112 replies to this topic

[TheStrider]

Type "Form up on the assaults" at the start of a match.

You will see a marked increase in the number of games where the Assaults survive the first push.

[Sarlic]

TheCharlatan, on 01 October 2015 - 05:46 AM, said:

BTW... i wish i had your problem.
Today i see a lot of super timid teams with LRM assaults and everybody just falls back when a kit fox shoots them with 3 ERMLs at 600 m...

Really cant blame people of sinking tiers. The amount of gauss/laser is rediculous though. Same names, same stuff and then talk big after hitting a 1000.

*rolls eyes*

I like a LRM 15 on my Atlas though

Edited by Sarlic, 01 October 2015 - 05:55 AM.

[Dauntless Blint]

They could consider some diametric where the slower your max speed is, the more structure points you get,or some expendable one time speed boost that causes heat?


-In regards to solo Que if you struggle...
I want to add my five cents and suggest to only use Assaults that can "Suppress" the enemy IF your having problems.Understand in solo that most of the time the rest of the team consider you cover and or a distraction when they make a mistake.You have to premeditate your actions,anticipate your teams actions more than your own.Try and be an ambush predator where superior Armour and firepower in medium to close range can cause panic.Use a direct fire assault because an assault mech that can't bully is toast.Always carry a UAV and artillary to 1)let the team know your in trouble,and 2) buy yourself some valuable seconds,to decide death or glory and maybe even stall an enemy push just in time to face off against the rest of your team as they realize the error of their ways and come to the rescue.
Edit:
I thought I'd just add for a good flanking action to be most successful first you have to establish a front then try and combine your bullying power to the biggest threat in the enemy line front on or from the side as the flanker. Nascar is at best tunnel vision and at worst a selfish part of the game you can't do anything about after asking for support. hit reverse and play tail end charlie open up with everything as you get boned by the enemy team,drop UAV and artillery and hope for the stall or cover or the team to perceive whats happening.The enemy nascar enthusiasts are in tunnel vision mode too and may be your only edge as they can sometimes over commit...

Edited by CorditeJunkie, 01 October 2015 - 06:35 AM.

[Ukos]

A lot of the ideas being mooted around increased ttk as the solution would just lead to a meta shift in armour and weight.
Lack of intelligent maneuvering is one of the problems we have, as forting up and assuming defensive positions is surrendering the initiative.
The map design and player habits come into play here, watch the behaviour of the teams on map as play unfolds you will have one or two scouts or harasser move out and get creamed by the defense as no one moves to support while decrying the lack of locks or drones.
And then everyone goes to their favourite spots on the map and plays hide and seek until they have over whelming advantage in numbers.
New forest colony - nearly every game I have seen people fight in the inlet near the ship hardly anyone out flanks.
Frozen city everyone starts the initial fight chucking lrms over cowards ridge and then transition into the city.
Caustic we circle the Caldera
River city - the brawl still ends up around the citadel.

Playing assaults takes skill and a certain 'bloody minded' approach not timidity dressed up behind excuses, lrm buckets can advance and fire, gauss and dakka boats can fire on the move.

Living fast needs an equal amount of skill but is a different knife edge altogether we take the same risk as assaults if yoy misjudge an advance or a piece of cover you may have the speed to reposition but are more likely to be killed before you have the chance to do -opposite side of same issue.

PGI maps are good compromise just needs some tweaking - maybe speed penalties for terrain types like we used to have in t top

Edited by Ukos, 01 October 2015 - 11:31 AM.

[Mystere]

jss78, on 01 October 2015 - 03:37 AM, said:

I really like this suggestion -- and especially, because it hits the quick mechs more than the slow mechs, as you say. So it'd work both as a wholesale speed nerf, and slightly close the speed gap between assaults and lights.

You've got to be kidding. Lights are already the red-headed stepchildren of MWO, and you want them to be handicapped even more?

Edited by Mystere, 01 October 2015 - 06:25 AM.

[MechWarrior5152251]

Big Engine Stomp would lose every time if the slower team stayed together. The slower team has more firepower than the faster team unless they are all dirty Clanbabies....

[Sarlic]

Ukos, on 01 October 2015 - 04:14 AM, said:

Like a lot of the posters have been stating it's not speed that Is the problem it's tactics.
I play both assault (kcrab) and high speed mediums and lights, to an extent yes the smaller (slower heavy mediums and heavies) should pack up and escort the assaults. In return the assaults should show a little awareness and agression by intelligently moving up and not just hiding in cover chucking lrms and sniper fire. (if you choose to be a turret don't expect mamy people to guard you).
As a fast mover I reconoitre and pick off stragglers / targets of opportunity.
If you choose to sit off away from support don't be surprised if a lighter mech comes along and papercuts you to death.
Dont expect a lighter mech to stand still in front of you and slug it out where you have the advantage.
Initial argument feels a little paper is fine nerf rock please.

Perhaps it's also a good idea to make players more aware and understand that some actions/decisions they make have consequenes. It's not only the Assault pilot!.
Instead of nerfing things you could try to stir things up a little by adding markers and perhaps a area of effect bonuses.

We could debate all about speed nerf this and that. It may be the first solution but i am seeking more alternative. More like team objectives.

The quality of our tools needs to go up as well. Our current tools is terrible, just like the reward system. Nothing is clear at all.

It's still a borked reward system. When lance bonuses got introduced everyone seemd to stay with the lance in the very beginning. Now not so much, you see it ocasionally popping it up in your screen as a reward but its not enough!

Just a quick idea i have thrown together and more side bonuses could be thrown in as well. Like NARC bonuses (Instead of having the current quick messages) you could make the players more aware of how what their role should be.



May sound a bit funky; but you get the idea.. i know it's not the best idea. .it's about boosting team peformance. Lights would have different bonuses etc.

Its about having a more visual appereance. I think it would help atleast a little on how-to teamwork regards toning down speed by just going round the map? (Apart from deathballing)

Edited by Sarlic, 01 October 2015 - 06:42 AM.

[Dauntless Blint]

Johnny Z, on 01 October 2015 - 04:38 AM, said:

I think the sim suffers because of excessive speed. If it was realistic and made the game look great then fine. But if it detracts from the sim and makes the game look bad then not fine. Simple.

A king Crab doing 90 would look stupid, a King Crab doing 50ish looks right. Same with the other mechs relative.

Also speed vrs firepower needs to be balanced better. For sure. Somehow. The only ideas I have seen is a larger increase in heat at max speed or maybe a reactor energy pool.

Its very possible one of these ideas will be added by the way.

Increases at certain speeds vrs mech weight to heat would solve alot of problems. Seems to be the best way. Would add to the sim also.

Love this idea

[GernMiester]

Sarlic, on 30 September 2015 - 01:16 PM, said:

What can i say? Don't you believe me?

Take a quick glimp of your 10 last solo matches and you tell me how much you did go round the map?

I am sure everyone will come up with atleast one time.

Quick summary: In my opinion this game is turning on speed. The ACH was one of the few mechs to break through the speed barrier. In my opinion it's still one of the most imbalanced mechs ingame prior balance. But opinions may disagree. But hey i am just telling how i think about this mech. It's not only the ACH you know. But it's a prime example of a expanding problem.

The reason that i am bringing this up is i am noticing i even fall more and more behind with the Atlas. And i am not the only Assault. Even some Heavies fall out of the boat. The Direwolf for example with a lower clocked travel speed is sharing the same problem. Other Assaults are biting the dust soon as well if they dont put bigger engines in their mechs just to catch up.

Since the implentation of PSR or whatever you name it i have been noticing a huge increase of Assault lances getting annilhilated. Specifically talking about the solo q. Some player even disconnect when they see a NASCAR is going on. I can't blame them though. Often you have to cut alot of corners, lose valueable armor or even chunks of your HP to catch up. Positioning is the key. So is a fireline. But good luck trying to create a counter fireline witth a 12 random.

In group que this is less of a problem. Because they know how to support the Assaults.
Due all that fine powercreeping you see the speed differences can get up to 30 km/h because of all these shiny IS/Clan toys. Not very surpising (and most people do know this) that a good Heavy practically beats a Assault in both mobility and firepower* (*certain cases, certain circumstances)

PGI is running after the facts. They are making the maps bigger and the spawnpoints wider across each map. A bigger map has pro's but also con's. You still see the very same behaviour of NASCAR on the New River City and even Forest Colony. PUGs tend to get a targer fix and go for empty space and try to 'flank' away. Most of the map gets unused or not even touched.

The new maps are not simply big enough and the spawn locations are borked.
You decide if i am talking the truth or not.

Am i spewing like a drunk man talking gibberish? I personally don't think so. Balance is however a other subject which i wont discuss here. I personally think thats even in a worse state. (high alpha mentality, still on-going bad weaponvalues, 'meta')

Some mechs are designed to go fast. Sure we can discuss endless about the fact that these mechs are designed to work on speed. But we still need to deal with this underlying problem. Some mechs are getting more and more in trouble just because of the speed alone. The map is one problem, but so is the general gameplay.

The game has been seriously screwed terms of gameplay. Everything looks like speedy gonzales.

Atleast in my personal opinion i don't like the way we're heading. And frankly it gets worse with more mech packs coming down the road.

So what are your personal thoughts about the above? And how do you feel about the current speed?

Thanks for reading.

Speed is fine. its another L2P situation. If you go slow and you stop before you regroup you have no clue. The fast light catching up to that lone assault and killing it happens. I did it in my Jenners many times.

I never had any issues keeping up in my 54kph Stalker unless the fools start to play nascar and that's not that common in the tier I have been shoved into. When it does happen I speak up and more often then not it stops and the enemies fast mechs run right into our deathball.

Teams that leave the assaults or slow heavies behind have little to do with how fast a mech is, it has 100% to do with poor teamwork, no leadership, poor tactics, lack of situational awareness, and just plain mouth breathing derp..

[MechWarrior5152251]

Fate 6, on 01 October 2015 - 04:36 AM, said:

It's because of the design of the new maps. There is so much obstruction and cover that the most effective way to survive is to keep moving. It's easier to flank than push head on.

Speed creep doesn't hurt the Dire though, unless you're a bad pilot

Speed hurts good dire pilots too. I do much more in a SCR than I do in a Dire in most games. Dire Whales cannot dodge shots nor back into cover before every mech who has spotted them gets a chance to shoot.

[Ghogiel]

I saw a thread on reddit recently that had someone saying "cutting the circle" was some new meta to nascar. I lol'd.

[Almond Brown]

Sarlic, on 30 September 2015 - 01:34 PM, said:

I pointed out in other threads that's players are also a part of the problem. (Forgot to mention that in my first post. Oh the irony, though i pasted it)

The quality of our tools needs to go up. For example VOIP is still terrible. We have no basic shouts (or you name it) or anything at all to improve our general team communication.

I very agree with your point though. But its not only the players.

Given two Teams with equal Mech weight distribution and player quality. One Team leaves their Slow (Assaults, bloated Heavies) behind and the other does not.

How in frack is that somehow the Games problem? VOIP doe not suck that bad... and CHAT does work if your team is literate...

Edited by Almond Brown, 01 October 2015 - 07:47 AM.

[STEF_]

Ukos, on 01 October 2015 - 04:14 AM, said:

Like a lot of the posters have been stating it's not speed that Is the problem it's tactics.

Not so agree, here.

Players choose speed because it's far easier to move and focus fire vs designated target, such as the slow dire, or the skilled player that must die.
The means dictate the tactic.
As you can see above, I don't like speed levels in mwo (for reasons, mainly because I would like to feel the tons, huge battlemechs), BUT I always use the max speed possible in game.

[Johnny Z]

Hotthedd, on 01 October 2015 - 05:33 AM, said:

I haven't read all of the posts, so forgive me if this was already stated.

A simple fix to this would be heat penalties for running too hot. Those fast movers flanking assaults would have to make the choice of "fire everyting to kill the assault, but reduce my speed" (becoming more vulnerable to the return fire), or "keep my speed while trying to kill the slow assault with a thousand paper cuts" (but able to escape when/if the cavalry comes).

Dude this is it. Im glad I didnt miss this and if the guys making this game havnt seen it, or thought of it yet, they should.

Maybe there is something not obvious with this idea, but wow it looks good.

This could work with the engine balancing also. Improve the sim. Maybe if more heat is added for top speeds it could limit alphas. Would help the small lights with to many heat sinks and not enough firepower also.

Edited by Johnny Z, 01 October 2015 - 08:32 AM.

[MechWarrior5152251]

No way to balance for stupidity.... If your team splits up you lose...

[Sadist Cain]

Sarlic, on 30 September 2015 - 01:16 PM, said:

What can i say? Don't you believe me?

Take a quick glimp of your 10 last solo matches and you tell me how much you did go round the map?

I am sure everyone will come up with atleast one time.

Quick summary: In my opinion this game is turning on speed. The ACH was one of the few mechs to break through the speed barrier. In my opinion it's still one of the most imbalanced mechs ingame prior balance. But opinions may disagree. But hey i am just telling how i think about this mech. It's not only the ACH you know. But it's a prime example of a expanding problem.

The reason that i am bringing this up is i am noticing i even fall more and more behind with the Atlas. And i am not the only Assault. Even some Heavies fall out of the boat. The Direwolf for example with a lower clocked travel speed is sharing the same problem. Other Assaults are biting the dust soon as well if they dont put bigger engines in their mechs just to catch up.

Since the implentation of PSR or whatever you name it i have been noticing a huge increase of Assault lances getting annilhilated. Specifically talking about the solo q. Some player even disconnect when they see a NASCAR is going on. I can't blame them though. Often you have to cut alot of corners, lose valueable armor or even chunks of your HP to catch up. Positioning is the key. So is a fireline. But good luck trying to create a counter fireline witth a 12 random.

In group que this is less of a problem. Because they know how to support the Assaults.
Due all that fine powercreeping you see the speed differences can get up to 30 km/h because of all these shiny IS/Clan toys. Not very surpising (and most people do know this) that a good Heavy practically beats a Assault in both mobility and firepower* (*certain cases, certain circumstances)

PGI is running after the facts. They are making the maps bigger and the spawnpoints wider across each map. A bigger map has pro's but also con's. You still see the very same behaviour of NASCAR on the New River City and even Forest Colony. PUGs tend to get a targer fix and go for empty space and try to 'flank' away. Most of the map gets unused or not even touched.

The new maps are not simply big enough and the spawn locations are borked.
You decide if i am talking the truth or not.

Am i spewing like a drunk man talking gibberish? I personally don't think so. Balance is however a other subject which i wont discuss here. I personally think thats even in a worse state. (high alpha mentality, still on-going bad weaponvalues, 'meta')

Some mechs are designed to go fast. Sure we can discuss endless about the fact that these mechs are designed to work on speed. But we still need to deal with this underlying problem. Some mechs are getting more and more in trouble just because of the speed alone. The map is one problem, but so is the general gameplay.

The game has been seriously screwed terms of gameplay. Everything looks like speedy gonzales.

Atleast in my personal opinion i don't like the way we're heading. And frankly it gets worse with more mech packs coming down the road.

So what are your personal thoughts about the above? And how do you feel about the current speed?

Thanks for reading.

Speed is definitely a big factor, lack of lance based objectives I believe also plays a big part.

As it stands you get one blob chasing another blob in omst gamemodes ergo, NASCAR!!!!

The only time this may not happen is in conquest which always offers the best last moment battles against the odds. Usually between a desperate light protecting the cap points vs a lance of beat up heavys.

Although speed exacerbates the problem I don't think it's the cause, I find the cause to be the fact the game modes don't force teams to fragment themselves in order to "PTFO"
The only option tends to be group up and outflank/don't get flanked which results in NASCAR.

Now if each different lance had an objective to complete then it would be a different story...

"Objective" meaning not standing in a laser grid capping a flag :/

Would be nice to see a ticket based gamemode with respawns.

[Mike McSullivan]

MechWarrior5152251, on 19 October 2015 - 03:26 AM, said:

No way to balance for stupidity.... If your team splits up you lose...

true words, true words

i experienced 2 kinds of Nascar
1) the aggressive one, including "having an eye" on the own assaults. this could work, if the fast players are able to push the enemy backwards into the range of their own assaults, so that you could possibly crush the enemy in between. to be honest:its very rare.
2) the "scared bunny": the people dont nascar for a better position, but out of fear to avoid enemyfire. this leads nearly everytime to the last/slowest ones to be eaten alive and finally a loss.

My idea would be that the 4 weightclasses would have different colours. like, lightblue for (gues what) lights, up to dark blue for the assaults. (the other team is all in normal red). This would help a bit to see where the Assaults are (lesser need of communication).

Edited by Mike McSullivan, 19 October 2015 - 03:44 AM.

[Speedy Plysitkos]

Mike McSullivan, on 19 October 2015 - 03:43 AM, said:

My idea would be that the 4 weightclasses would have different colours. like, lightblue for (gues what) lights, up to dark blue for the assaults. (the other team is all in normal red). This would help a bit to see where the Assaults are (lesser need of communication).

light - blue arrows
medium - green arrows
heavy - purple arrows
assaults - red arrows

like that.

[Sir Wulfrick]

"Speed is life. Alpha is life insurance."

80% of what's wrong with MWO encapsulated in one neat sentence.

Playing some of my assault mechs in tier 1/2 matches is about as much fun as taking a hammer and breaking my own fingers.

[Myke Pantera]

PaeuxP22, on 30 September 2015 - 01:59 PM, said:

For the rest of us. The Pug queue is all about shooting then not getting shot back at. With solos it takes a certain type of player to draw a line and defend it to the death. Most will withdraw in the face of fire and the faster you go the quicker you can withdraw and fire again yourself.

In group it's less of an issue as you can stand and know that the line will stand with you.

I second that.

SoloQ is about finding beneficial places where you deal more damage than you receive. Key to this is speed.

I also believe that part of the problem is the Direwolf itself. I never really understood the problem people have with the 6xUAC5 Direwolf (while piloting lights and mediums), but once i had to face one in a slow Orion (trial) I knew exactly what the problem was. You hide or you die. I have never played an assault below 75kph ever again, and run my heavies at 80kph+.