182 replies to this topic

[Xandre Blackheart]

The specifications for the Large Laser-

Heat: 8
Damage: 8
Range: 15 (450m)
Weight: 5 Tons
Critical Slots: 2

And the specifications for the PPC-

Heat: 10
Damage: 10
Range: 18 (540m)
Weight: 7 Tons
Critical Slots: 3

The differences seem negligible at first glance. But on the breakdown you are gaining 2 damage and 90m of range for the cost of 2 heat per shot and 2 tons and a crit space. Considering that 2 tons (and an extra crit space) can be used to even further offset the heat cost (making it 6 heat for 8 damage vs 10 for 10 at the same tonnage) the only consideration becomes range.

90m extra range is debatable. It will make a difference, but will the number of times it becomes a critical factor offset the inefficiencies of the PPC? It's hard to draw any other conclusion except Large lasers are more efficient than PPC when it comes to putting out damage. Of course, this is just from looking at the weapon specs.

There are however, other considerations that we don't know about yet that could flip the balance.

The most obvious one is targeting mechanics. The Large Laser, like all lasers, has a "burn time" for the damage to be applied to a specific section of the target. The PPC on the other hand, appears from some accounts to be a bolt style weapon and may do all of it's damage in one spot. The question then becomes one of gunnery skill. If you have the skill to "burn" the majority of your laser shot in the same spot, the Large Laser still wins on efficiency. But it does come at the cost of pilot distraction.

The other unknown is recycle time. I have been unable to find any information on recycle times for PPC or Large Laser. From the general trend one could assume that Large Lasers will recycle faster, but that is still an assumption. I have no idea for example how MUCH faster the Large Laser might Recycle for example (if at all).

And there are other imponderables. There is the possibility of EMP style effects from a PPC hit. (addendum - ok it is cannon but it's multiple strikes- probably way overdone in previous titles) It's traditional but not cannon. The PPC by canon has a minimum range of 90m, but that may not be implemented. By canon the PPC causes recoil in the firing mech like an AC, but I haven't heard anything about recoil firing effects. And on and on. These are things that we likely won't know until final release.

ADDENDUM: Bluten pointed out below that there may possibly be a difference in the number of Hardpoint slots a PPC takes up vs a Large Laser. - specifically 2 for a PPC and 1 for a large Laser. But that's also speculative. And possibly incorrect due to confusion about terminology. (hardpoint slots =/= critical slots)

Still all in all it looks encouraging for the large Laser. In past Mechwarrior titles there was absolutely no reason to use a Large Laser instead of a PPC because of the mechanics of the game. This time around I think I will be at least seriously trying them instead of the PPC.

Edited by Xandre Blackheart, 08 July 2012 - 01:01 PM.

[Keizer]

well that pretty much sums it up ........

[Future Perfect]

To me the PPC is the better choice than the Large Laser... heck it's even a better choice than the ER Large Laser.

[Jukebox1986]

You should also consider that a lance shoud have a good weapon mix, to fight efficient at any range, and in all terrain.
But in the end i think it comes down to your fighting style.

Edited by Janus Wealth, 08 July 2012 - 12:03 PM.

[Jakob Knight]

One other consideration. The standard PPC has a minimum range of 3 (45 meters). If they handle this as they did with LRMs, then a PPC will be unable to damage anything within 45 meters. Alternately, the weapon may cause feedback to the firing unit within that range, doing as much damage to itself as the enemy.

Another consideration, which we don't know about yet, is recycle time. The Large Laser probably fires faster.

Lastly, the Large Laser takes up only two crits to the PPC's three, which means it can fit into the Center Torso. This means the weapon can be made very durable and will likely be the last weapon you lose if placed there.

Just my own two cents.

Edited by Jakob Knight, 08 July 2012 - 12:11 PM.

[Xandre Blackheart]

There's always individual preference. Some people will choose the extra 90m of range, because they like range. They will also probably play with ac/2 builds also.

Some people will insist on the extra 2 points of damage, again a personal preference. They'll also play around with ac/20 builds maybe.

If you like both you could go for a gauss rifle.

Of course then you might say the PPC is more efficient than a gauss rifle, but if you like efficiency, the large Laser becomes a serious consideration.

I wouldn't tell anyone that they shouldn't use PPC, that would be silly. There obviously will be situations where it is the better weapon choice, but that comes at the cost of efficiency in raw damage potential.

Within 450m and barring unknowns like pilot skill and targeting, recycle and other effects, the Large Laser should on average beat out a PPC when it comes to raw damage dealt. It's at least close enough that I will be trying variants to see if the efficiencies make a major difference.

[Adm Awesome]

yeah it definitely depends on how you're going to play. If you're an Awesome for example, you probably don't want to change those PPC's to large lasers while you snipe. also if you want to take advantage of cover, you can poke out, shoot a much stronger burst with PPC's and then run back into cover. Large lasers are more of something I'd choose if I want to get up and personal.

I think MWO new mechanic for laser WILL be that ultimate factor that agree with my tactic. You can shoot large lasers up to 450m but since it's an over time damage instead of instant, many players won't want to risk sitting at that distance and missing on a lot of that damage. Now with a PPC, if your reticle is on them, you're pretty much guaranteed full damage output, as with the Large Laser, if they're moving or if you're just in a bad position, you might get as little as half that damage output.

This is assuming that PPC will do instant damage, but with it being a "lightning-gun" and since that's at least how it's already implemented in the game (at least according to the trailer) then I think it's safe to assume. Even in the older games, I never really used lasers at their max distance, I always used them as up close harassing tools.

[Xandre Blackheart]

Jakob Knight, on 08 July 2012 - 12:10 PM, said:

One other consideration. The standard PPC has a minimum range of 3 (45 meters). If they handle this as they did with LRMs, then a PPC will be unable to damage anything within 45 meters. Alternately, the weapon may cause feedback to the firing unit within that range, doing as much damage to itself as the enemy.

Another consideration, which we don't know about yet, is recycle time. The Large Laser probably fires faster.

Lastly, the Large Laser takes up only two crits to the PPC's three, which means it can fit into the Center Torso. This means the weapon can be made very durable and will likely be the last weapon you lose if placed there.

Just my own two cents.

I did cover most of this in the OP, but the point about CT LL is a good consideration

[xxx WreckinBallRaj xxx]

It's really quite simple. The Large Laser will weigh less and produce less heat, meaning it will be easier to fit into a Mech and use. The PPC is obviously better combat wise, but it weighs more and the extra heat means you'll have to spend even more weight on top of it for heat sinks. Honestly the Large Laser will probably be more popular come release because it will be easier to fit in with other weapons and not give as many heat issues. I forgot to mention that Large Lasers take up less hardpoint slot space than PPCs, which means they can fit into smaller hardpoints than PPCs. If you look at a MW 4 title a PPC is 3 slots, a Large Laser is 2. I don't know the exact space comparison they will feature for MWO but it's a very safe bet a PPC will still be bigger. In other words a PPC will only fit into larger Energy hardpoints where as a Large Laser could probably be shoved in anywhere.

In summery I think I'd much rather put Large Lasers in my Atlas than PPCs. While I'll hit for less damage and have a shorter range, I'll have more free space and tons for other things. It could mean some extra ammo for other guns, some extra armor, or perhaps some extra speed to not be so painfully slow.

Edited by Bluten, 08 July 2012 - 12:18 PM.

[Xytaglyph]

Future Perfect, on 08 July 2012 - 11:51 AM, said:

To me the PPC is the better choice than the Large Laser... heck it's even a better choice than the ER Large Laser.

agreed

[Xandre Blackheart]

Bluten, on 08 July 2012 - 12:15 PM, said:

It's really quite simple. The Large Laser will weigh less and produce less heat, meaning it will be easier to fit into a Mech and use. The PCC is obviously better combat wise, but it weighs more and the extra heat means you'll have to spend even more weight on top of it for heat sinks. Honestly the Large Laser will probably be more popular come release because it will be easier to fit in with other weapons and not give as many heat issues. I forgot to mention that Large Lasers take up less hardpoint slot space than PPCs, which means they can fit into smaller hardpoints than PPCs. If you look at a MW 4 title a PPC is 3 slots, a Large Laser is 2. I don't know the exact space comparison they will feature for MWO but it's a very safe bet a PPC will still be bigger.

In summery I think I'd much rather put Large Lasers in my Atlas than PPCs. While I'll hit for less damage and have a shorter range, I'll have more free space and tons for other things. It could mean some extra ammo for other guns, some extra armor, or perhaps some extra speed to not be so painfully slow.

Now that is something I didn't cover in my original post, hardpoint slots. I'll add it.

[xxx WreckinBallRaj xxx]

Xandre Blackheart, on 08 July 2012 - 12:17 PM, said:

Now that is something I didn't cover in my original post, hardpoint slots. I'll add it.

Yes if your hardpoint slot is too small for a PPC, guess what, you can't use it, even if you have the free tons. PPC is a bigger weapon and requires bigger Energy slots/hardpoints than Lasers.

[Der Zivilist]

PPCs taking up multiple or "larger" hardpoints has no basis in any officially released information whatsoever. Everything the Devs have said up to this point is one weapon, one hardpoint. You can correlate this with all videos, Devblogs, Q&A's and Ask The Devs sessions published to this date. In fact, we can explicitly see an AC/20 take up the exact same hardpoint as a MG in the Mechlab preview video. There are no size differences between weapons when it comes to hardpoints.

So when Bluten says "it's a very safe bet", what he really means is either "I am completely making this up", or "I am in the beta and have unreleased information and I am breaking the NDA right now".


Now, on the difference between the Large Laser and the PPC. One thing you have to keep in mind is accuracy. The PPC as a bolt-style weapon will have a travel time, however short, before it reaches its target (you can see a few blasts flying around in preview videos). That means you can theoretically miss a moving target with a PPC because you didn't lead it properly. The laser, however, is "instant on"; you point it at the target directly, and it instantly hits. No travel time. Since we are talking long-range weapons here, this might mean that the laser is easier to handle for people who are traditionally bad shots.

Of course, these people will also have to content with having to keep the laser on-target for the duration in order to inflict full damage... it will probably boil down to personal preference.

Edited by Der Zivilist, 08 July 2012 - 12:34 PM.

[Justalyne]

Unfortunately you can't just say a single weapon is better than another, it completely depends on circumstances, in some cases the extra shot weight and distance is the ruling stats, in others minumum range and space is, tell me what mech and role you are playing then we can discuss it.

Jakob Knight, on 08 July 2012 - 12:10 PM, said:

One other consideration. The standard PPC has a minimum range of 3 (45 meters).

In my opinion, this is the main difference between the weapons, in the right circumstances minimum range is a killer for the PPC.

In other thoughts, I was playing about the other night with loadouts, and consider this: 2 PPC's weigh 14 tons and do 20 damage for 20 heat and take up 6 slots, 3 large lasers weigh 15 tons and do 24 damage for 24 heat and take up the same 6 slots, I know which I would prefer and it doesn't start with a 'P' .

[Xandre Blackheart]

Der Zivilist, on 08 July 2012 - 12:32 PM, said:

PPCs taking up multiple or "larger" hardpoints has no basis in any officially released information whatsoever. Everything the Devs have said up to this point is one weapon, one hardpoint. You can correlate this with all videos, Devblogs, Q&A's and Ask The Devs sessions published to this date. In fact, we can explicitly see an AC/20 take up the exact same hardpoint as a MG in the Mechlab preview video. There are no size differences between weapons when it comes to hardpoints.

So when Bluten says "it's a very safe bet", what he really means is either "I am completely making this up", or "I am in the beta and have unreleased information and I am breaking the NDA right now".


Now, on the difference between the Large Laser and the PPC. One thing you have to keep in mind is accuracy. The PPC as a bolt-style weapon will have a travel time, however short, before it reaches its target (you can see a few blasts flying around in preview videos). That means you can theoretically miss a moving target with a PPC because you didn't lead it properly. The laser, however, is "instant on"; you point it at the target directly, and it instantly hits. No travel time. Since we are talking long-range weapons here, this might mean that the laser is easier to handle for people who are traditionally bad shots.

Of course, these people will also have to content with having to keep the laser on-target for the duration in order to inflict full damage... it will probably boil down to personal preference.

Which is why I put it under the "imponderables/unknown" section of the post. With caveats like possibly... oh I forgot the possibly

But yes, efficiency has a LOT to do with scaling. The more efficient it is, the better it scales.

[Bobfrombobtown]

Actually, 3 hexes = 90 meters. Also from everything we have seen, 1 weapon = 1 hardpoint, critical slots is something different. As to the actual tactical advantages of one over the other, this depends on whether or not the "fluff" related to PPCs disrupting electronics is implemented. This can give PPCs a slight advantage over the Large Lasers since they would also disrupt the targeting abilities of the 'mech hit by the PPC. From a purely number based standpoint the large laser wins.

Edited by Bobfrombobtown, 08 July 2012 - 12:43 PM.

[Der Zivilist]

Justalyne, on 08 July 2012 - 12:33 PM, said:

In other thoughts, I was playing about the other night with loadouts, and consider this: 2 PPC's weigh 14 tons and do 20 damage for 20 heat and take up 6 slots, 3 large lasers weigh 15 tons and do 24 damage for 24 heat and take up the same 6 slots, I know which I would prefer and it doesn't start with a 'P' .

Unless of course you really want that extra range, or can't be bothered trying to keep the beam on target.

By the way, we also have the ER Large Laser and the ER PPC in our launch equipment lineup. Both are exactly the same as their normal counterparts, except that they gain +25% maximum range in exchange for +50% heat generated. That means the ER LL is at 12 heat, 19 hexes, and the ER PPC is at 15 heat, 23 hexes.

Edited by Der Zivilist, 08 July 2012 - 12:44 PM.

[Sept Wolfke]

The large laser spreading damage across locations will cause it to have results similar to a LRM strike, I sense (though ofcourse the difference between the weapon systems, laser vs. missile, is like night and day..just saying the results will be similar).

So if you want a damage effect that's similar to MRM's (Medium ranged missiles) then the large laser is probably gonna be for you.

I could see the PPC being like an energy version of the AC-10, an option for those who don't want to deal with ammunition issues.

[Xandre Blackheart]

Bobfrombobtown, on 08 July 2012 - 12:42 PM, said:

Actually, 3 hexes = 90 meters. Also from everything we have seen, 1 weapon = 1 hardpoint, critical slots is something different. As to the actual tactical advantages of one over the other, this depends on whether or not the "fluff" related to PPCs disrupting electronics is implemented. This can give PPCs a slight advantage over the Large Lasers since they would also disrupt the targeting abilities of the 'mech hit by the PPC. From a purely number based standpoint the large laser wins.

Sarna: "Targets hit by multiple, simultaneous PPCs can also suffer electrical side-effects, such as overloaded computer systems or targeting sensors"

I would say the fluff was badly overdone in previous titles. Multiple hits might do it but in previous titles it was just too exaggerated an effect, much like rocking hits with AC/s were overdone.

But yes, depending on how it is implemented, it is a consideration.

[xxx WreckinBallRaj xxx]

Der Zivilist, on 08 July 2012 - 12:32 PM, said:

PPCs taking up multiple or "larger" hardpoints has no basis in any officially released information whatsoever. Everything the Devs have said up to this point is one weapon, one hardpoint. You can correlate this with all videos, Devblogs, Q&A's and Ask The Devs sessions published to this date. In fact, we can explicitly see an AC/20 take up the exact same hardpoint as a MG in the Mechlab preview video. There are no size differences between weapons when it comes to hardpoints.

So when Bluten says "it's a very safe bet", what he really means is either "I am completely making this up", or "I am in the beta and have unreleased information and I am breaking the NDA right now".

I suggest you look more closely at the video you are trying to reference because it contradicts what you are trying to say. It does in fact show different slot sizes. You can VERY clearly see that the AC 20 is 10 slots and the AC 5 that he switches it out for is only 4 slots. You are completely wrong and referencing material yourself that proves it at the same time. Looks more like you are the one making stuff up because the video you mentioned supports my point, not yours. Weapons simply do not have equal hardpoint slots on a Mech. They vary, and if there isn't enough space for something, then it won't fit. They haven't officially released hardpoint slot sizes, but as I said, it's a VERY safe bet that a PPC is going to be more slots than a Large Laser, just like an AC 20 is bigger than an AC 5. Not a difficult concept to grasp.

Edited by Bluten, 08 July 2012 - 12:51 PM.