46 replies to this topic

[Spetulhu]

So what the F is up with this? I swear, 90% of deaths I suffer in Light mechs is CT destroyed with everything else looking if not fine then at least good. In the board game hits were spread out on that 2d6 table, but here it seems anyone with enough lasers can just kill in one or two alphas. No wonder there's almost always a shortage of light mechs - anyone who isn't running a Laser superspeeder is just fodder.

Not that it's much better if I pick a heavier mech. CT destroyed, game over is still by far the most common death. The only way for me to get kills and survive is to not be anywhere near the initial fight. Hey, if everyone did that there would be no fight.

[Tesunie]

Spetulhu, on 11 October 2015 - 08:32 PM, said:

So what the F is up with this? I swear, 90% of deaths I suffer in Light mechs is CT destroyed with everything else looking if not fine then at least good. In the board game hits were spread out on that 2d6 table, but here it seems anyone with enough lasers can just kill in one or two alphas. No wonder there's almost always a shortage of light mechs - anyone who isn't running a Laser superspeeder is just fodder.

Not that it's much better if I pick a heavier mech. CT destroyed, game over is still by far the most common death. The only way for me to get kills and survive is to not be anywhere near the initial fight. Hey, if everyone did that there would be no fight.

It's called "instant convergence" combined with "actual piloting aiming skill".

TT rules don't always translate over perfectly to a first person live action shooter styled game. Accuracy is one thing that did not. Instead of each weapon seeing it if hits and where it hits, we instead have all weapons fired hit the same location. This has resulted in a "rush to find the biggest alpha build in the game". Combine this problem with only Lasers having properly working hit registration (where hits you see you land actually registering damage), and it's lead farther into a laser heavy large alpha strike build.

There is a tactic to this game. Charging out into the open is not typically one of the good ones (but it does occasionally work). Typically, players poke out of cover, shoot an alpha, and then duck back into cover. Either that or, if cover is not readily available, they will instead slam an alpha into a target, then swing their torso crazily in a direction to try and have opponent's hit that side location instead of a more weakened spot. (AKA: They try to shift damage to a side torso instead of face tanking accurate shots into their CT.)


If you expected this to play out like how TT did, then any Mechwarrior video game will probably disappoint you. However, this is still typically a fun game to play (my opinion).


Any specific questions about the game, just ask. People will try to answer them.

[SnagaDance]

Twisting to spread damage is an essential skill in a Light mech. I recommend running the Training Academy scenario where you need to protect your cored CT versus enemy mechs, it really helps!!

In addition, some mechs their CT can be easier to hit (I'm looking at you my beloved Jenner) you could call them 'extremely XL-Engine friendly'. You should also always try to max the armor on your Light mech, you'll need every last point of it.

[Rogue Jedi]

Spetulhu, on 11 October 2015 - 08:32 PM, said:

So what the F is up with this? I swear, 90% of deaths I suffer in Light mechs is CT destroyed with everything else looking if not fine then at least good. In the board game hits were spread out on that 2d6 table, but here it seems anyone with enough lasers can just kill in one or two alphas. No wonder there's almost always a shortage of light mechs - anyone who isn't running a Laser superspeeder is just fodder.

Not that it's much better if I pick a heavier mech. CT destroyed, game over is still by far the most common death. The only way for me to get kills and survive is to not be anywhere near the initial fight. Hey, if everyone did that there would be no fight.

serious question do you mostly pilot Jenners, if so that is your problem, Jenners have a huge CT.

otherwise do you ever stop moving when an enemy can see you, Light Mechs are rather fragile, if you stop moving for a few seconds a Mech will line up a shot and hit you with 30+ points of damage, some Mechs mount an 80+ point alpha, a 35 ton Light can have up-to 66 total health on the front CT, but that is with no rear CT armor, and if you do this you will go down to a single hit to the rear CT from almost any Mech.

if you are moving unpredictably from cover to cover at speed it requires a lot of ether luck or skill for someone to hit your CT with enough damage to take a light down, if you know what you are doing you will rarely die to CT destruction without taking significant damage elsewhere unless you are in a Jenner.

also, a light can often kill an assault with 2-3 alpha strikes to the rear CT, any Mech can go down fast if you know its weekness

[Kjudoon]

Spetulhu, on 11 October 2015 - 08:32 PM, said:

So what the F is up with this? I swear, 90% of deaths I suffer in Light mechs is CT destroyed with everything else looking if not fine then at least good. In the board game hits were spread out on that 2d6 table, but here it seems anyone with enough lasers can just kill in one or two alphas. No wonder there's almost always a shortage of light mechs - anyone who isn't running a Laser superspeeder is just fodder.

Not that it's much better if I pick a heavier mech. CT destroyed, game over is still by far the most common death. The only way for me to get kills and survive is to not be anywhere near the initial fight. Hey, if everyone did that there would be no fight.

Best I can tell you is the same thing that I have done, or have had done to me.

1. you stood still too long and allowed
2. A big mech to tee off on you with a long range alpha of 50+ damage that can all strike the same location. This is called instant or perfect convergence.

This is caused by PGI allowing all direct fire weapons to strike the exact same point except for SRMs and LBx weapons regardless of the mech's activity.

The only way to end this is to make all grouped DF weapons spread by either cone of fire OR dynamic convergence, or some other divergent method in which all weapons cannot strike the same location without fail.

Till that is done, and there is a significant portion of influential esport supporters who will not tolerate this change, the game cannot become better or more balanced. All you can do is adapt and adopt or evacuate.

Edited by Kjudoon, 12 October 2015 - 12:51 AM.

[Prof RJ Gumby]

We could say that when in TT it was the dice roll that ensured all shots didn't go to one location, MWO makes YOU responsible for not allowing that. People will will try to alpha you right in the CT (or RT if they have more confidence in their aim). Light mechs are most fragile, but also the best in preventing the enemy from hitting what he wants. Lights in general are the most twitchy, fpsy mechs, due to them relying on speed/agility to defend themselves, not on armor.

People will core you only if you allow them. Don't allow them. Some tips for lights:

1. Don't stare.
Don't stop to shoot. Don't stare at your enemy when not shooting/reloading. Finally (this is the worst thing I did when I was a newbie, total suicide with) don't run directly at/away from the enemy. That makes you a still target from his perspective. When engaged, always move and always move sideways in respect to enemy mech's perspective. Force the enemy to turn and turn and turn, that will make him have much less time to aim precisely.

2. Speed is life.
Most people are not gods with mouse precision. Especially in this game, filled with quite a number of old timers that often aren't even gamers in general, just came here for their love to battletech. Make your light mech fast. Plus, there is some delay (or rather speed limit) to arm/torso/legs movement that makes targeting in this game a bit less easy than in an average shooter. Fast lights live longer. Lights that tend to stop to shoot or look around live shorter. When in Locust, I never stay still, even when capping I do circles around the cap zone, or zig-zag. or go forward/backward all the time. You never know is somebody is not targeting you right now.

3. Don't be predictable 1.
When you move, don't use straight lines. Going in straight lines allows your enemy to predict where you will be in a second and take a precise shot at you. When under fire, turn left/right every brief moment for no apparent reason, change direction without warning, make a half circle left, then two half circle right etc.

4. Don't be predictable 2.
If you peek, don't peek from the same place all the time. The enemy can notice you repreating yourself and he can just align crosshair in the place you peek and wait for you to do it again. People do that often. Change place you peek from often.

EDIT:
5. Torso twist. Lasers (most popular weapons now) are damage-over-time weapons. Other weapons need time to reach you. The enemy have to aim your CT for a while to do damage to it, or the projectile need to reach you. Twist your torso left/right to hide the center form the enemy. If your mech has arms, you can use them as shields.

In fact, in light you could just shake your mouse while moving and not aiming yourself. When my cicada is under fire I sometimes just shake its "head" (technically a torso, but man if it's not just a big square head) in all directions while retreating to cover, which basically makes the enemy completely unable to choose the section he wants to hit.

Edited by Prof RJ Gumby, 12 October 2015 - 02:28 AM.

[Kotzi]

Speed is life. Dont expect to facetank anything in lights. Even with the "op" ones. Even if you can, dont do it. This game doesnt have regeneration. Only fight enemys if you are superior in numbers and firepower. This counts for any mechs.

[Kjudoon]

Everything that Gumby said.

[Anunknownlurker]

Huge alphas = CT kills on lights, happens to me all the time. Only thing I've found to do is, stupid as it sounds, don't get hit but most of the time that's a matter of luck.

I mean there are mechs out there slapping >60pt alphas into us, if they hit, even if there is some splash, it's pretty much curtains for a light mech.

Edited by Jimmy DiGriz, 12 October 2015 - 04:22 AM.

[Rushin Roulette]

Also dont forget those installed Jumpjet(s) if you have any. Tapping the Jumpjet button while zig-zagging and you have incomming fire spreads the shots massively and you can change directions at a whim a lot easier.

Please note, tapping the button means just that. no more than half a second at the most on the jumpjets and more like you would do when typing a letter in a post. Anything longer and your mech changes from unpredictable movement in random directions and random jumps to an easily predictable arch with no chance of changing direction until your legs hit the ground again.

[dragnier1]

There's a challenge in tutorial : Survive with your CT kaput.

Go try it out. Torso twisting practice.

It may not help if you're using XLS engines, but at least you're attempting it.

Edited by dragnier1, 12 October 2015 - 04:29 AM.

[Tesunie]

Kjudoon, on 12 October 2015 - 12:38 AM, said:

The only way to end this is to make all grouped DF weapons spread by either cone of fire OR dynamic convergence, or some other divergent method in which all weapons cannot strike the same location without fail.

For the record, it was either HSR to let us not have to lag shield/lead our shots, or a delayed convergence. And the "skilled" players don't want any cone of fire mechanics because "it would remove skill play from the game" (they say the same for delayed convergence, even though that would increase skill, but that's a different subject).

Basically, PGI wanted to do the delayed convergence (which was originally in the game), but if you were to damage what you actually visually hit on your screen, then delayed convergence had to go away because it did not agree with the HSR system. They conflicted with each other and were not compatible. (It was nice while it lasted though, minus the lag shields and leading with lasers...)

[Koniving]

Kjudoon, on 12 October 2015 - 02:27 AM, said:

Tesunie, on 12 October 2015 - 07:52 AM, said:

The simplest solution is already in the game, it just needs to apply to first person (edit: instead of exclusively) third person. Have your weapon aim coincide with your mech's movements. That is to say have the "aim" draw from the mech's physical 3D cockpit, not from the 'cockpit' you see in first person. (For example the Spider's 3D cockpit is at the head, very high. The visual one you get in first person is located dead center of the Spider's chest with its roof stopping just below the start of the spider's head.)


(Demonstrates the difference in how weapons work in first and third person, how convergence works between the two, and gives a taste of what could happen with this concept. No text or dialog, sorry. the visual speaks for itself).

Doing this, while maintaining the actual animations instead of the dumbed down first person 'hobbling cockpit', will make it so that akin to tabletop and games like War Thunder and World of Tanks, Movement becomes a factor of aiming. Are you on an incline? Welp that affected your aim! What's this, you're RUNNING?! Bouncey bouncey bouncey goes your aim. Does your mech sway left and right, making it hard for enemies to hit your cockpit? (Battlemasters are well known for this) Well now that just means you'll want to time your shots or counter for the wobble.

Part of balancing out chassis could include things like animation adjustments -- which would have an incredibly significant meaning. For example the Commando is an incredibly smooth ride with almost no bounce at all; this would make it incredibly accurate even while running at full speed. In comparison, the incredible Arctic Cheetah with almost 3 times the hardpoints, clearly overpowered nature and identical weight bounces as if riding a jeep on rocky terrain without a suspension system.

Very simple, very straight forward. Catapult K2 would actually have a use again considering how smooth its ride is compared to other 65 tonners, even if the Catapults are walking coffins.
-----------
Another simple idea, this one requiring a little bit of extra work and a couple of buttons:

Reading about the cockpit in a few sources, there is evidently a TIC. Target Interlock Circuit.
Listen to the definition of Interlock.
"Noun: 1. a device or mechanism for connecting or coordinating the function of different components."

Target interlocking in this case refers to having the weapons converge onto the target. The pilot-controlled functions that the TIC have is to "set and reset." As in increase range, decrease range, and reset. I also quote this specific statement: "Settings can be saved per weapon cluster." Define Cluster as group, and we have the following canonized paraphrase of its three sentences into one:

"The Target Interlocking Circuit (TIC) allows a Mechwarrior to set (increase, decrease) and reset the range of (convergence!) per weapon group."

Basically, You set the convergence you want, per weapon group (so up to 6 presets) which you can also set yourself on the fly. No lag delay issues, no HSR issues, and no "I'm trying to lead a target but I'm pointing at something 3,000 meters away and it's gonna mess with my aim." Nope, none of that. Adjust the range to what you want. Set. Next group, adjust, set. Next group, adjust, set. Etc.

Skill. Plain and simple.

Edited by Koniving, 12 October 2015 - 09:20 AM.

[Tesunie]

Koniving, on 12 October 2015 - 08:53 AM, said:

-----------
Another simple idea, this one requiring a little bit of extra work and a couple of buttons:

Reading about the cockpit in a few sources, there is evidently a TIC. Target Interlock Circuit.
Listen to the definition of Interlock.
"Noun: 1. a device or mechanism for connecting or coordinating the function of different components."

Target interlocking in this case refers to having the weapons converge onto the target. The pilot-controlled functions that the TIC have is to "set and reset." As in increase range, decrease range, and reset. I also quote this specific statement: "Settings can be saved per weapon cluster." Define Cluster as group, and we have the following canonized paraphrase of its three sentences into one:

"The Target Interlocking Circuit (TIC) allows a Mechwarrior to set (increase, decrease) and reset the range of (convergence!) per weapon group."

Basically, You set the convergence you want, per weapon group (so up to 6 presets) which you can also set yourself on the fly. No lag delay issues, no HSR issues, and no "I'm trying to lead a target but I'm pointing at something 3,000 meters away and it's gonna mess with my aim." Nope, none of that. Adjust the range to what you want. Set. Next group, adjust, set. Next group, adjust, set. Etc.

Skill. Plain and simple.

Top concept, agreed with. Would give remaining stationary to shoot a reason again.

Bottom concept (left in quotes), I can see some issues with. There is a targeting computer, which should aid in that. Being a video game (and not a real cockpit), I can find a lacking of interface options to get that concept to work.

What I think would be best (for concept two if pursued) is a cross over concept someone else had.
- Your convergence would be set to the reticle for the most part. Auto-adjusting as needed. (?) Or be set at a given standard for that weapon (like, 200m convergence for med lasers, for example). (Edit: Or maybe it would adjust from the weapons "optimal" ranges automatically. Pushing the range of those med lasers outside 270? Not good convergence without a lock.)
- When you have a lock, your convergence will set to the range of the locked target, rather you have line of sight and/or the reticle is over the target or not. If your locked target moved closer, then so does your convergence. If they move farther, same thing. If you place your reticle over a target, but have something else locked, well... you will not have convergence on that target as your convergence would be on what is locked.

However, for this to work, ECM would have to get altered (oh noes. Please don't touch the OP ECM system). Radar Deprivation would probably also need a minor tweak (oh noes. Please don't touch the module, it's only a near required module on every mech).


I still think the top option you presented would be better. (And really? The cockpit we view in game is not where the cockpit is on the model!?!? That actually... explains a lot now that you mention it...)




Final Edit! I promise! Then weapons like the Gauss, AC2/AC5s and PPCs could have removed auto convergence within their minimum ranges (90m?). This means, you want to shoot close in with them, lock. (Or have the lock not even grant convergence within a weapon's minimum range!)

Edited by Tesunie, 12 October 2015 - 09:10 AM.

[Ragnahawk]

This sub forum is here so that new players can learn about the game. Hence Training Grounds/New Player Help.

If your light is being killed easily, then you are easy to kill. All you have to do is ask yourself the right questions.

[Koniving]

Tesunie, on 12 October 2015 - 09:06 AM, said:

- Your convergence would be set to the reticle for the most part. Auto-adjusting as needed. (?) Or be set at a given standard for that weapon (like, 200m convergence for med lasers, for example). (Edit: Or maybe it would adjust from the weapons "optimal" ranges automatically. Pushing the range of those med lasers outside 270? Not good convergence without a lock.)
- When you have a lock, your convergence will set to the range of the locked target, rather you have line of sight and/or the reticle is over the target or not. If your locked target moved closer, then so does your convergence. If they move farther, same thing. If you place your reticle over a target, but have something else locked, well... you will not have convergence on that target as your convergence would be on what is locked.

"StarSiege" uses this system. It seemed to work very well, unless you didn't target the enemy....

Anyway, back on subject.

Spetulhu, on 11 October 2015 - 08:32 PM, said:

I swear, 90% of deaths I suffer in Light mechs is CT destroyed with everything else looking if not fine then at least good.

Which mech are you using?
Each light has its own issues. It sounds like you're using a Jenner or Locust. I can give you a lot of mech specific help, but if I were to give generic help it might actually get you killed worse depending on the mech.

[Fobhopper]

Spetulhu, on 11 October 2015 - 08:32 PM, said:

So what the F is up with this? I swear, 90% of deaths I suffer in Light mechs is CT destroyed with everything else looking if not fine then at least good. In the board game hits were spread out on that 2d6 table, but here it seems anyone with enough lasers can just kill in one or two alphas. No wonder there's almost always a shortage of light mechs - anyone who isn't running a Laser superspeeder is just fodder.

Not that it's much better if I pick a heavier mech. CT destroyed, game over is still by far the most common death. The only way for me to get kills and survive is to not be anywhere near the initial fight. Hey, if everyone did that there would be no fight.

As someone who really sucks at piloting anything lighter than a heavy mech, I know the pain you feel. You also have to keep in mind that light mechs have about 1/3 to 1/5 the armor of any other mech out there. If you are trying to trade blows as a light mech, your going to have a bad time.

Here are my simple tips (from someone who admitedly sucks at light mechs) to help LAST through the game longer.

First up, always move. Dont stop moving. Who told you you could get stuck on the terrain, keep moving. Speed is your first and only defense, you stop moving or slow down and you are dead.

Second, dont rush the enemy team, and dont draw their attention, focus on guarding the heavies and assault mechs from other light mechs. Unless you have ECM, going anywhere near the enemy team early to mid game is just asking to be wiped out within the first few minutes of a game.

Third, most light mechs (save the spider and firestarter) have HUGE CT hit boxes (well big for light mechs), the most important thing you can do is twist your torso so you can spread the damage. Dont face someone until you can fire all your weapons. Having a stare-ing contest with anthing but another light mech is going to get you killed almost instantly.

Keep in mind that this advice will help you last longer in a match, but lets be honest, your a light mech, almost all like mechs die within the first 5 minutes of a match because of how little armor they have. If you want to live longer, pilot bigger mechs that can carry 3 to 5 times more armor.

[Not A Real RAbbi]

Spetulhu, on 11 October 2015 - 08:32 PM, said:

So what the F is up with this? I swear, 90% of deaths I suffer in Light mechs is CT destroyed with everything else looking if not fine then at least good. In the board game hits were spread out on that 2d6 table, but here it seems anyone with enough lasers can just kill in one or two alphas. No wonder there's almost always a shortage of light mechs - anyone who isn't running a Laser superspeeder is just fodder.

Not that it's much better if I pick a heavier mech. CT destroyed, game over is still by far the most common death. The only way for me to get kills and survive is to not be anywhere near the initial fight. Hey, if everyone did that there would be no fight.

Man, you said a mouthful right there.

It DOES often seem that the game favors bigger, heavier mechs. Truth be told, they still haven't figured out the whole "role warfare" thing yet. There was a public test not long ago, and will likely be more iterations of it, to work on a balance that might make that more of a thing in the future. Right now, there's just not a lot of appreciation in the public/solo queue for scouts, and the talent in indirect fire support is short thanks to the mid-range laser brawl meta.

BUT that's not the point, I suspect. Tabletop BattleTech DID accommodate well-aimed (or was it "carefully-aimed"?) shots. Consider that to be what's happening here, and they're all going after CT in most cases. Yeah. The average Tier 5 PUG is just that good, and it only gets more intense as we climb. Despite that being the most heavily-armored component of a mech, it's the path of least resistance for most kills (the exceptions being side torsos on IS mechs with XL engines, and both legs on light mechs). Stick around a while, and you'll eventually be legged out a few times.

This is what happens when you take a tabletop dice-rolling game and make it into a FPS simulator.

Word of advice: Be the hardest target out there for your enemy to hit. FAR easier said than done, I know. But it CAN be done, and it's what you should strive for. That is, WITHOUT hiding. If you're light, then SPEED is your armor. If you're heavy or assault, then RETURN FIRE is your armor. Also, spend some time in the Mechwarrior Academy with Captain Jerkwad (whoever) running the "Running Cored" exercise. More than once, I've finished out a match alive, with no CT armor and a DEEP red CT structure on my paper doll. It happens. If you don't freak out, and you remember to twist and time your return fires well, you CAN come out on top.

[Rogue Jedi]

Fobhopper in my experience at least 1 game in 5, probably more like half of games, end with the winning team trying to chase down the last light Mech, and having often been that light survivor, if the light still has most of its firepower intact against near crippled enemy Mechs it is not uncommon for the light survivor to take several of its pursuers with it.

The way to play a Light is to be unpredictable, when your big guys are almost in position hit the enemy from behind so they turn arround to swot that annoying light while your big guys come arround the corner and open up there week rear torsos, if you get lucky a few may chase after you meaning your attackers may have an advantage in numbers.

While the bulk of your team is firing at the enemy from the front shoot them in the back for an easy kill, if 300 tons of Mechs are in front of it an assualt or heavy will ignore that annoying Locust, Spider or Jenner firing at it from behind.

If it will take your team a while to get in position and you get behind a few enemy target them all so your team know they are there then hit them all with your lasers then run evasivly towards your team, if you get lucky you may be able to leed 4 enemy to your 11 allies, guess how that will end.

The tactics I have sugested will not get you a lot of kills or damage but will seriously help your team

[Not A Real RAbbi]

Rogue Jedi, on 12 October 2015 - 11:08 AM, said:

Fobhopper in my experience at least 1 game in 5, probably more like half of games, end with the winning team trying to chase down the last light Mech, and having often been that light survivor, if the light still has most of its firepower intact against near crippled enemy Mechs it is not uncommon for the light survivor to take several of its pursuers with it.

The way to play a Light is to be unpredictable, when your big guys are almost in position hit the enemy from behind so they turn arround to swot that annoying light while your big guys come arround the corner and open up there week rear torsos, if you get lucky a few may chase after you meaning your attackers may have an advantage in numbers.

While the bulk of your team is firing at the enemy from the front shoot them in the back for an easy kill, if 300 tons of Mechs are in front of it an assualt or heavy will ignore that annoying Locust, Spider or Jenner firing at it from behind.

If it will take your team a while to get in position and you get behind a few enemy target them all so your team know they are there then hit them all with your lasers then run evasivly towards your team, if you get lucky you may be able to leed 4 enemy to your 11 allies, guess how that will end.

The tactics I have sugested will not get you a lot of kills or damage but will seriously help your team

Saw that yesterday on Tourmaline Desert with SteelCore. He was last on his team, TOP DAMAGE among all players in that drop, in a LCT with a SINGLE ER LARGE LASER. We chased him for a solid 5-6 minutes, probably two laps around that map, and came up one mech fewer for our troubles. That's a rare talent right there, but one CAN learn a lot by observing the experts when they're in the zone. I believe he was open CT most of that time, too. Speed was his armor. Our fastest surviving mech was a SHC, which he could easily outrun in that rig. One IS ERLL. 579 Damage, 2 kills. Given enough time, he quite possibly COULD have won that one for his team (we were all in pretty bad shape by then). No name & shame; this is a celebration of a SUPERB performance by another mechwarrior, even if he was on the opposing team. We were taking bets whether he'd have the drop's top damage, and what that number would be, during the last couple minutes of the chase.

ANYHOO, good advice, RJ!