Dimento Graven, on 08 October 2015 - 08:45 AM, said:
Ok then, what's your understanding of PGI's definition of how an MG is supposed to function?
I get the impression from some of the examples used to cry about it's supposed underperformance that some of you believe that it should be just as viable to load one MG and be able to kill a 'mech as quickly and easily as you would if you were loading one ML.
I would posit that that is no where near PGI's intent for the MG.
AFAIK, PGI's "intent" for the MG is to be a crit specialist. The idea is simply to have other primary weapons to get a mech exposed, and then use MGs to "finish off" a target quickly.
The problem is... the MG doesn't do that very well.
Quote
And hence the need for ONE OF US to define their position. I don't think I need to, the MG, from my perspective operates exactly as it should.
It's a supplement to main weaponry, it's not intended to be used as THE SOLE weapon in any engagement against 'mechs.
Much like the argument I've been making about MG's. If used properly, they're fine.
BUT, arguing to change the design of a weapon because some people are stupid is, in of itself, kind of stupid.
When used properly, they are still very meddling.
It's the same logic used for LBX (both defenders of LBX and PGI), and to use a 10 ton weapon for the same/similar purpose that an MG is pretty bad, but that's a mechanics issue...
Quote
If you think that was a 'strawman' you're making an incredible mistake.
I've been using them on the field, off and on, since closed beta.
Back in their OP hay day it was oh so much fun to load up Jaegers and Caphrats with PPC's and MG's charge into a 'mech blasting PPC's, stop at ~150 meters blasting PPC's and MG's and quite quickly "pop" went that weasel.
Does that work as well now? Hell no, but it was never the intent that that should have been a valid battle tactic.
"OP hayday"?
Back in Open Beta, MGs were the #1 mocked weapon when the Spider-5K existed. In fact, you could literally
safely ignore that mech was on the field. It was kinda thought that the Spider-5V was better (and that's a complete crock now).
MGs needed
multiple buffs to even become "less than trash", and it took multiple iterations to finally become "acceptable". Still, there are better options by far.
Quote
Now, when I'm in the mood for griefing fun I'll load up a pinballing 'mech with ML's/SL's/MPL's/SPL's and MG's go in for some 'dine and dash' running up to 'mechs engaged with someone else, blasting out rear torsos or blowing off legs.
It's great fun, and it's fun having the MG's going non-stop while the 'mech cools from blasting the lasers, and I get plenty of kills with just the MG's going.
They are a supplement to an alpha, not intended to be used as the primary portion of the alpha.
It doesn't really work as opponent skill level increases.. and it's worse for MGs. There's a certain graph about Streaks that though mostly it's just a mockup that shows how useful they are as the opponents are more skillful.
There's also a graph (I think QQ made them) that shows the effectiveness of crit weapons (basically, crit weapon calculation) and MGs when it comes to how much damage they do based on the # you carry.
First things first.. if you can avoid carrying a crit-centric weapon (MGs+LBX).. the non-crit centric weapon is generally better at doing crit damage. We're talking PPCs, Gauss, AC20s, etc.
When it comes to MGs and boating... the difference is that MGs actually need to be boated. When it comes to smaller weapons... even boating 2 SL lasers is thing... but it's not really viable when it comes to MGs.
To even make MGs viable, you'd have to boat 4. Mechs like the Anansi (Spider hero) or Vindicator-1X (3 ballistic hardpoints) are not really MG viable. Both have their own deficiencies (well, mostly the Vindicator), but MGs are not really optimal weapons for them.
Even the mechs that generally could carry MGs aren't really optimal for them. If MGs were as devastating as you'd claim, the Spider-5K would be the most dominant/popular mech for Lights (they are not).
The most logical 4MG mech "should" be the Huggin (Raven Hero), but if you even see people being the most effective at trolling with that mech, they
forego the MGs in favor of more SRM ammo. Mind you, the Huggin is crazily quirked, but if MGs were truly used more.. that mech would have been a good platform for it... but it's not. SRM spamming is far more productive than MGs.
Quote
No, it doesn't assume anything it's from first hand experience in the drop queues. Just because lights are only 15%, and mediums in the 20's, doesn't mean that MG's aren't used and are under powered, and it doesn't mean that one of the more common tactics, pinballing, isn't used and would be further overly enhanced by increasing the effectiveness of MG's.
Ah yes, the further fallacious and spurious view point that you MUST be 'face to face' with your opponent to kill them.
Actually, face time is a thing.
To get the .8 DPS that 1 MG could do, you would have to spend 1 second's worth of time with an enemy.
Even the most common Light weapons have more range and LESS duration (which means less facetime with the enemy), while dealing more damage on the whole.
This is before we factor in the cone of fire that MGs have (and no other weapon has this) and the range you'd have to be at to make MGs effective. All of which lower your "potential DPS" compared to the smallest of the lasers. Even Clan mechs would rather just run more Clan Small Lasers instead of wasting it with MGs. It's not even a contest.
I see enough people waste their time on these "1MG builds".. yet that's 1 ton (.75 ton for clans) consumed for .5 ton of ammo just for a weapon system. It's just awful when they don't use 25% of their ammo (because, they don't get into range to use them, and by the time they do, they probably get wrecked).
Quote
<sigh>
'Face time' doesn't matter when you can get to a position your opponent can't bring his weapons to bare on you. It's always so much 'fun' watching the lights pinball off the heavier 'mechs. Why do they do it? Well it's simple enough:
1. Most pilots are lazy and don't try overly hard to avoid colliding with another 'mech.
2. There's not much risk in running into another 'mech.
3. For 'mechs small in stature, jamming yourself into a larger enemy 'mech will pretty much keep the enemy from being able to bring his weapons to target you due to torso bending/twist limitations.
'Face time' in that scenario is typically inconsequential.
Again EVERYTHING you are saying seems to indicate you want the MG to be a mainline 'mech v 'mech weapon.
It's not, get over that idea, it's not supposed to be, it was never intended to be.
Pretty much any light or medium with two or more ballistics slots, I've seen 'em out there, piloted them myself, there are people out there who understand their use and make use of them.
Point to where I've said that 'lights get the most play' or that 'lights were the dominant 'mechs in queues'.
What I'm talking about is the most common tactics utilized by the fast lights/mediums in the game.
The two most common tactics are:
1. Pinballing - High speed attack blazing away with extremely short range weapons on any 'mech in range. Essentially zip in, blast, zip out, rinse and repeat until end of match, or you're blown to bits.
2. Sniper - Load up with a few ERLL, or ERPPC's and find a hidey hole to take potshots at the enemy from.
These tactics have zero to do with the size of the population of those particular 'mechs.
While I see the Snipers often (because, it generally relies on ECM to be more of a nuisnace), pinballing works as a lower skill method. The best Light pilots have to be far more calculating and you can't just "randomly pinball" and expect good results.
TL:DR
MGs are the one of the worst weapons for a reason. It's not just a random event or massive complaining... they are bad since the "preemptive nerf" when the Clan mechs debuted. If MG mechs were a real thing, I should see more of them, but I don't. Using the MG is literally a handicap to yourself, if not the team, and to justify its usage when it fails more than the most common weapons in their bracket (SL/SPL) is pretty bad.
While MGs aren't actually garbage tier, but they are "not worth considering" unless you have no other options... in which case the Spider-5K's impression of the Urbie would be a terribly sad idea.
Dimento Graven, on 08 October 2015 - 09:58 AM, said:
If LRMs are so 'unviable' please explain why they proliferate like rabbits on Viagra during challenges? Does PGI change how LRMs work during challenges? No. If a weapon isn't viable you won't see it loaded, hardly ever, like the Flamer. However, even during NON challenge times, you can count on at least ONE person bringing LRMs every match. I can't think of a public queue match I've had that hasn't had one LRM boat in it. Usually there's two per side, hell I've seen light 'mechs using them successfully...
LRMs are bad, but in this instance... the ability to get damage (even if it doesn't kill) is only as effective as the opfor's competence vs LRMs.
Of course, it's just easier to take ECM to troll people and help the team win (because not enough people take TAG with their LRM boats) and it often works in any challenge.
It doesn't mean LRMs are good though.
2
