46 replies to this topic

[Lord Auriel]

EM0ntY, on 08 October 2015 - 05:21 AM, said:

Hey Ugra,

"well played", I really enjoyed the reading. It's a very good summary of the development within mwo in the last months. So, after coming to the conclusion, that a the current level the clan lasers (LPL + ER ML) are the best weapon in the moment, I would like to add anther one important point (wink@nascar etc.). Here is a quote from "Play to win" (http://www.sirlin.ne...ide-and-conquer) from Sun Tzu:




Why I am telling this? Imagine everything is balanced, than, the team that is moving/positioning/analysing the opponent better, that team should win most of the time. It comes simply down to numbers, pure fire power and piloting/aiming skill. I think you can see it quite good in the MRBC matches. I like to quote at this point your AC5 spam decks: not common but very effecitve . So, back to the present, I think, whenever people discuss about weapons, equipment, chassis level, match maker, psr, p2w etc. they should also keep in mind, that the result of the match is also depending on the above mentioned quote from Sun Tzu. It's a simple rule of nature.

O7

EM0ntY

play meta or die... I dropped in a commando recently and some guy said in chat "F**k this, we're down one, thx tard"

I'm not a master of words but yes, OP, you are one eloquent person. Also, I think if the TTk was higher in general or at least if assaults were more viable than they are right now (a joke), battles would slow down and flanking would become more viable again.. right now it's deathball vs deathball, and I freaking hate it, but I just can't quite grasp what is causing this nascar-blob meta. I'm just not sure. all I know is that MWO in general was WAY better before the 1st clan wave. And I'm not talking about cosmetics, I'm talking about gameplay.

[J0anna]

So much here that is wrong, I'm glad PGI doesn't read these.

You can't try to look at IS weapon "A" and balance it against Clan weapon "A". That simply doesn't work because the mechs aren't the same. My cicada easily obtains 15.5 tons of weapon space, the Ice ferret (weighing 5 tons more) struggles to get 9.5 tons. My Victor with a standard 300 engine has 36 tons available for weapons and heat sinks, while my Gargoyle has 20 tons (with 6 heat sinks, so 26 tons for weapons and heat sinks). My cataphract with a standard 275 has 29.5 tons available for weapons and heatsinks (with 2xJJ's installed) my summoner has 21 tons (with 4 heat sinks). The fact that an IS SRM 6 weighs 1.5 tons more than a clan SRM 6 is insignificant as it does not prohibit those mechs for taking it.

We need to balance mechs, not weapons.

Also we need to decide what we are balancing for. Are we balancing mechs for solo drops, group drops or CW? Because it makes a difference. Setups that are very effective in CW are only moderately effective in the others, the same applies for group and solo setups. If you believe anyone can balance mechs so that they are equal in all three, then I have a bridge for you. Mechs that are well balanced in solo que, might easily wind up op in CW. I would like to see PGI take a stand here and state what balance they are trying to achieve, though it looks like CW is what they are shooting for.

The TTK argument, what TTK are you talking about? Are you talking about 12 v 12 or 1 v 1. Because 1 v 1 TTK is fine. For 12 v 12, what is an acceptable TTK? That certainly depends on the person. I do not subscribe to the belief that a single mech standing there trading shots with 6 others has an unacceptably short TTK. He/she should die nearly instantly, 6 mechs applying even 30 points of damage each will instantly core out any mech. So that mech (even an atlas) should die in one volley. None the less, this can be directly traced back to the decision to allow heat sinks to increase heat cap. If we limit the heat cap to 30, like every other MechWarrior game (and BT itself) you would see a massive increase in TTK, a complete change in the meta (as heat becomes much more important, as it always was supposed to be).

The "meta" argument. You can't stop meta, something will always be meta. Lasers aren't pinpoint front loaded damage, people need to get over that. Want to see lasers drop from use, go back to lower heat, 2000 m/s (ER)PPC's and 3x range, faster flight AC's and bingo they are back. Or go back to the SRM's that have overlapping damage and/or the higher damages/speed LRM's. Doesn't matter, something will always be a better choice. The best nerf to lasers is to go to the 30 heat cap (hell then you could lower the laser heat back to it's original values (for both clan and IS) and remove ghost heat and allow double heatsinks to be true doubles.

Of all the things on the PTS, I would like to test a set 30 heat cap - lets see how that changes the game.

[EM0ntY]

Lord Auriel, on 08 October 2015 - 05:50 AM, said:

right now it's deathball vs deathball, and I freaking hate it, but I just can't quite grasp what is causing this nascar-blob meta.

I am sure, there are lot of people who can explain it in a better way than me, but I think it's simply playing tag. When you consider that at least one third of the team is slower then the other two thirds, so the team, that is catching faster the other slowest one is set up for deathball and see above, wins. That's my humble opinion... But, I don't want to capture the thread for tactic discussions. The title is about balance.

The question, if the mechs or the weapons should be balanced, I would say doesn't matter. Regarding the lore, mechs were never balanced (so my memories...but its very long ago...). So, whichever direction PGI like to go, they'll do it (unfortunately) without hearing the community (see the BV ideas from Paul)...

[Scandinavian Jawbreaker]

After reading the reply I'm really not sure who you're replying to, but I assume it's my OP.

Moenrg, on 08 October 2015 - 07:29 AM, said:

So much here that is wrong, I'm glad PGI doesn't read these.

You can't try to look at IS weapon "A" and balance it against Clan weapon "A". That simply doesn't work because the mechs aren't the same. My cicada easily obtains 15.5 tons of weapon space, the Ice ferret (weighing 5 tons more) struggles to get 9.5 tons. My Victor with a standard 300 engine has 36 tons available for weapons and heat sinks, while my Gargoyle has 20 tons (with 6 heat sinks, so 26 tons for weapons and heat sinks). My cataphract with a standard 275 has 29.5 tons available for weapons and heatsinks (with 2xJJ's installed) my summoner has 21 tons (with 4 heat sinks). The fact that an IS SRM 6 weighs 1.5 tons more than a clan SRM 6 is insignificant as it does not prohibit those mechs for taking it.

We need to balance mechs, not weapons.

I think it is very important to balance the weapons. Especially range. In high tier matches depending on the map you can pretty much close out IS SRMs and Medium Lasers because the fight is fought at 400-600 meter range. Even if you rush the enemy (that can move themselves to a position that is hard to move in to) you will get couple of dead mechs due to high alphas and the time to close. When you actually get to range you don't really have the DPS to take down a mech properly. The huge tonnage difference in Clan vs. IS weapons is a problem because Clan XL and 7 slot endo/ferro already gives clan mechs a huge advantage.

In the end you really can't balance mechs, some are trash forever and some are extremely good. If you quirk something it becomes good by quirks that affect weapons and thus the whole weapon balance should be looked at in my opinion. TDR, Huginn, Wolverine etc would be useless without their quirks mostly because the available tonnage vs weapon damage is way off.

Quote

Also we need to decide what we are balancing for. Are we balancing mechs for solo drops, group drops or CW? Because it makes a difference. Setups that are very effective in CW are only moderately effective in the others, the same applies for group and solo setups. If you believe anyone can balance mechs so that they are equal in all three, then I have a bridge for you. Mechs that are well balanced in solo que, might easily wind up op in CW. I would like to see PGI take a stand here and state what balance they are trying to achieve, though it looks like CW is what they are shooting for.

I really don't see any difference between solo, group or CW drops when it comes to weapon balance. CW seems to focus more to long range and pugs to closer range. Different playstyles - and that's all I'm asking for balance. Make different playstyles more viable. Right now you don't see brawlers in CW or in public queue except if they are quirked.

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The TTK argument, what TTK are you talking about?

I only said that if PGI is ok with the TTK we have now (I got no problem with it) then brawling (especially SRMs) should be buffed generally to the level it can fight high alpha / laser dps so it is worth taking a risk to close in.

Quote

The "meta" argument. You can't stop meta, something will always be meta. Lasers aren't pinpoint front loaded damage, people need to get over that. Want to see lasers drop from use, go back to lower heat, 2000 m/s (ER)PPC's and 3x range, faster flight AC's and bingo they are back. Or go back to the SRM's that have overlapping damage and/or the higher damages/speed LRM's. Doesn't matter, something will always be a better choice. The best nerf to lasers is to go to the 30 heat cap (hell then you could lower the laser heat back to it's original values (for both clan and IS) and remove ghost heat and allow double heatsinks to be true doubles.

I wasn't arguing against meta at all. I'm totally cool with meta and I understand there will be a meta always. I want different playstyles to be brought closer to the effectiveness current laser vomiting has. Right now they are not. I play meta all the time and abuse the heck out mistakes PGI makes in weapon balance.

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Of all the things on the PTS, I would like to test a set 30 heat cap - lets see how that changes the game.

Sure, why not.

[J0anna]

ugrakarma, on 08 October 2015 - 08:43 AM, said:

In the end you really can't balance mechs, some are trash forever and some are extremely good. If you quirk something it becomes good by quirks that affect weapons and thus the whole weapon balance should be looked at in my opinion. TDR, Huginn, Wolverine etc would be useless without their quirks mostly because the available tonnage vs weapon damage is way off.

And yet you have to, or you will only have a few "acceptable" mechs and many more "subpar" mechs. If you balance weapons alone, then the mechs that carry the most, "best" weapons will always be best....

ugrakarma, on 08 October 2015 - 08:43 AM, said:

I really don't see any difference between solo, group or CW drops when it comes to weapon balance. CW seems to focus more to long range and pugs to closer range. Different playstyles - and that's all I'm asking for balance. Make different playstyles more viable. Right now you don't see brawlers in CW or in public queue except if they are quirked.

I do, I run much hotter mechs in group que than solo que, as I know I will always have teammates near me and it's much easier to pull back when damaged/overheated. In CW, you would primarily balance lights, mediums and heavies as assaults are often excluded based on weight and/or the need to move. In solo setups, I tend to bring more ammo as I often have to rely more heavily on myself. Also I run mechs in the solo que I would never bring into the group que (or CW), since I run them for fun. Some people probably don't like that, but I look at the solo que as the place to have fun and try out builds, the group (and cw) ques are places to win. It's why sites like 'metamechs' list different setups for group/solo and CW ques.

[Y E O N N E]

Moenrg, on 08 October 2015 - 07:29 AM, said:

So much here that is wrong, I'm glad PGI doesn't read these.

You can't try to look at IS weapon "A" and balance it against Clan weapon "A". That simply doesn't work because the mechs aren't the same.

You do realize that you also can't look at IS 'Mech "A" and balance it against Clan 'Mech "A" because the equipment isn't the same, either, right? Hell, you can't even balance IS 'Mech "A" with IS 'Mech "B" for the exact same reason, though less dramatic in magnitude.

You have to start somewhere. The best thing to do would be to unlock Clan weaponry on all 'Mechs on the PTS so they can figure out where every chassis is weak and make adjustments accordingly. Then they can go back and balance the IS gear to be equal with Clan gear in utility.