81 replies to this topic

[sycocys]

Titannium, on 12 October 2015 - 10:10 AM, said:

separate SOLO and groups.

People will start to play CW then.

Lol, no they wont. You guys like to blame the boogeyman of 12 man groups but the fact is no one fills the queue because the mode is god awful boring even if you get instant matches.

[sycocys]

Titannium, on 12 October 2015 - 02:48 PM, said:

groups = <5%
SOLOs here = 95% of all mwo pop.

If this is the case why does there need to be a seperate queue? 95% of the players are dropping solo and vastly out numbering the group players.

Which leads back to my last posts point.

Edited by sycocys, 13 October 2015 - 02:42 AM.

[TWIAFU]

Titannium, on 12 October 2015 - 02:48 PM, said:

OFC solos will cry, cause you destroy them stomp, but let them cry.

I agree.

Let them cry.

If they cannot use teamwork, let them cry.

If they think they are the end all be all of Mechwarriors, let them cry.

If they want to play alone in a team and group environment, let them cry.

So, keep crying because the choices YOU make.

It's funny to read.

Ace Selin, on 12 October 2015 - 04:52 PM, said:

Increase CW rewards, make holding planets be worthwhile and CW will thrive, until then well.

Beta 3 is our hope.

Then we can read the OP complain that solos cannot reap rewards from a group/unit centric game mode.

[Khereg]

Titannium, on 12 October 2015 - 02:48 PM, said:

groups = <5%
SOLOs here = 95% of all mwo pop.

Citation needed?

[Speedy Plysitkos]

sycocys, on 13 October 2015 - 02:37 AM, said:

Lol, no they wont. You guys like to blame the boogeyman of 12 man groups but the fact is no one fills the queue because the mode is god awful boring even if you get instant matches.

you are totaly wrong.

pugers are 90% of all mwo population.

use same or similar quick mm process in CW, where there will be 12 pugs ws 12 pugs. NOT 12 pug vs 12 man groups, u got that point ?
It will be same game expirience as from pug solo. the queues will be +- same.

the <10% groups i dont care. they are minority here. let them play each other (ofc they will not like it)

Edited by Titannium, 13 October 2015 - 05:23 AM.

[sycocys]

Titannium, on 13 October 2015 - 05:21 AM, said:

you are totaly wrong.

pugers are 90% of all mwo population.

use same or similar quick mm process in CW, where there will be 12 pugs ws 12 pugs. NOT 12 pug vs 12 man groups, u got that point ?
It will be same game expirience as from pug solo. the queues will be +- same.

the <10% groups i dont care. they are minority here. let them play each other (ofc they will not like it)

If pugs are 90% + of the population, then it would be extremely rare for them to run into the 1% that form 12 man groups.
Slightly more common for them to hit smaller groups that make up the other 9% of your claim, but still plenty rare.

Given that you believe that solo players make up such a large part of the player base it is completely foolish to have a separate queue for the occasional chance they'd run into a scary 12 man - and quite frankly this includes the standard drops as well, there just doesn't need to be that second bucket and the MM would perform better if there wasn't one.

It really is that simple.

Further past that - the way CW is set up, even if you went with a solo queue -most if not every one of that same scary, make you piss your pants 12 man group will be able to sync drop into the same match 80-90% of the time as solo players.

Large units or tighter factions like MS, 228, most of FRR would still make every match a 12 man, all you have to do is hop back on TS and drop into whatever comms room the rest of the team is in - instant 12 man group.

Fortunately all the solo players also have comms and text based communication to also make them an instant 12 man group - they simply refuse to use those tools or any communication/teamwork at all.

Edited by sycocys, 13 October 2015 - 05:50 AM.

[Livewyr]

So, either there is an epidemic of groups where (you think) solo's should reign, or solo's make up the overwhelming majority of the CW population and groups are a rarity.

You need to pick which scenario you're going to chase...

sycocys, on 13 October 2015 - 05:47 AM, said:

It really is that simple.

QFT

[rolly]

Titannium, on 13 October 2015 - 01:18 AM, said:

Even if you 4x prizes, nobody will play stomp. you are totaly wrong.
And as i said, there is more PUGers, then some leet noob teams who uses CW for stomping.

Why so many people deny 2 queues ? groups vs groups only and pug vs pug only ? PUGers are 90%+.
PUG queue will be filled +- same as regular solo pug.

And groups ? they can fight each other, but hey, they will cry no more stomp, but thats their-MINORITY problem.

PUG = 90% of mwo pop. so rebuild CW for them, or close CW as whole.

To add to this - The idea behind calling it "Community Warfare" is that it involves a COMMUNITY to work. Otherwise it would be renamed "L33T private PUG-stomp Warfare". It doesn't exactly have a nice ring to it. Community Warfare doesn't refer to a minority with self-interests in mind because CW is/should be designed to engage the community at large.

If it is a "boogeyman", it seems to happen quite frequently to be a spectre. Its very real and happens and I find the usual argument of using the "boogeyman" usually comes from people who regularly do dress up with their buddies as the "boogeyman" .

[rolly]

Livewyr, on 13 October 2015 - 06:13 AM, said:

So, either there is an epidemic of groups where (you think) solo's should reign, or solo's make up the overwhelming majority of the CW population and groups are a rarity.

You need to pick which scenario you're going to chase...



QFT

To be fair this shouldn't be a black and white issue. The reality is that solo's ARE the majority of entry level MWO players. It is more uncommon for a large group to join MWO en masse and immediately form a clan/guild.

[rolly]

sycocys, on 13 October 2015 - 05:47 AM, said:

If pugs are 90% + of the population, then it would be extremely rare for them to run into the 1% that form 12 man groups.
Slightly more common for them to hit smaller groups that make up the other 9% of your claim, but still plenty rare.

This is conjecture. If you hang out at dusk are you more likely to get bitten by mosquitoes? Yes absolutely, because that's where they are most active. Its not rare when it happens on average 3 out of the 4 times us casual players try to group up and roll together. This is on an average evening between 9-11pm. That isn't "plenty rare".

Really the only way to make this more concrete would be for PGI to release figures on the total game population currently PUG, in groups smaller than 12 or groups larger than 24+. I will safely bet that solo/PUGs are the larger population that want to play.

[WarHippy]

Titannium, on 12 October 2015 - 02:48 PM, said:

groups = <5%
SOLOs here = 95% of all mwo pop.

So PGI, separate it. Then people will play like regular PUG solo. simple.
OFC groups will cry, cause you destroy them stomp, but let them cry.

I play mostly solo and I don't want what you are asking for.
You are also confusing number of drops vs population.
Drops =/= population

[sycocys]

rolly, on 13 October 2015 - 06:26 AM, said:

To add to this - The idea behind calling it "Community Warfare" is that it involves a COMMUNITY to work.

It also requires 24 players that are willing to communicate and work as a team, not 24 solo rambos - and that's based 100% on the map design.

The reason solo rambos have such an incredibly hard time is that they spend so much time never learning the concept of teamwork and somehow expect that to translate into enjoyable matches in a mode that absolutely requires it.

Hell the last time I dropped CW it was with random people NOT on comms, 4 pansies disconnected when they saw a 12 man on the other side and we still killed 30 of their 48 despite playing 8v12 the entire match.

rolly, on 13 October 2015 - 06:36 AM, said:

scary 12 mans vs solo pugs that want to but refuse to play

And if this 'large' group of solo pugs actually played instead of b&m'ing about having to face scary 12 mans - guess what? They'd be facing other solo pugs instead of scary 12 mans. Seriously look at how it worked out every time there was an event that drew the solo players into the queue - 90% of the time they played small groups or other solo players.

-- Here's the fact of it. They don't actually want to play CW, they just want to complain about not wanting to play CW and put the blame on someone other than themselves.
------------
I don't play CW often. 1 game a week maybe. I love the challenge and increased difficulty/forced teamwork. I hate that the maps and modes are more boring to me than playing standard drops. I find it very bothersome that the maps in particular are designed in such a way that it forces a very limited tactical variety into the matches.

12 mans though? Pfft. Its just 12 other players a some better than me, some worse than me, most of them about the same. I've been on 12 mans that have gotten shredded by pugs and been on pug teams that shredded 12 mans - it just requires a little effort to communicate and work with your team. There's maybe a handful of teams that can be truly scary to face. That's it.

And guess what? If you show up and actually play the matches as a team with the other 11 people you drop with... even those matches end up being a lot of fun because you get a chance to kill some of the best players in the game or die trying.

Stop worrying about the f'n boogeyman if you actually think you want to play CW and f'n play CW. Have fun, get better at playing on a team and start shredding those scary teams that make you pee yourself.

Edited by sycocys, 13 October 2015 - 07:13 AM.

[WarHippy]

rolly, on 13 October 2015 - 06:30 AM, said:

To be fair this shouldn't be a black and white issue. The reality is that solo's ARE the majority of entry level MWO players. It is more uncommon for a large group to join MWO en masse and immediately form a clan/guild.

Will those new solo players that you speak of ever bother to join a Clan/Guild if you continue to punish and advocate for more punishment for people that do group up? Are we trying to make a game where everyone plays by themselves and for themselves, or are we trying to build a community of players playing together? The groups since early on have been sh*t on to the point that many have left, or just gave up and played by themselves. Everyone's goal should be to move toward playing in groups be they casual or competitive. Playing by yourself in a multiplayer game should only be a stepping stone to get to actual end game content which is what CW should be.

[Strig]

UberStuka, on 12 October 2015 - 11:05 AM, said:

this game doesn't have the population to support your idea

not to mention the group que would die off.. groups would just solo sync

Not true. Solo players mostly try CW and give up after seeing what a 12-man does to their experience (NOT fun). If "group CW is fun then why would it die off .. maybe you are worried that solo play is more fun? Imagine a game where fun was actually the intent (now imagine more people playing and paying because they are having more fun ... ).

If the "solo-sync-drop" becomes a thing then that can be addressed.

TWIAFU, on 12 October 2015 - 11:16 AM, said:

Forgotten this week that CW is made PRIMARILY for Groups and Unit play?

Solo player rambo mindset is in direct opposition to the game mode.

You complain enough as is about the solo queue filled with pugtards and now you want that same thing for CW?

Solo player only queue would defeat the intent of CW, playing in group/unit.

Solo player only queue and no participant would be able to own planets or reap rewards, just cbills and LP. So all risk and no reward.

We have a solo only queue now where all the special pilots can go and play all by themselves.

This sort of elitist crap is just one reason CW is nearly dead.

The "C" in CW means "Community" ... a community made up primarily of solo or small groups (2 man, not 12 man) playing together. The same community that backed the game and plays the game in much greater numbers than the elite units.

Solo player rambo mindset and pugtards (your terms) pay for this game. No one is saying force every Unit to play with them, in fact, with a solo-drop CW queue, you and your high-and-mighty super-serious unit-tards can play without them forever in your group only queue.

As to "Solo player only queue would defeat the intent of CW, playing in group/unit." ... no one said this was the intent of CW ... except the Units.

crustydog, on 12 October 2015 - 11:43 AM, said:

That is not to say the idea is without merit - it is simply that it is not feasible at this time.

We can increase the players now - by increasing the rewards for CW over the standard queues. Make the trial deck suffering worthwhile - that's the solution for our current difficulties. More players reduces the frequency of per match stomping overall.

Unfortunately, even with reward increases, the mode is not fun when solos are matched against groups. Not for the solos.

CW can be great for everyone.

A solo queue for CW should not impact the groups queueing for CW. All it might impact is the solo queue population (who could even just add the CW solo queue to their list of drop options as long as they have a drop-deck built).

[sycocys]

Strig, on 13 October 2015 - 07:11 AM, said:

Solo player rambo mindset and pugtards (your terms) pay for this game.

Show me the numbers on that one, because I'm pretty willing to bet that the players that actually learn how to play the game as a team spend far, far more money than the short term players that constantly get beat into the ground no matter what mode they play.

[Dawnstealer]

TWIAFU, on 12 October 2015 - 11:16 AM, said:

And here we go again....

Forgotten this week that CW is made PRIMARILY for Groups and Unit play?

Solo player rambo mindset is in direct opposition to the game mode.

You complain enough as is about the solo queue filled with pugtards and now you want that same thing for CW?

Solo player only queue would defeat the intent of CW, playing in group/unit.

Solo player only queue and no participant would be able to own planets or reap rewards, just cbills and LP. So all risk and no reward.

We have a solo only queue now where all the special pilots can go and play all by themselves.

Or for "solo" players such as myself [I have a unit I'm a part of and drop with on occasion, but we don't drop that often in CW nowadays...like most units, it seems]. But I can follow directions and I pay attention to what the pre-builts are doing. I don't rambo up, I don't try to win the game by myself, I don't hide in a corner.

I find I actually have some of my best games when operating as the Pugger in someone else's group drop.

[Repasy Cooper]

A pointless venture, to say the least. These are the kinds of ideas that kill games, they are supported by no facts, just vague ideas from a select few disgruntled players. Splitting the queue wouldn't even come close to fixing the issue at hand. As others have stated, there are other ways to drop together. This is surely why PGI didn't split solos from the start, it conflicts with the entire model of CW. Not to mention, the C stands for Community, so why would they encourage solo drop in a community gamemode?

[Khereg]

Skilled units are definitely a barrier to entry in CW, especially when the overall population is small and the odds of encountering one as a pug are therefore larger. However, it's also true that the solution is a Catch-22 of, "if more pugs played they wouldn't run into nearly as many skilled unit opponents, but they won't play b/c they keep running into skilled unit opponents".

Events tend to break the feedback loop b/c there's an extra incentive for pugs to jump in and put up with the units but once the event ends they drop out again and it's back to the status quo.

In my unit we've tried (and continue to try) to teach pugs how to perform better in CW, but we encounter a lot of resistance to our suggestions. Some do learn, but not nearly enough to make a substantial difference. Very few people want to eat their vegetables or go to the gym, it seems.

But back to the original point of this thread: there simply isn't enough population in CW to support separate solo and group queue. Ironically, if the population were large enough to even consider the idea, the need would likely evaporate b/c the majority of additional players would likely be pugs and the "get stomped 5 matches in a row" phenomena would diminish.

I do have to say one thing, though... I can see that losing consistently is not fun. I've been there. The first year I played this game I was not good. Seriously, NOT GOOD. However, if the response to losing is to demand that PGI change the rules so everyone gets to win 50% of the time, this will stop being an actual game and start being 3-year old soccer where no one keeps score. If that day comes, I will have better things to do and will bid you all a fond adieu.

The 40 year old dad in me really wants to say, "suck it up and get better" (in 72 point, all cap, bold, flashing font), but I know there's a whole lot of people out there who just don't see life that way and want to be handed their trophy. More's the pity.

Edited by Khereg, 13 October 2015 - 08:25 AM.

[Aresye]

So many solo players are dropping in nothing but trial mechs for CW.

I think there's this misconception going around about CW that it's better for CBills/XP, etc, and lots of brand new players with no mechs of their own are going in there hoping to grind CBills quicker.

If a player is playing at least a few hours each day for 2-3 weeks, they should be able to afford enough mechs to fill out their own CW dropdeck, and at least have Basic Skills unlocked. A new player coming in with 4 mechs that they OWN goes a long way towards ensuring better games, both for them and their team, even in the face of a 12man.

Another problem I think is happening (note: just theory crafting here), is that most of the sub-100 damage solo players in trial mechs, probably didn't even WANT to do CW!

Think about it:
1. Brand new player loads up the game.
2. While checking out the UI, brand new player notices the "Faction" tab.
3. Player checks out the different write-ups for the different factions and picks whichever one they like the most/which banner is coolest.
4. New player is confused by contract lengths, so they just pick something random, or go permanent.
5. While browsing through the store/mechlab, or checking out different mechs, new player gets a notification saying, "X is under attack! Click here to accept."
6. Player goes, "Oh cool! A game!" and clicks to accept the call to arms.
7. New player is assigned the default trial mech drop deck, gets locked into the lobby, and drops against an organized group.

I can't speak for the brand new players that haven't played MWO before, but it's not too far of a stretch to say that this kind of scenario probably DOES happen, and it probably happens OFTEN.

[rolly]

sycocys, on 13 October 2015 - 06:51 AM, said:

-- Here's the fact of it. They don't actually want to play CW, they just want to complain about not wanting to play CW and put the blame on someone other than themselves.
...
Stop worrying about the f'n boogeyman if you actually think you want to play CW and f'n play CW. Have fun, get better at playing on a team and start shredding those scary teams that make you pee yourself.

This unequivocally is NOT a fact. You have no basis for it, nor do you have any evidence or statistics to support it.
Furthermore you are debasing this constructive argument with the a simple "L2P" bias response. You can do better. The only fact you have agreed upon is that people are playing this for fun. A portion of it are not.

Regardless of how much "better" I or any other is at player as a team player, how often have you seen a stranger work well with a complete and utter stranger ? Much less one that speaks the language?

You have 12 people "trying" to coordinate against 6-8-10-12 (between 1/2 to 2/3rds of a team) that all are use to each others play styles, mechs, loadouts and have clear command and organization. This is a factual human social behaviour.