178 replies to this topic

[pwnface]

Reno, I dislike your ideas and implementing cross-weapon type ghost heat is a terrible idea. Sorry!

Ghost heat has always been a band-aid solution. In fact, where PPCs currently stand I don't think they should even have ghost heat. People were having complains about 4xPPC stalkers being too OP with their 40 pinpoint damage only costing 32 heat. We now have clan mechs and quirked IS mechs that can do much larger alpha strikes. PPC heat has also increased from 8 to 10 making a 4xPPC alpha 40 heat. I hardly think this is out of balance in the current state of the game.

[wanderer]

Quote

Youll be forcing people to use dual gauss and nothing else.

Massive damage per hit, immense range, no heat. It's amazing that this thing doesn't have a 7.25 or so recharge cycle (basically 8 w/chargeup time) instead of it's current stats.

[pwnface]

wanderer, on 07 October 2015 - 11:30 AM, said:

Massive damage per hit, immense range, no heat. It's amazing that this thing doesn't have a 7.25 or so recharge cycle (basically 8 w/chargeup time) instead of it's current stats.

Nobody would use it if that were the case.

[Mcgral18]

pwnface, on 07 October 2015 - 11:42 AM, said:

Nobody would use it if that were the case.

At 7s total? There'd still be plenty in use.

It's already at ~5s, depending where you shoot during charge.


It's the longest range weapon in the game that brawls just fine. Not optimally, but not really at a disadvantage when things die in 2-3 alphas.

[pwnface]

Mcgral18, on 07 October 2015 - 12:18 PM, said:

At 7s total? There'd still be plenty in use.

It's already at ~5s, depending where you shoot during charge.


It's the longest range weapon in the game that brawls just fine. Not optimally, but not really at a disadvantage when things die in 2-3 alphas.

The current recycle time is 4 seconds. The post I responded to wants to bring the recycle time up to 7.25 seconds. If you include charge time this comes out to 4.75 vs 8 seconds.

As a DPS comparison this is effectively 3.15dps vs 1.875dps when shooting as quickly as possible. I get that Gauss isn't a DPS weapon but 1.875dps for a 15ton 7crit weapon is abysmally low. A weapon that can shoot once every 8 seconds won't "brawl fine", at 4.75 seconds it is serviceable if you don't have other options.

Edited by pwnface, 07 October 2015 - 01:10 PM.

[Mcgral18]

pwnface, on 07 October 2015 - 01:09 PM, said:

The current recycle time is 4 seconds. The post I responded to wants to bring the recycle time up to 7.25 seconds. If you include charge time this comes out to 4.75 vs 8 seconds.

As a DPS comparison this is effectively 3.15dps vs 1.875dps when shooting as quickly as possible. I get that Gauss isn't a DPS weapon but 1.875dps for a 15ton 7crit weapon is abysmally low. A weapon that can shoot once every 8 seconds won't "brawl fine", at 4.75 seconds it is serviceable if you don't have other options.

Exactly, that's the point.


Long range weapons shouldn't be able to hold a candle to Brawling weapons. That is generally the opposite in MWO. They arguably brawl better (in the case of the Gauss) because of precision damage.


The SRM6 is at 4s
The Gauss is at 4s+0.75

At 2.5 damage missiles, both would deal 15 damage. The Gauss would still be far superior, because 2.5 damage chunks aren't very effective. Costs tonnage, but no heat is an added bonus. It has the added benefit of being one of the best Crit weapons in the game as well. A 42% chance to destroy any item (sub AC20, only 17-20%, same as the cockpit) in the game as soon as it touches Structure (doesn't even need to deal 1 damage) because of the FLD advantage.


I'm not against just buffing the SRMs, though. I generally argue against powecreep, but this one won't change anything in the grand scheme of things. Other items would still brawl considerably better, but SRMs wouldn't be in as bad a place.

[Gas Guzzler]

Mcgral18, on 07 October 2015 - 01:25 PM, said:

Exactly, that's the point.


Long range weapons shouldn't be able to hold a candle to Brawling weapons. That is generally the opposite in MWO. They arguably brawl better (in the case of the Gauss) because of precision damage.


The SRM6 is at 4s
The Gauss is at 4s+0.75

At 2.5 damage missiles, both would deal 15 damage. The Gauss would still be far superior, because 2.5 damage chunks aren't very effective. Costs tonnage, but no heat is an added bonus. It has the added benefit of being one of the best Crit weapons in the game as well. A 42% chance to destroy any item (sub AC20, only 17-20%, same as the cockpit) in the game as soon as it touches Structure (doesn't even need to deal 1 damage) because of the FLD advantage.

Well, for the weight of a Gauss Rifle and 3 tons of ammo, you can equip 3 SRM6 +Artemis, 3-4 tons of ammo and a couple DHS. Obviously there is still more heat, but all of a sudden you are throwing a lot more damage around, even if it is spread to a couple components.

Don't get me wrong, I support damage and missile spread buffs to SRMs, I'm just not sure about comparing a single SRM 6 to a Gauss rifle.

[Mcgral18]

Gas Guzzler, on 07 October 2015 - 01:31 PM, said:

Well, for the weight of a Gauss Rifle and 3 tons of ammo, you can equip 3 SRM6 +Artemis, 3-4 tons of ammo and a couple DHS. Obviously there is still more heat, but all of a sudden you are throwing a lot more damage around, even if it is spread to a couple components.

Don't get me wrong, I support damage and missile spread buffs to SRMs, I'm just not sure about comparing a single SRM 6 to a Gauss rifle.

3SRM6 would be 45 damage spread over 3-4 components at sub 300M, to the Gauss' 30 damage (possible 15+15, but if that's the case, many more SRMs would miss due to lateral movement) to past 600M.

Up to 1800M. Which has 2 points of heat VS 12. Crit destroyer VS...not Crit destroyer.



It's still a fair comparison, then you bring in backup weapons. Lasers? Too hot to use long with the SRMs, but the Gauss just keeps on going.




The advantages far outweight the weight until you get sub 20-30M, where the SRMs don't yet reach their max spread. Then you might only hit 2 hitboxes.

[Gas Guzzler]

Mcgral18, on 07 October 2015 - 01:38 PM, said:

3SRM6 would be 45 damage spread over 3-4 components at sub 300M, to the Gauss' 30 damage (possible 15+15, but if that's the case, many more SRMs would miss due to lateral movement) to past 600M.

Up to 1800M. Which has 2 points of heat VS 12. Crit destroyer VS...not Crit destroyer.



It's still a fair comparison, then you bring in backup weapons. Lasers? Too hot to use long with the SRMs, but the Gauss just keeps on going.




The advantages far outweight the weight until you get sub 20-30M, where the SRMs don't yet reach their max spread. Then you might only hit 2 hitboxes.

Yeah, so up damage and tighten spread on SRMs to make them better at brawling.

[wanderer]

Quote

A weapon that can shoot once every 8 seconds won't "brawl fine",

Got it in one. That would and should be the AC/20. Or even the AC/10. Goodness knows you can rip someone in half with Dakkawolves strapping on the UAC/10 goodness. Oh and lobbing SRMs at targets.

Heck, the Gauss even has a 60m minimum range in tabletop. And it's still a preferred weapon, because huge single hit of damage + no heat = win win win.

[pwnface]

Mcgral18, on 07 October 2015 - 01:38 PM, said:

3SRM6 would be 45 damage spread over 3-4 components at sub 300M, to the Gauss' 30 damage (possible 15+15, but if that's the case, many more SRMs would miss due to lateral movement) to past 600M.

You lost me here. When did Gauss start doing 30 damage? 15 pinpoint vs 45 spread seems pretty fair when I consider the range and heat benefits.

Edited by pwnface, 07 October 2015 - 02:20 PM.

[Mcgral18]

pwnface, on 07 October 2015 - 02:17 PM, said:

You lost me here. When did Gauss start doing 30 damage?

Because they're used in Pairs.



A slight oversight in weight. So, 36 SRMs, at roughly the same damage per component, at less range, at considerably more heat.

[pwnface]

Mcgral18, on 07 October 2015 - 02:20 PM, said:

A slight oversight in weight. So, 36 SRMs, at roughly the same damage per component, at less range, at considerably more heat.

36 SRMs at 2.5 damage each is 90 damage. Let's assume you can get 50% of your damage on the component you are aiming for, you are still putting 45 damage into a component vs the 30 pinpoint of dual gauss. The recycle time on SRMs is also 4 seconds whereas for Gauss it is effectively 4.75 seconds. I mean I guess the Gauss option wouldn't be terrible for brawling but the SRM mech should destroy you with all things being equal.

If you increased the recycle time on Gauss to 7.25 (+ 0.75 charge) seconds the SRM mech would be firing it's 3rd volley as you are starting your 2nd volley. 60 damage vs 270 damage. I'd say the Gauss option is next to useless in this scenario.

How about instead of trying to nerf Gauss across the board by increasing it's cooldown, we change it to be specifically less effective for brawling? How about from 0-100m or even 0-150m the Gauss round is accelerating and the damage ramps up from 0-15 within this distance. This would keep Gauss effective at mid to long range while making it worse for dealing with "in your face" brawlers.

Edited by pwnface, 07 October 2015 - 02:51 PM.

[Mcgral18]

pwnface, on 07 October 2015 - 02:50 PM, said:

How about instead of trying to nerf Gauss across the board by increasing it's cooldown, we change it to be specifically less effective for brawling? How about from 0-100m or even 0-150m the Gauss round is accelerating and the damage ramps up from 0-15 within this distance. This would keep Gauss effective at mid to long range while making it worse for dealing with "in your face" brawlers.

Because that requires effort on PGIs part, and they don't even want to adjust .XML variables (meant to be changed).

6 seconds would be fine for Gauss and buffed ERPPCs (to be effective at long range, and not have the same cooldown as brawling weapons)


Linear decrease was in once upon a time.

[pwnface]

Mcgral18, on 07 October 2015 - 02:55 PM, said:

Because that requires effort on PGIs part, and they don't even want to adjust .XML variables (meant to be changed).

6 seconds would be fine for Gauss and buffed ERPPCs (to be effective at long range, and not have the same cooldown as brawling weapons)


Linear decrease was in once upon a time.

I rather have a good (not lazy) solution from PGI with linear damage decrease for weapons that people want minimum ranges for. Nerfing the Gauss cd to 6 seconds likely wouldn't change how often we see people running Gauss builds but it would significantly decrease their effectiveness at ALL ranges. Maybe Gauss is too strong for long range too though. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Edited by pwnface, 07 October 2015 - 03:00 PM.

[50 50]

Nothing wrong with the weapons.
Any changes to them as they are will only have a ripple effect of other balance issues.

I would suggest that the problem with the Meta is a symptom of the competitiveness and mentality of the high tiers.
These metas are also trends.
Find an effective missile build and break the Meta. I honestly would have thought it possible with the 300+ mechs we have in the game.

Down in the lower tiers we see plenty of variety.

[Homeskilit]

50 50, on 07 October 2015 - 03:03 PM, said:

Down in the lower tiers we see plenty of variety.

Why would you expect to lose this variety with a buff to SRMs?

[pwnface]

50 50, on 07 October 2015 - 03:03 PM, said:

Nothing wrong with the weapons.
Any changes to them as they are will only have a ripple effect of other balance issues.

I would suggest that the problem with the Meta is a symptom of the competitiveness and mentality of the high tiers.
These metas are also trends.
Find an effective missile build and break the Meta. I honestly would have thought it possible with the 300+ mechs we have in the game.

Down in the lower tiers we see plenty of variety.

No such effective missile build exists ergo it isn't part of the current "Meta". SRMs are just not strong enough in the current state of the game. This isn't to say that I can't make an SRM boat and mop up PUGs in solo queue, just that it's easier to do so with other weapons.

[Alwrathandabout42ninjas]

Giving this thread a bump. I really cannot stand the fact that nothing has been done to improve SRM's for such a long period of time. What happened to Russ saying in a few town halls back that they would implement timely balance changes? Guess that was thrown out the window.

HARDLY ANYONE USES SRM'S ANYMORE. BRAWLING IS DEAD. FFS FIX YOUR GAME PGI.