by Khobai, 19 October 2015 - 04:34 AM.

[Jack Dawes]

Sarlic, on 30 September 2015 - 01:16 PM, said:

What can i say? Don't you believe me?

Take a quick glimp of your 10 last solo matches and you tell me how much you did go round the map?

I am sure everyone will come up with atleast one time.

Quick summary: In my opinion this game is turning on speed. The ACH was one of the few mechs to break through the speed barrier. In my opinion it's still one of the most imbalanced mechs ingame prior balance. But opinions may disagree. But hey i am just telling how i think about this mech. It's not only the ACH you know. But it's a prime example of a expanding problem.

The reason that i am bringing this up is i am noticing i even fall more and more behind with the Atlas. And i am not the only Assault. Even some Heavies fall out of the boat. The Direwolf for example with a lower clocked travel speed is sharing the same problem. Other Assaults are biting the dust soon as well if they dont put bigger engines in their mechs just to catch up.

Since the implentation of PSR or whatever you name it i have been noticing a huge increase of Assault lances getting annilhilated. Specifically talking about the solo q. Some player even disconnect when they see a NASCAR is going on. I can't blame them though. Often you have to cut alot of corners, lose valueable armor or even chunks of your HP to catch up. Positioning is the key. So is a fireline. But good luck trying to create a counter fireline witth a 12 random.

In group que this is less of a problem. Because they know how to support the Assaults.
Due all that fine powercreeping you see the speed differences can get up to 30 km/h because of all these shiny IS/Clan toys. Not very surpising (and most people do know this) that a good Heavy practically beats a Assault in both mobility and firepower* (*certain cases, certain circumstances)

PGI is running after the facts. They are making the maps bigger and the spawnpoints wider across each map. A bigger map has pro's but also con's. You still see the very same behaviour of NASCAR on the New River City and even Forest Colony. PUGs tend to get a targer fix and go for empty space and try to 'flank' away. Most of the map gets unused or not even touched.

The new maps are not simply big enough and the spawn locations are borked.
You decide if i am talking the truth or not.

Am i spewing like a drunk man talking gibberish? I personally don't think so. Balance is however a other subject which i wont discuss here. I personally think thats even in a worse state. (high alpha mentality, still on-going bad weaponvalues, 'meta')

Some mechs are designed to go fast. Sure we can discuss endless about the fact that these mechs are designed to work on speed. But we still need to deal with this underlying problem. Some mechs are getting more and more in trouble just because of the speed alone. The map is one problem, but so is the general gameplay.

The game has been seriously screwed terms of gameplay. Everything looks like speedy gonzales.

Atleast in my personal opinion i don't like the way we're heading. And frankly it gets worse with more mech packs coming down the road.

So what are your personal thoughts about the above? And how do you feel about the current speed?

Thanks for reading.

I generally play lights and mediums. The problem exists for me as well. I try to support the BUFFs, but at the point that it means that I'm strung way back of the pack and I survive an even shorter amount of time. Frustrating...

[sycocys]

100% agree that the maps are no where near big enough.

Also I wonder how it would affect the overall speed issue if speed tweak only unlocked access to a module you could use?

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

FupDup, on 30 September 2015 - 01:23 PM, said:

The Big-Engine-Stomp-Meta (BESM) didn't start with the Arctic Cheetah, not by a long shot. It's been a trend since around the original Reign of the Poptarts, particularly with mechs like the Victor (which could once use an XL engine without gimping itself).

The BESM became much more apparent and mainstream in Puglandia after the Timber Wolf and Stormcrow showed up, being able to use large XL engines without crippling themselves.

The Cheetah in particular has pretty much average speed for a light in MWO, and can be at least slightly outran by several IS lights (but its other traits more than make up for that).

RIP Flea

sycocys, on 19 October 2015 - 06:08 AM, said:

100% agree that the maps are no where near big enough.

Also I wonder how it would affect the overall speed issue if speed tweak only unlocked access to a module you could use?

Yeah the spread on NASCAR isnt big enough, and you dont get the assaults separated enough

[LordDante]

Titannium, on 01 October 2015 - 12:35 AM, said:

Sarlic its also about leadership.

Yesterday I was so sick with RC with citadel daytona, and somehow im getting this + FC more then 50% of all my maps.
So once I saw AGAIN the loading screen i said myself, no. You will command this game, for the first time.

Game started, I turn map on and saw usual ********, all pointing to citadel bay.

Chat - I said guys, this time all go to D4. People somehow understand. 11 went there. I was in mauler so was getting there later, and when i did , i see all again turn back to citadel bay. So Im saying now all go D5/D6. ONLY 3 guys followed me, (luckily also guy with DDC. With him i made the whole game-later). So 3 guys with me in D6, rest pinned in bay.... So again, guys, please move D5/D6... after 2 minutes they all SLOWLY goes under my command.
Enemy still shooting empty bay. Guys were D6, I went in front. Stalker killed there 2 my men. I got him down. I realize im "in citadel" so returned back.
Huge fire-fight there, with immersion i never saw in citadel before around D6 and buildings.
5 mins left, from our team remain me + that DDC, and catapult. Enemy has unknown force (ecm) of 4 mens.
K, my part I say , hey lets go back to D5/6 tunnel, so we did. We fortify there Guys were badly damaged and I had +20% health over them. But enemy team was smart also, they split 2+2 on each side of the tuneel and strike. So i was quickly moving upfront, to take the damage for my guys. We got 2 of em, they killed our DDC. 1 minute remain..... cover, and it was a tie.

One of best games I had. first time i saw people write in chat WOW, that was a game etc......

The point from this is, even in assault you could make the game.

i noticed this too
very often u can win the day if u tell people "the plan!"
use voip and say ur stuff so that they do it,and not like " uh i have a request ... it might be cool to form up on the assaults ... i mean ohhh just my 2cts you now "
USE UR VOICE

[Jman5]

MechWarrior5152251, on 01 October 2015 - 06:25 AM, said:

Big Engine Stomp would lose every time if the slower team stayed together. The slower team has more firepower than the faster team unless they are all dirty Clanbabies....

My experience is that teams that wait for particularly slow assaults to group up before moving out almost always get clobbered unless the other team is equally sluggish. Not only is it an indicator of a bad assault pilot, but it gives the opponents time to get into position. Usually it goes like this...

Team: wait, wait, wait (taps foot impatiently)

3 minutes later...

Team: Ok we are all here now lets move out without any scouting because lights were "escorting"

Team Walks into firing line

Team dies

Direwolf: noob team!

I can't help but feel like some players expect faster mechs to be in two or even three places at once. They want lights to:
1. Scout
2. Escort
3. Wait for the assaults

You either cut lights/mediums loose and let them scout/attack ahead, or you play blind with the very real chance of getting cut down by a firing line.

[LordDante]

let the lights do their job but the mediums and heavys should protect the assaults and vice versa.=win

[Sarlic]

Jman5, on 19 October 2015 - 07:14 AM, said:

My experience is that teams that wait for particularly slow assaults to group up before moving out almost always get clobbered unless the other team is equally sluggish. Not only is it an indicator of a bad assault pilot, but it gives the opponents time to get into position. Usually it goes like this...

Team: wait, wait, wait (taps foot impatiently)

3 minutes later...

Team: Ok we are all here now lets move out without any scouting because lights were "escorting"

Team Walks into firing line

Team dies

Direwolf: noob team!

I can't help but feel like some players expect faster mechs to be in two or even three places at once. They want lights to:
1. Scout
2. Escort
3. Wait for the assaults

You either cut lights/mediums loose and let them scout/attack ahead, or you play blind with the very real chance of getting cut down by a firing line.

It's not about fully waiting. It's more pressing the W key as a medium, heavy or whatever and don't care about the Assault.

I mean circling around the Assaults like most do in group que is pretty effective. Atleast in my Atlas i practically double the firepower as a Assault.

I do not mean group up and deatball around but more a eye and circle around the Assaults but maintaining backup / support if neccesary. So when either one of the Assaults gets attacked make sure to jump in the heat and decide the outcome of that enemy mech.

Unfortunately most people think that grouping up or death balling with Assault on the lower speed (which by any means i mean almost all mechs on the speed of Assault) isnt always handy like you said.

People should press the W key not so deep, keep a eye on the Assaults, retreat if neccesary and circle around them.

Edited by Sarlic, 19 October 2015 - 08:05 AM.

[Tombstoner]

Sarlic, on 19 October 2015 - 08:03 AM, said:

It's not about fully waiting. It's more pressing the W key as a medium, heavy or whatever and don't care about the Assault.

I mean circling around the Assaults like most do in group que is pretty effective. Atleast in my Atlas i practically double the firepower as a Assault.

I do not mean group up and deatball around but more a eye and circle around the Assaults but maintaining backup / support if neccesary. So when either one of the Assaults gets attacked make sure to jump in the heat and decide the outcome of that enemy mech.

Unfortunately most people think that grouping up or death balling with Assault on the lower speed (which by any means i mean almost all mechs on the speed of Assault) isnt always handy like you said.

People should press the W key not so deep, keep a eye on the Assaults, retreat if neccesary and circle around them.

The point your making originates with PGI's TT to FPS port. What i call cut and paste development. I have not seen anything to indicate PGI took into account what happens when you port TT states/to hit rules into a FPS. SKill Based targeting completely alters the relation ship within mech design cost functions.

TT was not perfect but in MWO speed is way more important then armor. In TT mech size had no effect on chance to hit. In MWO some mechs are the size on the atlas center torso. mech rotation speed is tied to engine size. These 2 facts makes the armor on assaults much less effective then the armor on a light. When artistic design effects a mechs durability somethings wrong with the game. A classic example of this is the awesome assault mech.

PGI needs to understand the interaction between speed, mech volume/cross section/geometry and overlay armor co-factors to normalize mech performance. This should have been done in 2012. Or one can argue its the players not the game design rules that are the cause of the problem. Pugs need to learn to play is all. Torso changing is strategy right....

Until PGI addresses speed/cross sectional interactions, this game is fubar, but working as intended.

[DivineEvil]

If players can't face the enemy, then it's not the game's issue. It's the player-base issue.
Ok?

[Nightmare1]

Historically speaking, speed has always been a powerful weapon in war. The faster you are, the better you will be able to attack, defend, and counterattack. General Patton exemplified that in WWII, as did the German Army with its Blitzkireg.

Personally speaking, in virtually every game I play, I always go for a fast character with a lot of power. I like glass cannons because I believe that they are the best weapon to use. They have the power and speed to really wreck the enemy. Even if the character doesn't have the power levels I'd like, I'll still take it if it has the speed. Speed is life.

As for MWO, PGI should never have spread out the spawn points. It limits the team's mobility in the sense that it has to move to one of maybe two different sectors to group up right off the bat. This wastes time right out of the gate and puts slower teams at a significant disadvantage. If PGI would fix the drop zones back, then the gap between slow teams and fast teams would be somewhat mitigated, though not closed.

I can't say that having fast teams win more commonly than slow teams is a bad thing, because that's simply a part of strategy. If Team 1 is fast and hard-hitting, then it probably doesn't have a lot of defensive power. It's up to Team 2 to recognize that and use that fact to its advantage. I've seen strong defensive teams rally after losing as many as a lance of Mechs to a fast team, and then turn the tables and win through superior firepower, armor, and discipline.

Ultimately, these are the issues at stake:

1) Speed is more advantageous than armor.
2) PGI scattered the drop zones such that slow teams and Mechs are disadvantaged.
3) PGI is trying to build bigger maps, but it doesn't solve the problem since teams still have to group up with the slowest lance, and are therefore limited to a narrow selection of strategic options.
4) We don't need bigger maps quite as much as we need consolidated drops and better speed options. Let there be a new Unlock Tier beyond Mastery that grants specific bonuses to each class, with the Assault Class getting a second Speed Tweak boost.
5) Lastly, the speed disparity is felt most sharply in the Pugging queues where teams are generally disorganized. Pugs need to be cognizant of this and realize that taking a Dire Wolf into a pug drop will probably mean getting themselves killed. Personally, when I go pugging in an Assault, I only do it with fast Assaults like the BattleMaster or Zeus.

sycocys, on 19 October 2015 - 06:08 AM, said:

100% agree that the maps are no where near big enough.

Also I wonder how it would affect the overall speed issue if speed tweak only unlocked access to a module you could use?

It wouldn't affect the issue at all. Think about it. Everyone would use that module because it would be one of the best modules in the game. It would become standardized module equipment just like the Radar Deprivation Module is currently. The only difference is that it would be just another money sink.

Now, what PGI ought to do, is release a Speed Tweak Module for Assaults only. Let there be some class-specific modules to help develop role warfare and mitigate disparities between weight classes.

Edited by Nightmare1, 19 October 2015 - 09:42 AM.

[Fang01]

If 25% or less of the company goes 50 while the rest can average 80...Maybe that minority should reconsider their mech choices.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Jman5, on 19 October 2015 - 07:14 AM, said:

My experience is that teams that wait for particularly slow assaults to group up before moving out almost always get clobbered unless the other team is equally sluggish. Not only is it an indicator of a bad assault pilot, but it gives the opponents time to get into position. Usually it goes like this...

Team: wait, wait, wait (taps foot impatiently)

3 minutes later...

Team: Ok we are all here now lets move out without any scouting because lights were "escorting"

Team Walks into firing line

Team dies

Direwolf: noob team!

I can't help but feel like some players expect faster mechs to be in two or even three places at once. They want lights to:
1. Scout
2. Escort
3. Wait for the assaults

You either cut lights/mediums loose and let them scout/attack ahead, or you play blind with the very real chance of getting cut down by a firing line.

But blob is king