108 replies to this topic

[Sarlic]

FupDup, on 11 October 2015 - 08:39 AM, said:

His example was actually more meaningful than an Atlas, because the Daishi has the worst agility in the game. Thus, the Daishi would by definition have a harder time against lights than any other mech...and yet in spite of that, Wintersdark is still able to make it work against lights.

The Atlas has much less firepower, but it still packs more than enough punch to take out a light and has better agility for keeping them in its firing arc.

I think you mean torso yaw. The Direwolf got a worse torso yaw angle then the Atlas. (60 versus 80) But the Atlas have a worse torso/arm pitch angle then the Direwolf. (49.2 versus 54 mastered)

But for the rest.. Lights are always pesky lil buggers!

Edited by Sarlic, 11 October 2015 - 08:56 AM.

[FupDup]

Sarlic, on 11 October 2015 - 08:54 AM, said:

I think you mean torso yaw. The Direwolf got a worse torso yaw angle then the Atlas. (60 versus 80) But the Atlas have a worse torso/arm pitch angle then the Direwolf. (49.2 versus 54 mastered)

The Daishi also turns and twists slower due to having a lower engine rating (most people don't use 300 engine in Atlas).

The pitch angle of going up and down doesn't really do much for keeping a mech in your firing arc. It helps deal with evaluation differences like shooting from above, but not for just tracking somebody trying to get around you.

Edited by FupDup, 11 October 2015 - 08:58 AM.

[Sarlic]

FupDup, on 11 October 2015 - 08:56 AM, said:

The Daishi also turns and twists slower due to having a lower engine rating (most people don't use 300 engine in Atlas).

The pitch rate of going up and down doesn't really do much for keeping a mech in your firing arc. It helps deal with evaluation differences like shooting from above, but not for just tracking somebody trying to get around you.

Correct

[zeta44]

Generally I see the atlas as the mech designed to break an enemy line, it's high armour capacity allows it to take a hit and keep pushing into an area while your teammates follow in behind you.

But in aesthetics my blood splatter paint scheme atlas is the scariest of all mechs.

[Kh0rn]

Its also how the game now functions which down the effects of a true Atlas. Allowing total customization was the worse thing they ever did. Ripping out engines and simply slapping in new ones with no regard was even worse. In the stock matches on some days that is where the Atlas becomes are real trouble. No mech matches its armor can given a good enough pilot can take out a few mechs solo before needing back up.

But regards to the mechlab its to late to fix it. They made the choice for total freedom. Not sure they can go back altho it would fix a hell of a lot of issues.

[Khobai]

Quote

Generally I see the atlas as the mech designed to break an enemy line

thats pretty much what all assaults should be. but TTK is so low in this game that assaults die as fast as any other weight class.

the first step to fixing assaults is restoring TTK back to where it needs to be. mostly by fixing the broken weapon/mech balance.

the second step is giving each weight class its own unique skill tree to emphasis the strengths and weaknesses of that weight class

[Vandul]

I pack my Atlai full of LURMS and a small laser for point defense.

[Sarlic]

Vandul, on 11 October 2015 - 01:06 PM, said:

I pack my Atlai full of LURMS and a small laser for point defense.

What about the Direwolf?

[Void Angel]

Yosharian, on 11 October 2015 - 12:47 AM, said:

You have to remember that in tabletop the Atlas is not supposed to have the same value as a Dire Wolf.

Atlas: BV(2) 1897
vs
Dire Wolf: BV(2) 2712

The Dire Wolf is roughly 50% more valuable than an Atlas. (or 150% of an Atlas' value if you like)

We need good quirks on Inner Sphere (and the weaker Clan Mechs) to bring up mechs like the Atlas to a level at which they can compete with mechs carrying the same tonnage as them.

The number 1 balance problem with the game right now is that quirks aren't being iterated intelligently and frequently enough.

Khobai, on 11 October 2015 - 04:33 AM, said:

Except this isnt tabletop. Because PGI decided to make IS vs Clan 12v12 and make it a 1:1 balance. That means a 100 ton Atlas needs to equal a 100 ton Dire Wolf. That is the only way the game can ever be balanced.

The only way the Atlas and Direwolf can be equal is if the sum of their component parts are equal.

Which means IS and Clan weapons need to be equal. CXL and ISXL need to be equal. Clan FF/ES/DHS and IS FF/ES/DHS need to be equal. Advantages/Disadvantages of battlemechs and omnimechs need to be equal. Quirks can balance some of those things to a degree, but theres a limit to how big quirks can get before they become stupidly lopsided and overpowered.

The quirk system is an interesting idea, and a fun one - but it's not really working well right now. In fact, quirks are causing balance failures. Consider the Clan energy weapons versus the Inner Sphere's: the Clans have a marginal heat efficiency disadvantage on their ER lasers (easily made up by better DHS,) while the Inner Sphere enjoys a sizable efficiency advantage with pulse lasers. The apparent intent is to make the Clans better at long range,while lending the Inner Sphere the brawling and close combat advantage. This idea is reinforced by the differences in Autocannon tech and the amazing speed with which the Thunderbolt 9S was nerfed. Sounds great - but quirks are causing major outliers in this balance paradigm...

Several Inner Sphere 'mechs are able to completely outrange any Clan Battlemech in the game. Some of these instances are intentional, like the Awesome 9M, but others likely are not: consider the Thunderbolt 5SS, Battlemaster 1S, or the Spider 5v - all of which can make use of substantial general range quirks to exceed the absolute maximum range available to Clan opponents.

Of course, there's more to balancing civilized space against the Adjective Animals, such as engine/customization balance and the ability of some omnis to mount so many tiny lasers and SRMs that they can effectively out-brawl most Inner Sphere 'mechs. The point I'm making is that quirks enable options of such power that there's reason to question whether the performance gap those quirks are designed to cover is a bit too wide.

Of course, that's why PGI is trying their new balance pass - and whether or not adding in the information warfare game systems they're talking about help balance, they're still neat ideas that should be in the game. However, the quirk system should be filling holes caused by "externalities" - hardpoing location, 'mech hitboxes - in an otherwise balanced playing field. Quirks should not be expected to support a clearly inferioir Inner Sphere tech base against the Clans.

Wintersdark, on 11 October 2015 - 08:48 AM, said:

If you choose to run an AS7 with a smaller engine, don't cry when you can't keep lights off your rear.

If a DWF can readily bring it's guns to bear against a light, then for an AS7 with a larger engine and articulated arms it's child's play.

Ayep. Only time you should even think about going for a 300 engine is a UAC/5 dakka Atlas - and I don't recommend the build.

Edited by Void Angel, 11 October 2015 - 03:02 PM.