50 replies to this topic

[Y E O N N E]

meteorol, on 08 October 2015 - 09:25 PM, said:

In CW there are more 4er ll 5ss than 7xMpl. Those crazy range quirks give them even more range than clan er ll while having nice heat and cooldown quirks aswell.

Yeah, it just seemed that we were comparing brawlier builds in here.

Though, tbqh, if you are going to brawl a Summoner you will probably take masses of SRMs.

[Lykaon]

DarthRevis, on 08 October 2015 - 08:45 PM, said:

This is literally no comparison...

Thud wins, hands down.

The Summoner has no where near the tank ability the thud has, is WAY bigger then the Thud or the TBR and does not have the hard points to be anywhere near as powerful dmg dealer.

Not to mention Locked equipment which is locked tonnage. The summoner really is that bad....why do you think you dont see any?

I do not see it as a hands down win.

The Summoner has one clear defficency as an Omni Mech. Low number of hardpoints.

I do not find that not having the option to be slower and less manuverable is that big of a deal.I would probably build Summoners with that degree of speed anyhow but maybe drop 2-3 jets on occation (if given the option)

The clan XL is the only hands down winner here.And that is a huge deal.

Because of the clan XL granting both speed and durability the Summoner is probably better off in a duel between the Summoner and a Thunderbolt. The Thunderbolt can't get that fast and if it does have an XL it's going down fast.

[STEF_]

Dakota1000, on 08 October 2015 - 08:41 PM, said:

stuff

Can you show me one single summoner build having 42 instant pinpoint dmg, 4.67dps (and even more with quirks, I suppose) and 40% cooling eff (and, again, even more with quirks)?

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Stefka Kerensky, on 08 October 2015 - 11:24 PM, said:

Can you show me one single summoner build having 42 instant pinpoint dmg, 4.67dps (and even more with quirks, I suppose) and 40% cooling eff (and, again, even more with quirks)?

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...e4902d869e8e522

42 point alpha, its not instant but then again neither is the thunder bolt's
dps is at 10.11, more than double what you asked. and 42% cooling, 40% if you want to swap a heat sink out for a TC.

If you are looking for pinpoint instant damage the Summoner can pull out 25 with PPC and Gauss combo on a mech prepared for poptarting.

[STEF_]

Dakota1000, on 08 October 2015 - 11:43 PM, said:

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...e4902d869e8e522

42 point alpha, its not instant but then again neither is the thunder bolt's
dps is at 10.11, more than double what you asked.

Esactly (smurfy doesn't show that, I'm lazy to do math )
That's esactly the reason why Thunder eats Summo alive.

[Y E O N N E]

Dakota1000, on 08 October 2015 - 11:43 PM, said:

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...e4902d869e8e522

42 point alpha, its not instant but then again neither is the thunder bolt's
dps is at 10.11, more than double what you asked. and 42% cooling, 40% if you want to swap a heat sink out for a TC.

If you are looking for pinpoint instant damage the Summoner can pull out 25 with PPC and Gauss combo on a mech prepared for poptarting.

Summoner's shot is going to get spread all over the Thud, while the Thud's is so fast that even good players are not going to spread it around much.

So, more realistically, the SMN is doing ~25-30 to one spot while the Thud is doing ~35-42.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Stefka Kerensky, on 08 October 2015 - 11:49 PM, said:

Esactly (smurfy doesn't show that, I'm lazy to do math )
That's esactly the reason why Thunder eats Summo alive.

What? I gave a build that was more than what you asked and because it wasn't instant damage with lasers its still bad? Thud can't get that either.

[STEF_]

Dakota1000, on 08 October 2015 - 11:52 PM, said:

What? I gave a build that was more than what you asked and because it wasn't instant damage with lasers its still bad? Thud can't get that either.

I didn't explain well, indeed.
Look at this:
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...4c3f22c7f5a9ae4

As u see, smurfy doesn't show the real dps and cooling eff. This knight is the (quite) same build of the classic thunder with 7mpl, and shows those dps and cool eff.

BUT, the thunder is waaaaaaaaaay better than smurfy show up, because of quirks.
Now, previously I asked u to show me a build that in smurfy shows those values.
The reality in matches is very different, because of quirks.

With the thunder 7mpl, I not only eat alive summoners, but Timbers too, (depending on enemy pilot, of course), when brawling.

[KinLuu]

I believe you simply fail to realize how strong the Thunderbolt 5SS really is.

Those duration quirks are a real gamechanger.

[Alistair Winter]

The quirks are the difference. Nobody cared about the Thunderbolt when it was released, but then they buffed pulse lasers and gave it superquirks.

• Both mechs have a 42 dmg alpha.
  
• Summoner gets 5% cooldown bonus
  
• Thunderbolt gets 15% cooldown bonus
  
• Thunderbolt gets 12.5% heat reduction
  
• Thunderbolt gets 12.5% duration reduction

The duration of the Thundie's MPLs is almost exactly half of the Summoner's CLPL's. The TDR also has faster cooldown compared to both CMPLs and CLPLs.

A full alpha for the TDR does 7*4 = 28 heat. Subtract 12.5% and you get 24.5 heat.
A full alpha for the SMN does 10+10+6+6= 32 heat. Subtract 5% and you get 30.4 heat.

If you compare this TDR build with your Summoner build, you'll see the TDR has 20 heatsinks compared to your 19. Looking at the basic Smurfy stats, the Summoner looks better. But when you account for the hyperquirks, the situation changes.

All in all, the Thunderbolt has better DPS and much reduced laser duration, making it a lot easier to focus damage on single components. As a bonus, only 2 of its 7 MPLs are located in the arms. Unlike the Summoner, it doesn't lose half its firepower when it loses an arm. That's kind of a big deal. It's not like the Summoner's arms are hard to hit.

The Summoner is slightly faster, it has jump jets. But those factors don't compensate for the differential in firepower. On paper, the Summoner has more durability. But having your firepower reduced by 50% when you lose an arm is not actually good durability.

Thunderbolt wins.

Fatality.

[STEF_]

Alistair Winter, on 09 October 2015 - 12:12 AM, said:

The quirks are the difference. Nobody cared about the Thunderbolt when it was released, but then they buffed pulse lasers and gave it superquirks.

• Both mechs have a 42 dmg alpha.
  
• Summoner gets 5% cooldown bonus
  
• Thunderbolt gets 15% cooldown bonus
  
• Thunderbolt gets 12.5% heat reduction
  
• Thunderbolt gets 12.5% duration reduction

The duration of the Thundie's MPLs is almost exactly half of the Summoner's CLPL's. The TDR also has faster cooldown compared to both CMPLs and CLPLs.


A full alpha for the TDR does 7*4 = 28 heat. Subtract 12.5% and you get 24.5 heat.
A full alpha for the SMN does 10+10+6+6= 32 heat. Subtract 5% and you get 30.4 heat.

If you compare this TDR build with your Summoner build, you'll see the TDR has 20 heatsinks compared to your 19. Looking at the basic Smurfy stats, the Summoner looks better. But when you account for the hyperquirks, the situation changes.

All in all, the Thunderbolt has better DPS and much reduced laser duration, making it a lot easier to focus damage on single components. As a bonus, only 2 of its 7 MPLs are located in the arms. Unlike the Summoner, it doesn't lose half its firepower when it loses an arm. That's kind of a big deal. It's not like the Summoner's arms are hard to hit.

The Summoner is slightly faster, it has jump jets. But those factors don't compensate for the differential in firepower. On paper, the Summoner has more durability. But having your firepower reduced by 50% when you lose an arm is not actually good durability.

Thunderbolt wins.

Fatality.

Thanks to explain what I was trying to explain, using my "I live in a cave" english skills

[1Grimbane]

both mechs play different but the bolt wins hands down every time

[Duke ramulots]

I run a 3 Summoner 1 kit fox drop deck and don't have a problem contributing to wins. It's incredibly fast for it's size and more maneuverable than any other heavy. Having just a few big guns fits my play style as well seeing as how I like to hit and run at range.

[Black Ivan]

Could you please posts your builds for the Summoner?

[SaltBeef]

Current Summoner in any build does not stand a chance against a halfway competent TDR pilot. Only Build worth a shiiiiist is the 2 ultra ac5 ,3 Er Med laser build and even that one stinks.

[Paigan]

Dakota1000, on 08 October 2015 - 08:41 PM, said:

I've been swapping back and fourth in CW weekly between Clan and IS, I also listen to a bunch of people saying Clans are OP and also others saying IS quirks are OP. At the moment I'm just looking to compare what some consider the best IS heavy for CW to what most consider the worst Clan heavy.
[...]

Apart from the obvious comparison result that others have already pointed out:

I'd say both statements are true.
Clans are "OP" in the sense that they have better Tech (they are MEANT to be that way. IS should compensate that in an asymmetrical way by having richer tactical options and number / tonnage / waves)
Some IS quirks are OP because of 300% DPS (I smell basic math failure from PGI when they created 50% cooldown quirks) that magically buffs lostech to be far superior than high-tech. Which is lorewise nonsense and unfairly overpowered.

Simple solution:
Let Clans have their better tech but give IS better richer tactical options to compensate it (more modules, none for clans, more artillery, none for clans, more drop tonnage/waves, etc.)

Edited by Paigan, 09 October 2015 - 02:45 AM.

[Narcissistic Martyr]

Summoner wins if it dictates the range of the match with long range clan lasers vs the MPL thunderbolt. Otherwise... not so much.

[Y E O N N E]

KinLuu, on 09 October 2015 - 12:11 AM, said:

I believe you simply fail to realize how strong the Thunderbolt 5SS really is.

Those duration quirks are a real gamechanger.

Even without the duration quirks, the Thud would wipe the floor with the Summoner because 0.6 seconds is already almost half as long as 1.12 seconds.

[Duke ramulots]

Black Ivan, on 09 October 2015 - 01:34 AM, said:

Could you please posts your builds for the Summoner?

Either SRM-6 /ERPPC/UAC-10 Or LRM-15/ERPPC/LBX-10/small laser

[Baba Yogi]

Dakota1000, on 08 October 2015 - 10:15 PM, said:

Alright, using those builds and without taking into consideration pilot skills and using a 22 ton engine in the thud to be similar to the summoner. I did my calculations under optimal range rather than 1km out due to math reasons and not wanting to calculate the dropoff. Heres what I got:

Thunderbolt (before quirks):
8 max DPS
3.28 DPS without overheating
7.11 Heat per second
59.8 Heat cap
2.98 Dissapation

Thunderbolt (after quirks)
9.2 max dps
3.28 DPS without overheating
7.11 Heat per second
59.8 Heat cap
2.98 Dissapation

Summoner (before quirks and without modules)
6.95 max dps
3.89 DPS without overheating
6.32 Heat per second
66.8 heat cap
3.68 Dissapation

Summoner (after quirks and without modules)
7.30 max dps
4.05 DPS without overheating
6.07 Heat per second
66.8 heat cap
3.68 Dissapation

Now for the armor+structure of each if they put all armor on CT front.
Summoner: 88 + 44 = 132
Thunderbolt: 84 + 42 = 126

if both pilots were firing without overheating
Summoner destroys Thunderbolt in about 31 seconds
Thunderbolt destroys Summoner in about 40 seconds

If both pilots were firing at max DPS
Summoner destroys Thunderbolt in about 17 seconds.
Thunderbolt destroys Summoner in about 14 seconds.
Thunderbolt would overheat in 14 seconds but doesn't by about 0.1 heat
Summoner would have still been under 70% heat

This comparison shows the Thunderbolt winning, but isn't quite a good comparison. As soon as the map is slightly more than heat neutral the Summoner has won due to Thunderbolt overheating. If the Thunderbolt was over 0% heat (aka running its engine) it would have also overheated before finishing the Summoner. Also in what reality would two mechs just stand still and constantly fire lasers at each other's CT without any twisting or movement.

If we were going by poking the Summoner has high manuverabilty to allow it to side peek better and jump jets to allow it to poptart. If we were going by a brawl all damage wouldn't be sent to the CT and the Thud would not kill the Summoner without overheating.

Here are the builds I used for the comparison.
Thud: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...8fa7a09fdcd6d8e
Summoner: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...f03df8bc2d5995b

EDIT: of course if we were going for DPS though there are better loadouts for it than alpha strike builds.

Summoner also has less than half impulse damage of thunderbolt which means thunderbolt will deal its damage + start twisting by the time summoner finish with his lasers = his durability is much higher. Also from experience, thunderbolts wreck face in short range so i avoid brawling with them, they also carry standard engine which is a bonus. I never felt that way with summoners. If you are not using summoner's jumpjets and clan energy weapon's range advantage then you are playing it wrong which puts these 2 mechs into different categories.