112 replies to this topic

[Scandinavian Jawbreaker]

generalazure, on 01 October 2015 - 02:43 AM, said:

Since noone else has done it yet I blame the laser meta, those things need all their crit slots for heat sinks and end up with literally no other choice but to dump their spare tonnage into an oversized engine (which also provides more space for heat sinks, yay) =p

Dude, nascar was even stronger in the poptart era. At least in high elo. We just ran less laps cus the avg speed was around 70-80 on pretty much every mech. From those days the high elo tactic poured down to the underhive and now today it's a norm.

[Catra Lanis]

Tarogato, on 01 October 2015 - 03:07 AM, said:

I think Speed Tweak and Double-Basics should be removed entirely from the game. It helps Nascar proliferate, it makes the game feel more like a twitch shooter than a mech game, it makes many of the mechs' gaits look unnatural, and it's just not as immersive. Out with it.

But you'd still have the problem. Leave it on assaults and halve it for other classes maybe?

[generalazure]

ugrakarma, on 01 October 2015 - 03:09 AM, said:

Dude, nascar was even stronger in the poptart era. At least in high elo. We just ran less laps cus the avg speed was around 70-80 on pretty much every mech. From those days the high elo tactic poured down to the underhive and now today it's a norm.

In those days, on caustic, I usually got killed by gauss/ppc guys jumpsniping over the edge of the caldera or the crest of one of the outlying hills. And I hated it enough to stop playing for a while, so no idea how it evolved from there.

[jss78]

John1352, on 01 October 2015 - 12:13 AM, said:

I'd say part of the problem is that IF you support say, a dakka whale, and keep the enemies from out maneuvering or focusing it, the whale pilot gets ~5 kills and ~700 damage, and the supporting guys get mostly assists. If you use it as bait, let the enemies kill it while you shoot them, your earnings will be higher if you still win.

It would be interesting to have match pay based entirely on winning, it would encourage teamplay, but there would be rage from people who lose.

Good point there. I'm not convinced though that most people leave their assaults behind because they're being calculating about their earnings. I suspect more commonly they're just being dumb. Speaking as a mainly medium pilot, next to our face-wrecking assault is exactly where I want to be.

Take this as a probably-half-*ssed bit of Tier 3 wisdom, but IMO the biggest predictor of team performance is who best guards their heavy hitters

Stefka Kerensky, on 01 October 2015 - 12:14 AM, said:

Guys, what about removing speed tweak?

This would tuned down speed, 10%, and would give reasonable speed to mechs.

I really like this suggestion -- and especially, because it hits the quick mechs more than the slow mechs, as you say. So it'd work both as a wholesale speed nerf, and slightly close the speed gap between assaults and lights.

To me the the excessive speed/agility is among the bigger immersion issues in MWO. No idea if it's unintentional, or by design to cater to the generic FPS crowd.

Edited by jss78, 01 October 2015 - 03:39 AM.

[Chemie]

Madcap72, on 30 September 2015 - 09:18 PM, said:

My 360XL Shadowhawk thinks the speed meta existed before the clans.

but you had half the alpha of those clan mechs

[Widowmaker1981]

jss78, on 01 October 2015 - 03:37 AM, said:

I really like this suggestion -- and especially, because it hits the quick mechs more than the slow mechs, as you say. So it'd work both as a wholesale speed nerf, and slightly close the speed gap between assaults and lights.

To me the the excessive speed/agility is among the bigger immersion issues in MWO. No idea if it's unintentional, or by design to cater to the generic FPS crowd.

Personally, i find piloting assaults without double basics to be completely unbearable. I always GXP them. I DONT find piloting mediums and lights without double basics to be an issue agility wise (though they obviously improve). So I dont like that idea, because it would makes assaults permanently unbearable. But thats just me i guess.

[STEF_]

jss78, on 01 October 2015 - 03:37 AM, said:

No idea if it's unintentional, or by design to cater to the generic FPS crowd.

I think it's been an issue from the beginning trying to develop a mech simulation and a FPS in the same time, but PGI chose the second one, maybe because FPS crowd...is a crowd.
IMO, it's been a mistake, above all because fps fans have a lot and better fps out there.

[STEF_]

Widowmaker1981, on 01 October 2015 - 03:56 AM, said:

Personally, i find piloting assaults without double basics to be completely unbearable. I always GXP them. I DONT find piloting mediums and lights without double basics to be an issue agility wise (though they obviously improve). So I dont like that idea, because it would makes assaults permanently unbearable. But thats just me i guess.

I can agree with this, assaults aren't "the guilty" in the mwo speed issue.

[Ukos]

Like a lot of the posters have been stating it's not speed that Is the problem it's tactics.
I play both assault (kcrab) and high speed mediums and lights, to an extent yes the smaller (slower heavy mediums and heavies) should pack up and escort the assaults. In return the assaults should show a little awareness and agression by intelligently moving up and not just hiding in cover chucking lrms and sniper fire. (if you choose to be a turret don't expect mamy people to guard you).
As a fast mover I reconoitre and pick off stragglers / targets of opportunity.
If you choose to sit off away from support don't be surprised if a lighter mech comes along and papercuts you to death.
Dont expect a lighter mech to stand still in front of you and slug it out where you have the advantage.
Initial argument feels a little paper is fine nerf rock please.

(Edited for clarity) 13:20 01/10/15

Edited by Ukos, 01 October 2015 - 04:19 AM.

[Mawai]

1) I don't think speed is the issue. Mechs have always had a wide range of speeds in MWO from 150+ for lights to more like 48 to 64 for most assaults. A range of speeds is required to make the game more interesting.

2) Even if every mech moved the same speed you would still see the same issues. I believe that your complaint comes down to teams splitting up leaving the assaults separated and thus easier targets.

3) I think the reason for your comments is summed up in one sentence in your post

"Since the implentation of PSR or whatever you name it i have been noticing a huge increase of Assault lances getting annilhilated."

Think about this. The players have NOT changed. Their ability to play the game has not changed. The only thing that has changed is the folks you get placed with in a match and this has changed. PSR seems to have placed you in a lower tier playing with less skilled players than before. This happens because the PSR and match score emphasize damage done and number of games played in determining tier and thus the other players in the match. In some cases in the PUG queue (a Timberwolf pilot perhaps) ... they might not need much in the way of teamwork to get good damage and a decent match score. These folks don't lose much on a loss and gain quite a bit on a win ... so their trend is upward even if their contribution to teamwork is non-existant.

On the other hand, a pilot who has good aim, makes sure opponents die instead of being able to retreat and who is willing to sacrifice themselves leading a charge or push at the right time to ensure a win will tend to lose more on a loss and not gain as much on a win since they won't have done as much damage. They may win more often but since the match scores are lower they may well have a downward trend in PSR.

So folks who play less damaging mechs and win on teamwork drop in PSR while those who play maxed out meta mechs for maximum damage and could care less about teamwork ... rise. C'est la vie. PGI will have the stats which I hope they look at and then can determine exactly how broken PSR truly is.

[Tarogato]

Widowmaker1981, on 01 October 2015 - 03:56 AM, said:

Personally, i find piloting assaults without double basics to be completely unbearable. I always GXP them.

... But thats just me i guess.

Probably just you. Then again, I'm weird, too. I hardly notice the difference between Elited assaults and assaults with zero basics because they're all so gosh darn slow no matter what compared to what I'm used to (lights and mediums).

Trial Banshee on a fresh account with 15 games played, 0.88 WLR, but 2.00 KDR and ~500 damage average per match.



... and I'm typically a terrible assault pilot, so anybody who complains about unelited mechs can suck a bag of diсks. =P

(no offense intended, btw, don't shoot me. <3 )

Edited by Tarogato, 01 October 2015 - 04:36 AM.

[Fate 6]

It's because of the design of the new maps. There is so much obstruction and cover that the most effective way to survive is to keep moving. It's easier to flank than push head on.

Speed creep doesn't hurt the Dire though, unless you're a bad pilot

[Johnny Z]

Kristian Radoulov, on 30 September 2015 - 05:01 PM, said:

Speed isn't the issue, selfish players that are afraid of taking ANY enemy fire are.

I think the sim suffers because of excessive speed. If it was realistic and made the game look great then fine. But if it detracts from the sim and makes the game look bad then not fine. Simple.

A king Crab doing 90 would look stupid, a King Crab doing 50ish looks right. Same with the other mechs relative.

Also speed vrs firepower needs to be balanced better. For sure. Somehow. The only ideas I have seen is a larger increase in heat at max speed or maybe a reactor energy pool.

Its very possible one of these ideas will be added by the way.

Increases at certain speeds vrs mech weight to heat would solve alot of problems. Seems to be the best way. Would add to the sim also.

Edited by Johnny Z, 01 October 2015 - 04:51 AM.

[LookUpGaming]

Speed is life.

I just do not play slow mechs. The Solo queue is a deathtrap for slow mechs. You might be able to get away with playing with slow mechs as a team (maybe) if you have all 12 working together with coordinated loadouts revolving around slow heavy hitters. But in the solo queue? No chance. You will get speedier mediums and heavies that can get into positions where they are shooting your out of position slow mech from cover from most of your team.

Mechs move to try to catch up to the faster mechs to shoot them, leaving the slower mechs more and more isolated. As said above its the BESM.

Faster mechs can choose when to engage and disengage, they control the fight. The days of being able to run around in a 58kph mech and do well most of the time are over.

[Ex Atlas Overlord]

What I'm getting out of this as a new player is this:

If you came to this game expecting tactical, methodical, robot warfare, where positioning and foresight are highly important, uninstall.

If you came to this game expecting super fast gundam twitch shooting where nothing matters but how fast you are, enjoy.

That sucks....I came for the former.

Edited by The Atlas Overlord, 01 October 2015 - 05:07 AM.

[Screech]

I will admit that I really don't like playing assaults anymore in pugs. But this is a 100% community driven issue. The problem is not in the system but in the way people choose to play the system.

[TheCharlatan]

There are 2 different problems:
1- people being stupid and leaving their assaults behind because reasons.
2- teams trying to rush assaults on the get go. I.E.: if one team pushes the assault lance and kills it, and their assault lance either keeps pace or dosen't die, the team wins 99% of the time.

While (1) is unavoidable in PUGs (people will do silly things... i know i do), (2) is derived by a series of gameplay "features":

• fast lights/medium/heavies capable of going really fast and carrying weapon loads capable of killing any assault in short order, and often at long range. Clans are the main "villians" here, but some IS mechs can do this too.
  
• aggressive play being much more effective than difensive play (especially in PUGs).
  
• spawn points being far apart.

Basically, if you manage to push the enemy's assaults before they can push yours, you win.

Since creating a firing line to stop an enemy push is really hard in PUGs, just rolling on with the deathball is much more effective, and so a nascar is born.

(1) is avoidable by using VOIP and chat, but (2) requires the team to basically renounce being aggressive and losing the initiative...which is not a good idea.

The solutions to these problem might be:

• increase TTK (in any way you prefer: if you can't kill an assault fast enough, the tactic never works)
  
• make aggressive play less effectiveness... i'm not sure how. I'm not even sure why being aggressive is so effective in MWO... maybe some vet/tactician can explain exactly why.
  
• closer spawn points between lances... but random "central" spawn point.

Edited by TheCharlatan, 01 October 2015 - 05:26 AM.

[Hotthedd]

I haven't read all of the posts, so forgive me if this was already stated.

A simple fix to this would be heat penalties for running too hot. Those fast movers flanking assaults would have to make the choice of "fire everyting to kill the assault, but reduce my speed" (becoming more vulnerable to the return fire), or "keep my speed while trying to kill the slow assault with a thousand paper cuts" (but able to escape when/if the cavalry comes).

[Sarlic]

Mawai, on 01 October 2015 - 04:17 AM, said:

1) I don't think speed is the issue. Mechs have always had a wide range of speeds in MWO from 150+ for lights to more like 48 to 64 for most assaults. A range of speeds is required to make the game more interesting.

2) Even if every mech moved the same speed you would still see the same issues. I believe that your complaint comes down to teams splitting up leaving the assaults separated and thus easier targets.

3) I think the reason for your comments is summed up in one sentence in your post

"Since the implentation of PSR or whatever you name it i have been noticing a huge increase of Assault lances getting annilhilated."

Think about this. The players have NOT changed. Their ability to play the game has not changed. The only thing that has changed is the folks you get placed with in a match and this has changed. PSR seems to have placed you in a lower tier playing with less skilled players than before. This happens because the PSR and match score emphasize damage done and number of games played in determining tier and thus the other players in the match. In some cases in the PUG queue (a Timberwolf pilot perhaps) ... they might not need much in the way of teamwork to get good damage and a decent match score. These folks don't lose much on a loss and gain quite a bit on a win ... so their trend is upward even if their contribution to teamwork is non-existant.

On the other hand, a pilot who has good aim, makes sure opponents die instead of being able to retreat and who is willing to sacrifice themselves leading a charge or push at the right time to ensure a win will tend to lose more on a loss and not gain as much on a win since they won't have done as much damage. They may win more often but since the match scores are lower they may well have a downward trend in PSR.

So folks who play less damaging mechs and win on teamwork drop in PSR while those who play maxed out meta mechs for maximum damage and could care less about teamwork ... rise. C'est la vie. PGI will have the stats which I hope they look at and then can determine exactly how broken PSR truly is.

It's not only skill based.

I see this constant happening in my Tier (1) (I dont like talking about tiers, but as you pointed it out) Which T1 is flawed in my opinion. That whole PSR is just B.S. to me.. It's the same derping around as before. In that regard it didnt change much.

I see maps one of the main problems, but as other have pointed out the players are a problem as well. Pressing W too deep causes a NASCAR. But so are the pilots in the Assault wasting the time of a heavies and medium in the first crucial minute(s) when standing still at the very beginning of a match.

But since the EBJ got for sale for cbills you could tell a huge increase of a heavy speed lance. Not suprising. But it works.

Even if you are considering yourself as good pilot (it's like drivers from a car when everybody thinks they're good) is that when you get rolled because of this NASCAR you still lose because and can't do any good damage to your liking* (*Everyone have their own damage liking)

I really think this is just a base problem which is growing just like balance. Players are just a part of it. But that's how i see things.

Edited by Sarlic, 01 October 2015 - 05:45 AM.

[TheCharlatan]

BTW... i wish i had your problem.
Today i see a lot of super timid teams with LRM assaults and everybody just falls back when a kit fox shoots them with 3 ERMLs at 600 m...