182 replies to this topic

[Der Zivilist]

I'm actually not sure if we'll see pilot skills that improve certain weapons.

As far as we've been told, every pilot skill unlocks a module that needs to be installed on a 'Mech to grant a benefit (I can't find the exact quote, though the Devblogs on Role Warfare for example strongly imply this as well). The entire pilot skill tree exists only to unlock modules.

Of course, there are also the 'Mech- and variant-specific Efficiencies, which you unlock by gaining XP on that variant. These things have been stated to represent little 'hacks' and personalizations your pilot invents to increase his performance while piloting that variant of that 'Mech. Things like torso turn speed, jump jet regeneration speed and so on will be affected by Efficiencies. Will weapons be affected? I have no idea.

[Seabear]

The choice of LL or PPC is a personal one based on one's style of fighting. I would not want to use a PPC unless I had a significant short range backup weapon(s). Without it one becomes a sitting duck if a mech gets in under minimum range - a feature I consider inherent in the PPC to balance its tremendous power. Using TT statistics, the PPC yields about 1.42 POD outside 90 meters per ton against 1.60 POD per ton for the LL with no range restriction. Both have a superior damage /ton ratio than the AC 10 (assuming 2 tons of ammo) or the LB10X. Both cannon have advantages but do come with ammo dependencacy and all that entails.

When considered as a grouped weapon, something interesting happens. 3 PPCs come in at 21 tons, produce 30 points of heat and 30 POD with a 90 meter long range advantage. 4 LLs are 20 tons, produce 32 heat and 32 damage with a 90 meter close range advantage. The difference comes down to style and how one wants the damage inflicted. Like the Duke said in Big Jake, "Near or far". If there is no minimum range for the PPC, it is the hands down winner. Otherwise, it is a personal choice.

If one wants to make it more interesting, begin substituting MLs for one of the larger weapons.

[Glythe]

Der Zivilist, on 09 July 2012 - 11:22 PM, said:

I'm actually not sure if we'll see pilot skills that improve certain weapons.

As far as we've been told, every pilot skill unlocks a module that needs to be installed on a 'Mech to grant a benefit (I can't find the exact quote, though the Devblogs on Role Warfare for example strongly imply this as well). The entire pilot skill tree exists only to unlock modules.

static.mwomercs.com/img/news/dev_blog4_02.png

Look on over to the scout tree and you'll see IDF accuracy. Now I can't think of any weapon in the game that has an indirect fire mode other than the LRM. I have no idea in the slightest why the scout tree would be making LRMs more accurate when the average scout has no ability to use them. But the point remains that there is one skill that makes one class of weapon more accurate.

[Fahr]

Glythe, on 10 July 2012 - 09:45 AM, said:

static.mwomercs.com/img/news/dev_blog4_02.png

Look on over to the scout tree and you'll see IDF accuracy. Now I can't think of any weapon in the game that has an indirect fire mode other than the LRM. I have no idea in the slightest why the scout tree would be making LRMs more accurate when the average scout has no ability to use them. But the point remains that there is one skill that makes one class of weapon more accurate.

I would assume that this helps the spotted indirect fire your allies are using, rather than your own missles

[Noahbash]

I actually think the Large laser has one single advantage. If you aren't very good at aiming, you have a higher chance of doing at least SOME damage if your reticle-aim is sloppy.

With the PPC, you get a short window to be on target, leaving more likelihood of completely wasting your shot.

[Der Zivilist]

Fahr, on 10 July 2012 - 09:57 AM, said:

I would assume that this helps the spotted indirect fire your allies are using, rather than your own missles

That's my assumption as well; else, why is it in the Scout tree and not in the Assault/Defend tree?

Of course, I don't mind being proven wrong, I'd get it for a Catapult/Stalker in a heartbeat.

[Glythe]

Fahr, on 10 July 2012 - 09:57 AM, said:

I would assume that this helps the spotted indirect fire your allies are using, rather than your own missles

That would mean that the average gamer who is probably playing alone is going to take an ability to increase missiles for someone else? How often do think that is going to be the case? I'm guessing 10-20% at best.

Der Zivilist, on 10 July 2012 - 11:43 AM, said:

why is it in the Scout tree and not in the Assault/Defend tree?

Why is the UAV/Satellite sweep in the commander tree? They are both recon abilities. If it was an improved spotting ability wouldn't it be called something like improved target designation? The pilot skills were described as a hack that makes things work better for your pilot. IDF Accuracy to me suggests that this hack makes your missiles more accurate.

Edited by Glythe, 10 July 2012 - 11:53 AM.

[Der Zivilist]

Glythe, on 10 July 2012 - 11:51 AM, said:

That would mean that the average gamer who is probably playing alone is going to take an ability to increase missiles for someone else? How often do think that is going to be the case? I'm guessing 10-20% at best.

So bring 3 lancemates in Catapults? If you think that it does not help you as a solo player, well, there are probably 20 other useful modules and only 3 slots on your 'Mech to be filled. You'll be glad to have one less you need to consider.

Glythe, on 10 July 2012 - 11:51 AM, said:

Why is the UAV/Satellite sweep in the commander tree?

Because it is not enhancing your scouting abilities, but rather grants you the ability to request third party assistance using the Battlegrid. And only the Commander has the ability to do anything on the Battlegrid other than viewing it.

[Nik Van Rhijn]

For smaller mechs whre the heat may not be such a problem I like the ERPPC. With no minimum range and a slightly longer range it is a good sniping/harassing weapon. With the LL or ERLL I have to be out of cover longer giving OPFOR time to hit me. The alternative of the Gauss rifle is too limiting, except perhaps on desert maps. It's just too heavy for a medium to carry much ammo as well unless you go XL.

[Bobfrombobtown]

Fahr, on 10 July 2012 - 09:57 AM, said:

I would assume that this helps the spotted indirect fire your allies are using, rather than your own missles

I cannot find confirmation on this one way or another. Either way, I'll probably be taking the scout tree since my preferred mode of operation is either scout or fire support. And indirect fire support is the best kind of fire support. (i.e. firing over ridges, buildings, other terrain and 'mechs)

Der Zivilist, on 09 July 2012 - 11:22 PM, said:

I'm actually not sure if we'll see pilot skills that improve certain weapons.

As far as we've been told, every pilot skill unlocks a module that needs to be installed on a 'Mech to grant a benefit (I can't find the exact quote, though the Devblogs on Role Warfare for example strongly imply this as well). The entire pilot skill tree exists only to unlock modules.

Of course, there are also the 'Mech- and variant-specific Efficiencies, which you unlock by gaining XP on that variant. These things have been stated to represent little 'hacks' and personalizations your pilot invents to increase his performance while piloting that variant of that 'Mech. Things like torso turn speed, jump jet regeneration speed and so on will be affected by Efficiencies. Will weapons be affected? I have no idea.

Individual weapons/weapon types do not appear to be affected by the 'mech xp, however there is "max heat", "heat loss", and "weapon cooldown times".

Glythe, on 10 July 2012 - 11:51 AM, said:

That would mean that the average gamer who is probably playing alone is going to take an ability to increase missiles for someone else? How often do think that is going to be the case? I'm guessing 10-20% at best.



Why is the UAV/Satellite sweep in the commander tree? They are both recon abilities. If it was an improved spotting ability wouldn't it be called something like improved target designation? The pilot skills were described as a hack that makes things work better for your pilot. IDF Accuracy to me suggests that this hack makes your missiles more accurate.

Really, people shouldn't be just blindly joining groups. They should be looking for people to join that could benefit from their skill set/play style. Unfortunately, I have no idea how the matchmaking thing will work, or if there will be something like a mass lobby for each "allegiance". Ideally there should be a mass lobby, or a group finder type deal where people can put up a "LFG" type thing with slots for roles. Of course without such a thing, hilarity may ensue as random people get lumped together and they find out they're a group of all scout mechs when they end up in game.

Edit: their -> they're*

Edited by Bobfrombobtown, 10 July 2012 - 01:14 PM.

[Necronous]

As a Missile Boat lover, I like to use PPC, but have no hatred of the Large Laser. My favorite mech, the Naginata (which won't be here for 6 years), sports a 3xLRM + 1xER-PPC + E3 combo that gladly accepts the longer range of the PPC in Line-of-Sight situations.

In this game though, after hearing about sustained fire rules for lasers, I'm really going to need to actually try them to judge. Presumably, lasers will "near-instantaneously" make contact with a mech and the skill will be in holding the laser on the target while it moves. Conversely, the PPC I assume will work more like a normal gun, and have at least some flight time, no matter how small, to account for when aiming at a moving mech. I may use lasers if my aim ends up sucking when using a PPC.

Edited by Necronous, 10 July 2012 - 02:09 PM.

[Xandre Blackheart]

Noahbash, on 10 July 2012 - 10:04 AM, said:

I actually think the Large laser has one single advantage. If you aren't very good at aiming, you have a higher chance of doing at least SOME damage if your reticle-aim is sloppy.

With the PPC, you get a short window to be on target, leaving more likelihood of completely wasting your shot.

I think that averages out with the fact that the PPC dumps all it's damage in the same spot. But yes I also think I will prefer the Large Laser, because I plan on doing a lot of evasive maneuvering, and Large Lasers will be a lot easier to aim, and to make snap shots with.

Nik Van Rhijn, on 10 July 2012 - 12:35 PM, said:

For smaller mechs whre the heat may not be such a problem I like the ERPPC. With no minimum range and a slightly longer range it is a good sniping/harassing weapon. With the LL or ERLL I have to be out of cover longer giving OPFOR time to hit me. The alternative of the Gauss rifle is too limiting, except perhaps on desert maps. It's just too heavy for a medium to carry much ammo as well unless you go XL.

The ERPPC is probably a good enough choice for a smaller mech, but with the high heat cost it will possibly limit mobility, since moving also generates heat. There's nothign worse than stepping out to fiire from cover and then shutting down, or being too hot to run away without shutting down. If that's so, the Large Laser may well become the preferred "big gun" for smaller mechs, since it also lacks a minimum range and is light enough to allow extra heat sinks to actually use it to the limit.

[AlphaKale]

Bloodweaver, on 09 July 2012 - 08:46 AM, said:

My prediction is actually the reverse of yours. I think the LL will generally be more suited to heavy/assault Mechs, while the PPC will generally be more useful to medium/low-end heavy Mechs. I think this will be the case because the benefits of LLs over PPCs only become really significant when you're mounting several of them together. (...) Additionally, the PPC's minimum range will be less of a concern if you have the speed to move out of it easily.

Very good points! I especially hadn't considered a faster mech's ability to dictate engagement range: A fast mech with a PPC can always retreat to open up the range again to avoid the 90m short-range cutoff.

Glythe, on 09 July 2012 - 03:00 PM, said:

Yep I have to think you're spot on here. Larger mechs carrying PPC will be in trouble as they can't avoid the minimum range distance.
(...)
Mediums that can move quickly could really cause a lot of havoc with a single PPC. But fast mechs who can dictate the range of a fight might be well suited to using dual PPC (or perhaps a single ER PPC) to engage heavier mechs with guerrilla style tactics.

More good points in favour of PPCs for smaller/faster mechs.

Xandre Blackheart, on 09 July 2012 - 03:19 PM, said:

In general I agree, except the part about the lasers missing. More likely you are correct in stating you will be getting peppered on various parts as you jink around, since the lasers appear to be instant on and easier to aim. They're even correctable mid firing sequence if you drag your reticule from what I've observed.
It sounds better to me than trying to tag a fast moving small target at distance with a PPC where a miss is as good as a mile.
It sounds like that is going to be an observable dynamic - large mechs using Large Lasers because of stacking efficiency and aiming bonuses, and smaller fast mechs preferring PPC's because of the compact damage dealing ability and less concern about aiming.

I think it depends on how much your own mech sways around from running. If things are nice and stable while you move then it might be easier to snap off that PPC shot while running at 100+ kph, otherwise you might have to hose a bit with a laser in order to not miss completely.

Nik Van Rhijn, on 10 July 2012 - 12:35 PM, said:

For smaller mechs whre the heat may not be such a problem I like the ERPPC. With no minimum range and a slightly longer range it is a good sniping/harassing weapon. With the LL or ERLL I have to be out of cover longer giving OPFOR time to hit me.

Also a good point in favour of PPCs for lighter mechs. If I have to stand around waiting for the LL to finish its cycle then I have to stay out of cover that second or two longer... this can mean the difference between safety and a face full of LRMs!

Xandre Blackheart, on 10 July 2012 - 04:52 PM, said:

I think that averages out with the fact that the PPC dumps all it's damage in the same spot. But yes I also think I will prefer the Large Laser, because I plan on doing a lot of evasive maneuvering, and Large Lasers will be a lot easier to aim, and to make snap shots with.
The ERPPC is probably a good enough choice for a smaller mech, but with the high heat cost it will possibly limit mobility, since moving also generates heat. There's nothign worse than stepping out to fire from cover and then shutting down, or being too hot to run away without shutting down. If that's so, the Large Laser may well become the preferred "big gun" for smaller mechs, since it also lacks a minimum range and is light enough to allow extra heat sinks to actually use it to the limit.

I think the heat dynamic will be a big player here. Since lighter mechs will probably favour a hit-and-run approach, you can have a relatively 'hot' weapon on your mech. Basically, fire once or twice, build up lots of heat, but then break off and run away to cool down. A brawler or assault isn't going to have the luxury of breaking off because they will be too slow. That means heat management will be critical for the heavier, slower mechs. Speedy designs can always run away.
Of course then you have other speedy mechs chasing you down... I anticipate the anti-scout role will be highly entertaining...

[Procyon Alpha]

Okay from what I have seen Min and Max ranges are per tech readout, and 90m min range looks like a lot of suck. I don't think I will be taking PPCs any time soon seeing how fast the light mech close with their targets in this game. The BFs are not open enough for long range direct fire and there is too much cover for light mechs to close that gap. On paper PPCs look great but I think you are going to find out they just are not practical, similar to an Arrow IV system. Not in these fights my friends, look at your role and area of Opperation and pick an efficient load out not just big numbers that look good.

[DEHK]

if you have the speed and piloting skill to keep out of range of an opponents large lasers, then PPC's clearly win.

i cannot tell you the number of table top games that6 i have won because i was a total dick about keeping range and plucking away with that single PPC.

[Xandre Blackheart]

DEHK, on 10 July 2012 - 09:50 PM, said:

if you have the speed and piloting skill to keep out of range of an opponents large lasers, then PPC's clearly win.

i cannot tell you the number of table top games that6 i have won because i was a total dick about keeping range and plucking away with that single PPC.

Yep. PPC wins at range, IF you can dictate range.

If you can't you are in trouble.

I guess a lot of it will depend on how the developers treat longer ranged weapons in game....

[Glythe]

AlphaKale, on 10 July 2012 - 09:26 PM, said:

I think the heat dynamic will be a big player here. Since lighter mechs will probably favour a hit-and-run approach, you can have a relatively 'hot' weapon on your mech. Basically, fire once or twice, build up lots of heat, but then break off and run away to cool down. A brawler or assault isn't going to have the luxury of breaking off because they will be too slow. That means heat management will be critical for the heavier, slower mechs. Speedy designs can always run away.
Of course then you have other speedy mechs chasing you down... I anticipate the anti-scout role will be highly entertaining...

Really it's going to come down to information and your loadout. Good teams will Say for example your team figures out theres a stock Awesome terrorizing one side of the map. Unless he has some heavy of backup it is only a matter of time until you send 2 fast mechs inside his minimum range. At that point you don't even need to be fast as all he has is a small laser.

A PPC could be amazing on a scout for harassing a heavier enemy but there's a few problems with this strategy. One PPC isn't going to kill anything quickly (watch the Hunchback repeatedly shoot a catapult with the AC/20 and you get the idea); you won't be able to support much more than one ER PPC on a scout due to heat and weight restrictions. And if you do run hot hoping you have time to cool down while you run away then an enemy scout built for close range combat will eat you.

You also have to consider that smarter Assaults might build for a hot pair group. You can build an 80 damage close mech to pair up with a 60 damage range mech. Any scout trying to take a few PPC pot shots is likely to pay dearly (even from partial hits).

[AlphaKale]

Glythe, on 11 July 2012 - 01:01 AM, said:

You also have to consider that smarter Assaults might build for a hot pair group. You can build an 80 damage close mech to pair up with a 60 damage range mech. Any scout trying to take a few PPC pot shots is likely to pay dearly (even from partial hits).

Your points on team dynamics are quite good. A heavy or assault can alpha strike to take down a light or medium on the other team, then step back to cool down while a teammate with a more sustainable loadout covers for them. I think mixtures of "roles within the Roles" will be important for a team's success. For example within the scout class, there is scout and anti-scouts designed to chase down enemy scouts. Within the Brawler category you can have my previous example of short, high-damage output machines or slower damaging but more staying-power loadouts. Then there's the ballistic vs energy loadout variation. Ballistics will give you more immediate hitting power, but energy loadouts will give much more endurance. Of course that endurance assumes your mech is still standing, so your energy design is going to have to be cleverly piloted and/or have heavy armor or speed.

[Maximillian Steel]

Large laser or er large laser. They only had 4 sec recycle time per shot. PPC too long. At least in mechwarrior 4. Also less slots for more equipment and less heat per shot.

[Bobfrombobtown]

Maximillian Steel, on 12 July 2012 - 12:25 PM, said:

Large laser or er large laser. They only had 4 sec recycle time per shot. PPC too long. At least in mechwarrior 4. Also less slots for more equipment and less heat per shot.

Depends on the video game. Or depends on the rules you use.