572 replies to this topic

[anonymous161]

Welp...I'm done with this game...again. Clans are a joke and why they bothered calling them clans when they play in no way like clans is beyond me, they got hundreds of dollars out of me congrats but I wont be bothering with this anymore. This game still plays like early beta and I'm done.

No more nerfing for me just wont play it.

[Pihoqahiak]

drunkblackstar, on 14 October 2015 - 01:53 AM, said:

Personally I don't care at all. All those changes are meaningless.
Ok, there will be a new meta: maybe not a laser vomit, but gauss ppc again, maybe not a stormcrow but some trebuchet or whatever. So whats the point? To change A for B? To make more "fog of war"? Does it really bothers someone?
All those changes are flat, its only a surface.
And this game still HAS NO STORY, NO BACKGROUND FOR FIGHTING, NO GOALS, CW IS DESERT etc. And the worst of all - it won't change ever.

All very true, and one of the worst facts from all that is the enormous amount of resources they put into making and testing these changes instead of actually adding content that this game is in dire need of. These are very fundamental changes to the core gameplay being made this far into the release of the game, while still having no real content added in a year. Mechs and a map here and there only string people along so long, and for many, that string came to it's frayed end a while ago.

[latinisator]

Jack Shayu Walker, on 14 October 2015 - 08:34 AM, said:

Hurt's Nova's more :c

Nah, we got dis:

Novarine

Edited by latinisator, 14 October 2015 - 08:56 AM.

[Sug]

There are some truly awful ideas in this thread.

[Jack Shayu Walker]

latinisator, on 14 October 2015 - 08:56 AM, said:

Nah, we got dis:

Novarine

:'c

[grayson marik]

grayson marik, on 14 October 2015 - 06:41 AM, said:

Nah, the thing is: They try yet another number crunching run and an illogic ghost damage system, after they already did quirks, ghost heat, double heat sinks with 1.4 value, Gauss rifle with a load up phase and so on and so forth.

And by doing so, they leave lore and useful mechanics aside, that would work much much better.

- like a true BV system, to balance the mechs for fair drops. because tonnage is BS as a drop limiting tool.
- like a real heat scale with effects on weapon function, ammo explosions, mobility of mech, pilot effects ...
- like a small cone of fire, when firing on unlocked targets - that would be much more intuitive that this ghost damage stuff.

by now MWO has so many arbitrary BS hidden rules...

It is simply sad to see them leaving perfectly reasonable tools Battletech and Mechwarrior titles used for decades aside and then come out with such ( sorry ) UTTER BS.

Shredhead, on 14 October 2015 - 06:51 AM, said:

Except none of the things you listed were ever used in a single Mechwarrior game. And go away with that ammo explosion BS, this game would become laser and Gauss only otherwise.

Hmm I remember heat effects from MW 2 Mercs, MW 3 and MW4.
I can even remember cone of fire used by so many games already - it is not really important that it may not have been an MW title... important is, that it actually works and is tested and used to all extend throughout gaming industry.
It's a system that is both intuitive and widely accepted by players around the world.

And BV has balanced Battletech related games for ages and not only BT games.

The simple truth, that some Mechs are better than others and some weapons are better than others simply demands a BV like system for balance.

The only other solution is to put all weapons to same range and damage and with unlimited ammo. And then make all Mechs same Armor, Speed etc etc.

Sometimes, accepting the simple truth saves you years of programming and weeks of s.h.i.t-storms....

Edited by grayson marik, 14 October 2015 - 09:14 AM.

[SaltBeef]

Ecm change = good
Clan lasers nerf = bad. ER means Earlier Research,
IS Heatsinks= good now you can laserface even better to that Shutdown steaming Clanner. What is override?? Overheating never Heard of it.
Clan Heatsinks= bad Fraction better dissipation but you will overheat faster on a already too frighin hot chassis.
Target lock = good that more people press R Key , bad lasers damage reduced on ecm block.R key pressing should have been encouraged by a C-bill or XP bonus.
Clan ballistics will still be worse than IS = bad so expect to get owned while your lasers cool.
Info tech= good if balanced equally across the board and No faction favoritism.
Locked components= what is the point now , little to no range advantage, higher heat, higher duration, crappier ballistics, less impulse shake from Clan weapons.

Edited by SaltBeef, 14 October 2015 - 09:35 AM.

[Nephoros Sradac]

Sug, on 14 October 2015 - 08:58 AM, said:

There are some truly awful ideas in this thread.

Yep mainly put into place by PGI in the OP

[Jack Shayu Walker]

grayson marik, on 14 October 2015 - 09:13 AM, said:

The simple truth, that some Mechs are better than others and some weapons are better than others simply demands a BV like system for balance.

The only other solution is to put all weapons to same range and damage and with unlimited ammo. And then make all Mechs same Armor, Speed etc etc.

Sometimes, accepting the simple truth saves you years of programming and weeks of s.h.i.t-storms....

This is a logical fallacy and a false dilemma. A BV system and making all mechs the same are not the only solutions, that is simply not true. The reality of the situation is more complicated then that, as it often is. The truth is rarely simple.

There are ways to balance clan and IS so that they are different but equal. The problem is that PGI isn't doing the best job of a achieving that end; mind you they aren't doing a bad job, just not the best. One of their problems is they are reserved when it comes to taking direct suggestions from the players. Many great suggestions for weapon balance have been thrown around the forums, but have been largely ignored.

[Jody Von Jedi]

The one change that really has me stumped is the reduced laser damage if the enemy mech is not targeted?

Humanoid Assault mechs, Atlas and Victor for example, can fight 2 enemies at once. one with torso mounted weapons and another with arm mounted weapons very effectively. Are these mechs going to be penalized for not having both mechs targeted at the same time (which is impossible given the technology)?

Or maybe this is just for science? PGI needs to track the data just for the PTS by means of a targeted enemy mech? And this is their way to make the tracking easier?

Edited by Jody Von Jedi, 14 October 2015 - 09:27 AM.

[Mazzyplz]

grayson marik, on 14 October 2015 - 09:13 AM, said:

The simple truth, that some Mechs are better than others and some weapons are better than others simply demands a BV like system for balance.

The only other solution is to put all weapons to same range and damage and with unlimited ammo. And then make all Mechs same Armor, Speed etc etc.

Sometimes, accepting the simple truth saves you years of programming and weeks of s.h.i.t-storms....

the only other solution?
far from it.

if quirks were done right in the first place, they would have just added durability to mechs like AWS to make them as durable as the other assaults for instance.

instead what pgi chose to do was overquirk the dragon's ac5 and the tdr's erppc, and the stalker range... ETC-
now they are coming out and admitting it was a complete blunder what they did there.

which doesn't surprise many players who told them what the outcome would be as it happened in real time
don't believe me?
http://mwomercs.com/...-from-mwo-then/
http://mwomercs.com/...lt-k2-obsolete/
just two of the many threads made back then, in early january; decrying that instead of using quirks to do what they would say they would do [(make awesome and catapult better - was just a flat out lie; the original intent for quirks when they were first even announced was to help the awesome, but they soon forgot about that, you need citation for this as well? HERE http://mwomercs.com/...pilot-it-again/ - from a year ago - as you can tell it only took them 4-5 months to relegate the awesome once again into obsoletion; the awesome, catapult, quickdraw and trebuchet are as bad if not worse than they were back then)] they were using the quirks to push new mechs and to introduce more and more power creep

like in the other posts when people realize quirks getting out of control.
we said NOOO PGI STAHP!
what did pgi do? overquirk the next 10 mechs



doesn't mean quirks are a bad idea, the tool was used in the wrong way to the wrong end. (power creep)

==========================================================================
you don't need perfect direct balance.

you could make clan mechs have tunnel vision;
i made a case for that here
http://mwomercs.com/...clan-rebalance/
http://mwomercs.com/...lance-modifier/


this is called indirect balancing. there are many other ways to achieve indirect balancing; it is how the zerg, the terran and the protoss are balanced in blizzard's game starcraft. INDIRECTLY

so no... making every mech the same is far from the only other option

Jack Shayu Walker, on 14 October 2015 - 09:24 AM, said:

This is a logical fallacy and a false dilemma. A BV system and making all mechs the same are not the only solutions, that is simply not true. The reality of the situation is more complicated then that, as it often is. The truth is rarely simple.

indeed, i like to call it false dichotomy, but false dilemma is the other term for it

Edited by Mazzyplz, 14 October 2015 - 12:06 PM.

[Coralld]

Jack Shayu Walker, on 14 October 2015 - 07:58 AM, said:

Okay, thank you. I understand where the confusion is stemming from now.

What I mean by "Max range is not the same as falloff damage. Max range is the max range," is that Max range is not the 200m of extra range past the optimal range. The 200m past the optimal range is the dropoff range. Max range is the total 400 meter maximum range. If the Max range is getting reduced to 60% then that 400m becomes 240m.

Now I assume that in either case the optimal range will stay the same, so even if the max range is referring to the full 400 meters getting reduced to 240m, the optimal range will stay fixed at 200m. In other words, my literal interpretation of what PGI is saying is that 200m will stay the optimal range and 240m will become the max range. Again I am discussing clan small lasers; it seems some people are getting confused and thinking I am talking about mediums.

I am hoping PGI is meaning to say that the extra 200 meters past the optimal range, the drop-off range, is getting a cut, which will leave the ERSmalls at 320m max range, but I do not have faith that that is the case.

"reduced TO 60%" and "reduced BY 40%" mean the same thing; if I said "reduced BY 60%" then that was a typo.

I think they mean drop-off range. And if that is indeed the case people REALLY need to calm down.

It would probably help everyone for PGI to clarify what they mean.

[Jack Shayu Walker]

Mazzyplz, on 14 October 2015 - 09:27 AM, said:

the only other solution?
far from it.

if quirks were done right in the first place, they would have just added durability to mechs like AWS to make them as durable as the other assaults for instance.

instead what pgi chose to do was overquirk the dragon's ac5 and the tdr's erppc, and the stalker range... ETC-
now they are coming out and admitting it was a complete blunder what they did there.

(which doesn't surprise many players who told them what the outcome would be as it happened in real time)

doesn't mean quirks are a bad idea, the tool was used in the wrong way to the wrong end. (power creep)


you don't need perfect direct balance.

you could make clan mechs have tunnel vision;
i made a case for that here

http://mwomercs.com/...clan-rebalance/

this is called indirect balancing. there are many other ways to achieve indirect balancing; it is how the zerg, the terran and the protoss are balanced in blizzard's game starcraft. INDIRECTLY

so no... making every mech the same is far from the only other option





indeed, i like to call it false dichotomy, but false dilemma is the other term for it

I like your idea, so long as the pred vision is still a toggle effect, and so long as it's designed well. If only PGI listened to complex suggestions like this. Hell, even if they did take notice of this, they'd probably try to do it there own way and it'd ruin the point of the concept in the first place.

[Cementi]

I could be wrong but I think the clan ranges are not as bad as people think. Will still give the optimum range edge to clans while giving the max range edge to is.

IS ERL is 675/1350
C ERL is 740/1480 currently
C ERL is 740/888 as they wrote it with a 40% nerf to max but I think their wording was unclear what it actually is
C ERL is 740/1184

I think what they meant is to not take 40% off of the 1480 but take 40% off of the 740 that was added to the base 740. I could be wrong and will not know till i get into the test server. IF I am correct this is not as horrible a nerf as it could be. Gives each tech an edge and Clans can soften the nerf with targeting computers that IS cannot.

[Jack Shayu Walker]

I think PGIs issue with player suggestions is this: They do not have faith that any of us know what we are talking about, and for that reason they don't want to invest time and resources into our ideas unless they are 90% sure they will work. Some of us could make them 90% sure if they would read our long posts explaining our ideas, but the community outreach department hardly reads the forums in the first place and they sure as hell arn't going to read something several pages long, let alone pass it on to the dev team.

For that reason we are stuck leaving simple comments each time PGI scratches their head and tries a spontaneous new change. "I like" or "I don't like" is typically all they hear outside of town halls. That's all that really gets through to them unfortunately.

[Serpentbane]

I don't like the direction this game is taking...

When this pass is done, why not try something like this.
http://mwomercs.com/...-down-the-road/

Key words:
- Several drops per match, based on tonnage and mech efficiency points.
- Asymetric drop numbers based on tonnage and efficiency.
- New game mode combining Assault with Conquest.
- Conquest cap points can be used as LZ’s for in game drops.
- New methods for targeting and target sharing, including advanced sensors.

And so on. It’s some text, but do a read up. If the game is about to receive larger changes anyways, I think this is where PGI should start to make the Mech Sim we should have, not the Mech arcade shooter we are about to get.

[Pihoqahiak]

Grayson Sortek, on 14 October 2015 - 08:31 AM, said:

Looks like I'll be dusting off some of my old bots that stopped "being meta" a while ago since I won't get murdered in them anymore. Hey, what do I care? I didn't bust my ass to get to Tier 1. So this doesn't have as big of an impact on me as it does someone like you. I'm guessing that in order to stay in Tier 1 you are going to have to completely adjust your load outs and tactics... Meaning you'll be spending c-bills and possibly some RL $ to keep up. That really sucks man.

Balance changes tend to affect anyone in the highest tier less than the lower tiers. Players in the highest tier are the ones that are able to recognize and utilize the more efficient builds, tactics and strategies. This leads to balance changes widening the gap between tiers for at least a good amount of time afterwards before settling back to the status quo that was in place before the changes.

Also, the highest tier players make considerably more per match, and almost assuredly play more than most lower tier players, so they have amassed a much larger amount of c-bills. The cost to buy and build anything they need to adjust to the balance changes will affect them far less than for most lower tier players to do the same.

Edited by Pihoqahiak, 14 October 2015 - 09:58 AM.

[Felicitatem Parco]

I like how Angel ECM is being removed from the game, and Guardian ECM is being put in as a replacement.

This will be interesting.

[Cementi]

Clan ERL with a MK VII targeting computer would be 795.5/1272.8 if I am correct in how I think they implemented the range nerf.

Maybe with the max range nerf the increased ranges on the targeting computers should be looked at. I know that the real benefiets to the targeting computers are not the range but does anyone use more than a MK I with the current values. With this nerf if they gave some decent range perks to the targeting computer maybe some players would be willing to lower their alpha strike to put on a MK VII if it allowed them to get that range advantage back.

[Overbuilt]

this seems a bit backwards.... Clan techs are getting dumber the longer they stay within the Inner Sphere instead of I.S. techs getting smarter? There should be an unbalance until the timeline catches up and it should be I.S. buffs bringing them closer to clan tech not the other way around.