86 replies to this topic

[SnafuSnafu]

LRMs are fine It's not out of the ordinary to get a string of 600-900 damage matches with them.

Note that I play a lot of compromised LRM builds (compromised as in I don't boat it ) (EX: Stalker M with 5x lrm 5s, 2x LL, 2x ML, 1x TAG; Warhak B with 4x C-LRM15s, 4x C-ERML/3x with 1x C-ERLL and tag. Also: BEAGLE is a must) and I find LRMs to be, atm, in a sweat spot requiring skill and planning to take full advantage of.

The current issues, IMO, are builds that repeatedly spam pinpoint accurate alphas of 50-60 + damage at very quick successions, with almost no negative side-effects and requiring very few skills to achieve decent outcomes with.

OP's quoted example is a prime example, IMO, of how easy and broken this current mechanic is, egging people to stop using non 'meta' builds such as LRMs, IMO, these 'meta' builds requires a thorough once over with the almighty nerf hammer for the betterment of the game.

Remember folks nerfs are good, it keeps the game balanced, fresh and exciting. Too much buffs + whining about nerfs = power creep, frankly a very stale and boring game comes out of this where there are no real options, thus for the betterment of the community see those folks (who whine about nerfs and gets their clannies to spam the forums with 'ima quit' because of X nerfs) with absolute contempt as they work against their very own interest.

Edited by SnafuSnafu, 11 October 2015 - 11:51 PM.

[Lykaon]

Rhavin, on 11 October 2015 - 07:16 AM, said:

If you are bombing lrms from across the map all day you are doing it wrong. LRMS are great at 200 to 400 Range because of track Time , getting a lock and fireing your missles and having them almost immediately conneCT instead of having them avoided and tracked into cover is the key to use. If you are wasting time holding a lock from across the map only to have your targets lock fall off due to los, you are not moving into a better position to support your team, you are not contributing to team success and you are wasting tonnage.

Unfortunatley this means the LONG range missiles are ineffective at long range. And this is 100% the truth.Without some solid spotting assists you will be best served using LRMs as a close support weapon.

Back in the hieght of LRM potence an LRM boat was almost always an assault chassis with Awesomes and Stalkers being favorites.These days with ECM proliferation,Radar Deprevation modules and LRM projectile damage reduction the best LRM carriers are medium mechs like Hunchback 4J or Kintaro KTO 18 because of their ability to keep pace and relocate quickly.

Honestly LRMs need a near complete redesign accompanied by a near complete redesign of info warfare and ecm.All of these effect the others in an interconnective jumble that was never addressed as an interconected system during design.

[Vellron2005]

I have recently participated in several 12-man LRM boat "fun drops".

Everyone had LRM boats or LRM mouted mechs, and all the lights and many non-lights carried BAP or TAG.

The mechs were mixed CLAN and IS...

Out of 3 consecutive group drops, we utterly crushed the opposition with descisive 12:2 and 12:3 victories, and got crushed ourselves with a 5:12 loss.

This proves that LRM's are fine when properly used.

When in solo que however, most people dont use LRM's properly, and herein lies the source of the issues.

My conclusion is that LRM's dont need buffs, nor nerfs...

What we need is a tutorial on how to effectively use LRM's, and greater rewards for scouting and spotting.

[Lykaon]

Vellron2005, on 12 October 2015 - 12:34 AM, said:

I have recently participated in several 12-man LRM boat "fun drops".

Everyone had LRM boats or LRM mouted mechs, and all the lights and many non-lights carried BAP or TAG.

The mechs were mixed CLAN and IS...

Out of 3 consecutive group drops, we utterly crushed the opposition with descisive 12:2 and 12:3 victories, and got crushed ourselves with a 5:12 loss.

This proves that LRM's are fine when properly used.

When in solo que however, most people dont use LRM's properly, and herein lies the source of the issues.

My conclusion is that LRM's dont need buffs, nor nerfs...

What we need is a tutorial on how to effectively use LRM's, and greater rewards for scouting and spotting.

What you actually proved was 12 man groups with a plan and strategy are proven effective.

Your strategy was all LRMs your plan was pile LRMs onto targets to kill them...12 people on plan = success.

You would have gotten similar results with any other weapon system save maybe flamers and machine guns.

Puggies do not "teamwork" they occationally end up shooting at the same target but it was an accident not intent. So don't even think for a second that any puggie worth their title would ever take TAG or BAP or a NARC to stick their necks out to allow some other puggies to get credit for a kill.

Puggies do not think like this.

[Black Ivan]

LRMs need skill to be used and are best used in a group environment. An LRM Mech needs a spotter or somebody to hold a target, something not many people bother to do these days. A lone LRM does not work necessarily.

[DeRazer]

Anyone ever tried counting LRMs?

I did... there's almost never as many coming out as there should be... That's the reason I never run the 20s any more..

Consider these shots from an LRM20 Zeus (none omitted - all just in the order they came out).

Edited by DeRazer, 12 October 2015 - 01:49 AM.

[Doman Hugin]

All you non-lurmers can help, while also helping yourself.

Clan / Beagle active probe: assaults mostly but some heavies have spare tonnage, this finds ECM / shutdown mechs, give you greater targeting speed / range, and gives you c-bills and match score for doing nothing but equiping one item.

TAG: Want to mount something to boost those LL to the shoulder slots, or just have too many E hardpoints for the heat output, mount this heat free phychological weapon and watch those ECM / assault mechs run for cover just by shining this little torch in their general direction. and gives you c-bills and match score if a lurmer helps you damage or kill them.

These items help YOU win matches, and gives a great boost to any lurmers that just happen to be on your team.

[Lightfoot]

adamts01, on 11 October 2015 - 09:57 PM, said:

How well does clan artemis help with moving targets if you're using LRMs as a line of sight weapon at 400-500?

You want to be directly in front of or directly behind your target, otherwise you might as well just lob them over a hill because they will hit the target's arm.

[Khobai]

DeRazer, on 12 October 2015 - 01:49 AM, said:

Anyone ever tried counting LRMs?

I did... there's almost never as many coming out as there should be... That's the reason I never run the 20s any more..

Consider these shots from an LRM20 Zeus (none omitted - all just in the order they came out).

LRM20s are bad anyway. They have really bad spread. And theyre not that efficient for tonnage/critslots.

LRM15s are way better.

[Lily from animove]

changes since dec 2014? PEOPLE were changed, the majority just realised LRM's are pointless. It just took quite long for some to understand that.

[Revis Volek]

El Bandito, on 11 October 2015 - 11:08 PM, said:

Derp was introduced way after Retention. Back when LRMs did more damage than now.

I know Radar Derp was after it because it was during modules 2.0 (i think) or some time before they added all the weapons modules (even the ones with heat).

[Poggle]

Lerming is about teamwork.

[Ex Atlas Overlord]

Poggle, on 12 October 2015 - 12:09 PM, said:

Lerming is about teamwork.

Which is why the very, very vocal minority want's them either removed, or changed so that they're just long range SSRMS.

They don't want a game in which they actually have to learn and execute teamwork.....or to learn how to defend against teamwork.

They want halo in mechs.

Edited by The Atlas Overlord, 12 October 2015 - 01:46 PM.

[Weeny Machine]

The Atlas Overlord, on 12 October 2015 - 01:45 PM, said:

Which is why the very, very vocal minority want's them either removed, or changed so that they're just long range SSRMS.

They don't want a game in which they actually have to learn and execute teamwork.....or to learn how to defend against teamwork.

They want halo in mechs.

Just because people share not your opinion you insinuate that they do not want to do teamwork?

Wow, following your logic I could say:
People who rely on LRMs...
1. are too lazy to learn to aim
2. are cowards who stand in the back
etc

You get my point?

Now as for LRMs. The lock mechanic is just too good. If the LRM carrier is no ****** (and sorry, there are quite a few of them) who fires his LRM at 700m+ then you need to be near full cover all the time. The switching of the target is so fast and easy that 2 LRM boats can easily surpress several mechs.

This crap requires ECM. An equally idiotic mechanic which combines several (future/lostech like chameleon light polarization shield and Null signature system plus Angel ECM) items in one magic super box. And sure, this is needed to preven the LRMgeddon.

Both things aren't really helping the game. But hey, if you are so hot for teamplay why don't you agree to the proposals which suggested to make TAG and NARC a requirement for the indirect fire component of the LRMs while buffing the direct fire part. Oh wait...yeah...you cannot brainlessly and easily switch targets then and surpress multiple mechs. My bad...

Edited by Bush Hopper, 12 October 2015 - 03:22 PM.

[Doman Hugin]

Bush Hopper, on 12 October 2015 - 03:18 PM, said:

Both things aren't really helping the game. But hey, if you are so hot for teamplay why don't you agree to the proposals which suggested to make TAG and NARC a requirement for the indirect fire component of the LRMs while buffing the direct fire part. Oh wait...yeah...you cannot brainlessly and easily switch targets then and surpress multiple mechs. My bad...

So a slow, large spread damage weapon can suppress multiple mechs.....

this makes me think the ones firing the LRM's aren't the problem.

[Ex Atlas Overlord]

Bush Hopper, on 12 October 2015 - 03:18 PM, said:

The switching of the target is so fast and easy that 2 LRM boats can easily surpress several mechs.

You mean like the way two ballistics dires can murder literally a third of a team without even needing to wait a full 3-6 seconds before firing?

Yeah, better nerf LRMs more.

Bush Hopper, on 12 October 2015 - 03:18 PM, said:

But hey, if you are so hot for teamplay why don't you agree to the proposals which suggested to make TAG and NARC a requirement for the indirect fire component of the LRMs while buffing the direct fire part. Oh wait...yeah...you cannot brainlessly and easily switch targets then and surpress multiple mechs. My bad...

I don't see the point of making literally every single weapon in the game direct fire.... b/c then you just use the one that's best at it... Oh I don't know... like maybe lasers.... man I feel like I've seen that happen somewhere.

Apparently every ballistics, every laser, and 2/3 of the missle systems being direct fire aren't good enough for you.... You'd like to add the only indirect firing weapon in the game to the list of weapons people don't bring when they make their laser boats too.

Me? I like games with depth and variety, that require more thought than "If I'm pointed at enemy, click".

Edited by The Atlas Overlord, 12 October 2015 - 10:31 PM.

[Kjudoon]

Lily, Lrms were made artificially useless by crybabies who cant deal with indirect fire. Happens all the time in world of warships where ALL weapons are indirect or stealthy torpedoes. Theres another rage inducer for the same crowd who want mwo to be MechHalo of Doody.

[Weeny Machine]

Doman Hugin, on 12 October 2015 - 04:02 PM, said:

So a slow, large spread damage weapon can suppress multiple mechs.....

this makes me think the ones firing the LRM's aren't the problem.

First of all thankis for taking something out of context to make yourself look good followed up by an ad hominem. Shows what kind of person you are...

Yes it can - in the absence of ECM inflation. That's the part you conveniently ignored.

The Atlas Overlord, on 12 October 2015 - 10:30 PM, said:

You mean like the way two ballistics dires can murder literally a third of a team without even needing to wait a full 3-6 seconds before firing?

Yeah, better nerf LRMs more.



I don't see the point of making literally every single weapon in the game direct fire.... b/c then you just use the one that's best at it... Oh I don't know... like maybe lasers.... man I feel like I've seen that happen somewhere.

Apparently every ballistics, every laser, and 2/3 of the missle systems being direct fire aren't good enough for you.... You'd like to add the only indirect firing weapon in the game to the list of weapons people don't bring when they make their laser boats too.

Me? I like games with depth and variety, that require more thought than "If I'm pointed at enemy, click".

Lasers: yeah sure there are no complains about lasers at all. So let’s compare them to…oh wait…

About the LRM change: no, they wouldn’t be like “any other” weapon – you still have the indirect fire component. There is just a requirement to use it. And once more: people like you should never ever complain about ECM. ECM is there to balance your LRM crap.

About your DW example: If you sit in front of 2 assaults…you do something very wrong and that is positioning. Especially 2 whales. LRMs my positioning can be good to perfect, however, one spotter is enough to have me scurry back into cover. And what people forget is that the slow flight speed works then as an advantage – you need to stay in cover till they hit your cover.

3-6 seconds before firing? Heck, what LRM boat are you driving? My Treb has ammo problems because it throws out the crap at a rate that is not funny - and that even in the days of our ECM overlords. I get relatively consistend matches with 600-1000 damage.

But hey, why argue? PGI thinks those crazy laser alphas are ok – so I think they will do jack about LRMs.

Kjudoon, on 13 October 2015 - 12:17 AM, said:

Lily, Lrms were made artificially useless by crybabies who cant deal with indirect fire. Happens all the time in world of warships where ALL weapons are indirect or stealthy torpedoes. Theres another rage inducer for the same crowd who want mwo to be MechHalo of Doody.

Yeah, such comments help the discussion. As I said above: the other side could say "always this crowd who needs an aim crutch"

Edited by Bush Hopper, 13 October 2015 - 12:55 AM.

[Doman Hugin]

Ok, Lets look at the rest of it.

Lock mechanism good, So good is able to lock indirectly, the 3-6 secs to get that lock then the flight time to hold that lock just for the first volley to land that's not so good, how many gauss / laser vomit alphas can you manage in that time.

Switching target is easy and fast..... What, it is the slowest targeting weapon in the game, at least the equivelent of a slow cooldown weapon and thats before you fire not after.

You call ECM crap, agree with you there, hate the On / Off counters, would much prefer soft counters. But it is what it is at this time so adapt, LRM's are still viable in higher tiers if you're good.

Indirct fire only with TAG or NARC does not need to happen, as it's a slow, large spread damage weapon that tells you it's on it's way, giving you the choise wether to get hit or not.

What i love about LRM's Isn't the damage nor the indirct fire, it's the sheer panic you can induce just by lobbing one volly at someone, or hitting a Hellbringer in the chest with a TAG and watching them run away. Lots of people have such an ingrained fear of the "missile incoming" warning it's just funny.

[Jon Nieve]

Hi,
Imho, LRM are not bad, it's just the other things of game, like ECM, radar deprivation (or both of them together) which makes them bad...
With ECM drops down the efficency of lrm weapons to a half. If you also face opponents with radar deprivation on all of them, then you better find another game. Radar deprivation, even without ecm, is way too powerfull. Why it make target dissapear at 0.0 seconds? It should reduce the time before losing target, not from 100% to 0% instantly. Why you can have a module that gives you only 1-1,5 more seconds of target retention but the other ones just drops down to 0 target retention.

If i equip (which I don't) advanced target decay (or however it is called) I'm 100% countered by radar deprivation module?

I think that somethings should be changed...
1) ECM should not give stealth, nor unable to lock targets. ecm should make acquire lock, take much longer. Also, making not able to lock targets well, it renders that weapon completely useless.

2) About Clan LRM, while I do prefer c-lrm because of it's tonnage, and why not to say, it looks cooler seeing that stream of missiles, from my experience of last games, I find more effective IS lrm's.
Clan lrm, being fired on stream, gives amsmore time to kill more missiles. I've been experiencing doing a lot more damage with is lrms than c-lrms ust because ams doesn't have time to kill many missiles. Make c-lrm to fire in stream like now, but shorter, I mean, instad of 1 full second (don't know how much time it takes, this is just theory)to throw all lrm's of a c-lrm20, make it to throw all missiles in 0.8 seconds? Don't know, something like that.

3) Make AMS start firing something like 10-20 meters more? This would make maybe give a chance to kill 1-2 missiles more beofre they land on target?

The way that ecm/radar deprivation/lrm work makes modules almost completey not usless but worth not taking:
- Advanced target decay
- AMS overload
- Narc enhancement

To give a few examples.