83 replies to this topic

[wanderer]

Assuming your opponent is stupid enough to stand still, of course. And doesn't see you.

That is, assuming your opponent is dumb as a bag of rocks is not a "solution to ECM".

[DivineTomatoes]

Novakaine, on 08 October 2015 - 09:01 PM, said:

Over half the enemy team with ecm mechs.
Thanks PGI I don't what I'd do without my daily dose of frustration.
I'm gonna urge the UN to declare Thursdays to be called ECM Thursday.
Not this one match but every match I played.
Rocketeers just can't get a break.
Thanks once again

Cry about ECM while using neither tag or NARC.

The only thing you should be crying about is your sheer incompetence.

[wanderer]

That's not the OP,though it's from the same match. And in any case, NARC doesn't do jack vs. overlapping ECM- which given 5-6 'Mechs with ECM, they most assuredly had.

That leaves pointing your face at your target from TAG to lock to launch all the way to hit while he point-click-cores you and turns to spread the hits you can't. TAG may let you direct-fire, but it's a massive defensive disadvantage.

[Tapdancing Kerensky]

ITT people cry about needing to stick their delicate little noses out into the open to shoot where someone else might shoot back.

[Clydewinder]

Troutmonkey, on 08 October 2015 - 09:56 PM, said:

BAP + TAG.
Or better yet don't bring LRMs

It ain't just about LRMS... it's about one team having big red "SHOOT ME" triangles floating over their heads that the other team doesnt have.

[wanderer]

DancingShade, on 09 October 2015 - 04:15 PM, said:

ITT people cry about needing to stick their delicate little noses out into the open to shoot where someone else might shoot back.

If you're using LRMs and trading fire with anything that isn't, given any reasonable level of aim, you will inevitably trade worse (your damage scatters, theirs does not) or end up outright missing (LRMs require time to lock on and have a velocity that is 1/4 that of an AC/20 round, giving targets over 400m enough time to aim, shoot and get cover before your salvo arrives) enough times that a pilot that has to depend on direct fire may as well bring something with no indirect capacity whatsoever, as it'll perform better.

Which is why you don't see LRMs and good groups mix very often. Given heavy ECM, LRMs are about as inefficient as it gets, especially since every salvo into ECM is precluded by literally putting a laser pointer on the target to warn them, followed by the usual missile warning.

[Novakaine]

Reaver2145, on 09 October 2015 - 03:39 PM, said:

Cry about ECM while using neither tag or NARC.

The only thing you should be crying about is your sheer incompetence.

Dolt don't be obtuse did not see that I was spectating.
Lol new guys.

[Madcap72]

wanderer, on 09 October 2015 - 02:45 PM, said:

Assuming your opponent is stupid enough to stand still, of course. And doesn't see you.

That is, assuming your opponent is dumb as a bag of rocks is not a "solution to ECM".

ROFL, it works fine because people ARE dumb and think their magic box will save them. LRMS give tangible and intangible benefit but the player base as a whole isn't smart enough to utilize them in a combined arms method.

[Weeny Machine]

TWIAFU, on 09 October 2015 - 04:33 AM, said:

Asking people to sacrifice 1.5t of ammo for BAP is like asking the same people to use the R or J keys, just to much work.

Easier to just complain about ECM and keep the 1.5t of ammo.

Just going to get better with Role and Information warfare.

Now you are unfair.

A lot of ECM carriers are using long range weapons and try to stay out of BAP range.
Seconldy there are ECM overlays which cancel your BAP

So it certainly isn't the be all end all.


And as the icing on the cake: for some mechs 1/1,5t for BAP is a great deal. Especially for lights

Edit: On the other hand if ECM gets changed LRMs need a change, too or you cannot do anything anymore before reading "Missile Alert"...boring and annoying as hell. Even if cover is nearby

Edited by Bush Hopper, 09 October 2015 - 11:49 PM.

[xXBagheeraXx]

DarthRevis, on 08 October 2015 - 10:11 PM, said:

The reason for Artemis is to make the cluster tighter im sure....

I have never heard that Artemis only work when you have LOS...you sure about that?

BAP isnt as much importance as TAG but both are best. LRM mechs dont want to get close anyway, TAG for faster locks, better tracking and breaking dat ECM.

Very sure, i only bring them when i have tonnage spare on 15's. Tag and beagle are a must....

They should relaly buff tag range to 1000 yards.

[Xoco]

Hi there. I'm pretty dumb with these support system thing. So let me see if I get this correct.

If I (as a brawler) carry a BAP, and Im within 1000m of enemies with ECM, then my team's LRM can get a lock.
And if there are multiple ECM, does this still work?
Does jammer ECM (in disruption mode) also allow my team to get a lock?

If BAP is an equipment, does that mean it can get destroyed (or work as crit-padder)?

Lastly, what else does a BAP do? Longer detection ranges, yes. Faster detection, I presume?

Oh, and one more. What is it supposed to be lore-wise?

[Lootee]

You have to bring BAP almost on top of the ECM to cancel it. At 1000m you won't see any effect at all. If there are multiple ECMs overlapping then at short range BAP still won't do squat.

The way it is supposed to be is BAP lets you detect shut down and hidden units (sort of like how seismic works now). ECM is supposed to nullify BAP so you don't get the benefit of wallhack.

Here's it's all ass-backwards because Paul combined ECM with stealth armor and gave it AOE and removed all the drawbacks of stealth armor (supposed to take up lots of critical slots and generate a constant 10 heat).

Out of desperation to try to balance that monstrosity he created, he started pulling stuff out of his ass. And now BAP, TAG, Narc, and PPCs all counter ECM in varying levels of effectiveness (none of that stuff is supposed to work that way).

In short: it's screwed.

Edited by Lootee, 10 October 2015 - 05:21 AM.

[Xoco]

PPC counters ECM ? How does that work?

If it is such a mess, I wouldn't mind seeing the whole thing getting redone. It would be much better for the game in the long run.

Now if only I can fit that into my build. I find that I have a pretty difficult time fitting more stuff in when I am in my preferred builds (usually AC dakka builds). But I guess it is worth a shot.

One more thing-how close do you have to be to counter ECM? So 1000m is enough, or do you actually have to be closer to the source than that?

[Lootee]

Xoco, on 10 October 2015 - 05:58 AM, said:

PPC counters ECM ? How does that work?

If it is such a mess, I wouldn't mind seeing the whole thing getting redone. It would be much better for the game in the long run.

Now if only I can fit that into my build. I find that I have a pretty difficult time fitting more stuff in when I am in my preferred builds (usually AC dakka builds). But I guess it is worth a shot.

One more thing-how close do you have to be to counter ECM? So 1000m is enough, or do you actually have to be closer to the source than that?

If you hit an ECM mech with a PPC it will disable the ECM for 5 seconds. If there is another ECM source covering that mech it is still stealthed. You have to simultaneously hit both ECM mechs with your PPC to have any effect. Real well thought out solution, right?

We've been asking for the whole thing to be redone for over two years now.

You have to get real close with a BAP to cancel out an ECM. I believe it's 180m. I know the BAP anti-ecm range is shorter than a clan streak srm launcher's range is. So less than 360m for sure. It's simpler to only put direct fire lasers & gauss rifles (which are not affected by JesusBox), or your own ECM on your mech than to try to figure out all these cobbled together ECM paulmechanics.

Most players choose the direct fire weapons only solution to circumvent ECMGuardianAngelNullSigStealthArmorJesusBox. As a result you rarely see mechs with LRMs., Whenever I play a light mech with Narc I'll disable the enemy ECM and have half the enemy team broadcasting Narc signals only to discover my team has not a single LRM launcher to take advantage of it because of the horrible hard counter ECM-LRM mechanic.

Edited by Lootee, 10 October 2015 - 06:41 AM.

[JaxRiot]

Xoco, on 10 October 2015 - 04:19 AM, said:

Hi there. I'm pretty dumb with these support system thing. So let me see if I get this correct.

If I (as a brawler) carry a BAP, and Im within 1000m of enemies with ECM, then my team's LRM can get a lock.
And if there are multiple ECM, does this still work?

BAP counters One enemy ECM within 360 meters. If the enemy ECM is 361 meters meters or more away the BAP wont do anything.

ECM has a shorter 180 meter bubble. But if two enemy ECM get within 180 meters of the BAP carrying mech, then the two ECMs will cancel out the one BAP.

EDIT here- If the one ECM being canceled by the BAP is under the bubble of another Friendly ECM, they will cancel out the one BAP even if neither ECM carrying mechs are close to the BAP carrying Mech. As long as they can stay within each others bubble. Multiple ECMs provide ECM layers to each other and their allies within range.

Xoco, on 10 October 2015 - 04:19 AM, said:

Does jammer ECM (in disruption mode) also allow my team to get a lock?

ECM is by default always in Disrupt mode. Thats the 180 meter bubble that ECM projects that hides the mech and its allies from radar and gives them a target lock on hindrance benefits.

The Counter mode (which is what I think you are referring to) is toggled by pressing J, and basicly turns the ECM into a BAP with a shorter 180 meter range that can cancel out one enemy ECM, but 2 enemy ECM in disrupt mode will cancel out the one ECM in Counter mode.

Xoco, on 10 October 2015 - 04:19 AM, said:

If BAP is an equipment, does that mean it can get destroyed (or work as crit-padder)?

Yes, BAP can be destroyed

Xoco, on 10 October 2015 - 04:19 AM, said:

Lastly, what else does a BAP do? Longer detection ranges, yes. Faster detection, I presume?

BAP increases your sensor range by 25% and Target Information by 25% (not target locks. Just the target information). It also allows the targeting of powered down mechs, and of course, counters one ECM withing its range.

Xoco, on 10 October 2015 - 04:19 AM, said:

Oh, and one more. What is it supposed to be lore-wise?

Im not exactly sure but I think it was just for information gathering. Hopefully someone more knowledgeable than I am could answer that one

Hope that helps

Cheers

Jax

Edited by JaxRiot, 10 October 2015 - 08:54 AM.

[Illya Ghost Bear]

Otto Cannon, on 08 October 2015 - 10:39 PM, said:

ECM doesn't take up a weapon hardpoint, and TAG shouldn't either. Support mechs should always carry backup weapons, and losing an energy hardpoint to TAG makes that impossible to do properly on some mechs.

BAP and TAG don't even come close to compensating for the ridiculous superpower of ECM as it is currently. Even after sacrificing 2.5 tons and a hardpoint it still makes lurms a waste of tonnage compared to any other weapon you could have brought instead.

*In best James Spader voice*

This, gentlemen, is how you win the Internet.

No two page convoluted spreadsheets to solve screwing in a lightbulb, ala Roland, or UltimatumX, etc. Simple, concise, to the point and oh so logical. Ideas like this, if pushed properly, can affect real changes. Ideas that require more explaining than Ghost Heat and a rewrite of half the game software? Not so much.

Bravo!

As for my additional, far less elegant 2cts, I would submit that when the ECM Carrier is in "disrupt", that the Carrier and it's friendly units under it's umbrella should likewise be unable to "lock-on" to targets. It won't make much if any difference in comp level play, but short of a total overhaul, LRMs won't see use there, for the most part, anyhow. But it could significantly change the flavor of the game for the rest of us mere mortals.

You want to hide behind hills hiding under ECM cloaking shields? Only dumbfire weapons for you, too, then!

Edited by Illya Arkhipova, 10 October 2015 - 08:53 AM.

[SolCrusher]

Setup a Streak Crow or a Streak Dog. Best thing is to have BAP, NARC, and a TAG. These two are the most annoying things to fight when you have an ECM mech. They can keep lock no matter the circumstances. People whine all the time about "easy" mode, but hell you're packing ECM someone needs to counter it effectively.

Edited by SolCrusher, 10 October 2015 - 09:55 AM.

[SolCrusher]

And a build Crow build.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...fb1a1098542943f

And a Dog build

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...5e1cd9ae8629c4f

Edited by SolCrusher, 10 October 2015 - 10:10 AM.

[Mad Strike]

BAP + TAG + artemis + LOOK FOR YOUR OWN LOCKS

That's how i've been able to missile boat with my only LRM mech , CATAPULT.

[Mad Strike]

SolCrusher, on 10 October 2015 - 10:06 AM, said:

And a build Crow build.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...fb1a1098542943f

And a Dog build

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...5e1cd9ae8629c4f

Well , with the incoming rebalance which will wipe out all quirks i would not suggest to spend any CBs in case you don't have those mechs.