572 replies to this topic

[Gentleman Reaper]

My thoughts on this:

General balance:

Clan laser nerf:
A good start, although like the others said (unless it was clarified earlier) I hope the nerf is optimal+(optimal*0.6) which is fine. Although small lasers should be kept untouched as it would make them a more viable weapon now.

ECM nerf:
This has been long overdue. It great that it no longer prevents lock-ons, although I'm curious if that mixed with the 50% range reduction is a bit too much. We'll see how it fares in the PTS, but if it's too much then maybe 120m instead of 90?

Heat sink changes:
I'm not sure if IS DHS needed a buff, as I feel it would encourage more laser boating which isn't needed for either side. As for clan DHS's nerf, I'm on the fence about this, I think it should have a nerf but instead of a 1.2 heat capacity maybe a 1.3 or 1.35? Although the cooling rate buff might mitigate the loss. As for the SHS buff, I'm totally on board with this, although I'm not sure if they should be buffed to the point where they're worth using over DHSs (as they're simply inferior technology).

Information warfare changes:

Hitmarker changes:
As it should be, this means less using missiles and lasers to find people behind cover or visual obstructions.


Laser lock-on damage:
Love this change, as it eliminates one of my biggest worries about info warfare in general, that laser boats can simply alpha someone they can't target at a distance.

Scan range changes:
Absolutely love this change, as it makes lighter mechs suit their scouting roles while also improving their survival rates. Heavier mechs, on the other hand, would have to rely more on scout mechs and positioning to have the full effect of their heavier and/or numerous weapons.This also leads to the interesting conclusion that light and medium mech laser snipers and LRM platforms will be significantly more viable as they can get the full effect of their weapons against long range targets without worrying about retaliation from heavier mechs.

Target acquisition range:
This is also a change that places greater emphasis on specific roles. Scout mechs have fast acquisition at all ranges, brawlers have fast acquisition at close range, allowing them to get that crucial crippling shot on a mech rounding a corner before it can trade blows, and support mechs have a hard time facing close range mechs should they close the distance.

Info sharing bonuses:
Also loving this change, as it would encourage some mechs to get closer to a target to get more effective support fire. One thing I'm curious about is if this is a buff to base acquisition time should the requirements be met and/or a nerf if they aren't.

Personal ideas on future changes:

Balance changes:

Autocannons:
I think a flat increase in projectile velocity would make ACs much more competitive against the pinpoint precise lasers, they're simply a pain to get a precise shot against moving targets, especially at longer ranges.

LBXs:
Simply decrease base spread, they should be somewhat effective against targets at medium range, right now they're simply useless compared to the autocannons, except maybe on the CN9-D, although in the PTS it wouldn't have its quirks anyway.

Ultra Autocannons:
I know I'm not the only one in saying that I hate how the system works right now. Whether you kill your target or you die from him based on chance is not something that should be in a competitive game. I have three ideas on how it should be implemented.

1) Double firing triggers a cooldown before you can double fire again (this would be easy to implement)

2) Double firing builds up a meter that, should it fill up completely, jams your gun.

3) Double firing leads to a longer rechamber time for the next shot (this would be the simplest and most straightforward option)

This would make Ultras predictable in how they behave as well as making double firing a more strategic choice, as opposed to spamming it until it jams.

LRMs:
Something worth considering if LRM performance decreases because of sensor changes is simply increasing damage, probably along the lines of 1.1 per missile, or increasing their velocity.

SRMs:
Like the LBXs, decrease the spread so that they're more consistent weapons at close range, with the clan versions having more spread to balance being half the weight and more range than their IS counterparts

Beagle active probe:
With ECMs no longer blocking weapon locks, BAPs lose pretty much the only reason people equip them. I propose 3 options:

1) A greater range buff, this would make the 1.5 tons, a significant amount in a light mech, worth it for providing a large boost to their already massive sensor range, while also making it a worthwhile investment for heavier mechs that want to restore the sensor range they lost with the PTS changes.

2) BAP spots anyone within direct sight of the mech within its radius, allowing the mech to reveal targets behind or beside it. This might further reduce the worth of the seismic sensor, but it'll still warn you of targets behind objects, maybe buff it?

3) BAP warns you that you are being targeted by another mech within its range, while pointing in its general location.

Command console:
Like others are saying it feels like an overweight and underpowered targeting computer. My proposal for it is make it have an effect bubble that boosts the sensor range and target acquisition of all mechs within it, making the 3 tons worth it for a coordinated team.

Targeting computer:
The main issue with them right now is that it's not worth using anything over the Mk1. Reduce the effectiveness of the Mk1 and/or give greater and greater bonuses with each version, with the Mk7 providing insane bonuses to weapons and sensors (i mean we're talking about a massive 7 tons that could go to more weapons and/or heat sinks, it should be worth it).

Edited by Elit3 Nick, 14 October 2015 - 11:33 AM.

[Luscious Dan]

Tarogato, on 14 October 2015 - 10:21 AM, said:

I really with PGI would increase Clan laser duration instead of fudging around with the range values. Increasing the burn duration would make Clan lasers harder to use, less pinpoint, and in general reduce their effectiveness as a whole, without taking away the thing that makes them unique: the extra range they get over IS.

This whole "60% of maximum range" thing is just confusing - it's a nightmare for new player experience, it's not straightforward, and it's hard to calculate in your head in real time. Just... please. Play with laser durations first and see how that pans out - it's a much more natural way to affect balance and adds depth.

It's actually more confusing for old players than new ones. Old players expect the 405/810 values. New players would simply see the 405/648 in mechlab and take it as-is.

My recommendation for clearing up the issue is to simply add the maximum range to the HUD. If the HUD displayed both the optimum and maximum ranges (including quirks, modules, etc.) then there would be no guesswork or mental math required. Perhaps include the max range in brackets, or in a darker font so you can tell them apart?

[Felicitatem Parco]

Won't the PTS mechlab show the damage decay curves for lasers? So... Let's look once it goes live, and comment after that.

[Sevronis]

ECM

• ECM radius has been decreased to 90m (down from 180m).
  
• ECM no longer prevents lock-on for 'Mechs within the radius. It only delays the amount of time it takes to achieve lock-on by 3 seconds.
  
• The target-lock delay provided from ECM can still be overridden by TAG, NARC, BAP, PPC's, and ECM suites set to 'Counter' mode.

Liking this change. Sure LRMs will still have a harder time locking onto ECM protected mechs, but at least they WILL be able to lock on without the initial help of TAG, UAV, NARC, etc. Those that have said this hurts the LRMs, it really doesn't since currently in the live environment, if the enemy has a lot of ECM coverage, and you boated or had at least 1 LRM, your entire LRM loadout was useless until the other above factors to cancel the ECM came into play.

Equipment and Weaponry

Equipment/Weapon Health

• The Health of all Equipment and Weapons has been increased to 15 (up from 10).

Overall, pretty helpful, though it still won't do much againt the players who constantly alpha strike.

Inner Sphere Single Heat Sinks

• Chassis-equipped Single Heat Sink cooling rate increased to 1.1 (up from 1).
  
• Engine-equipped Single Heat Sink cooling rate increased to 1.1 (up from 1).
  
• Chassis-equipped Single Heat Sink heat capacity increased to 1.1 (up from 1).

Inner Sphere Double Heat Sinks

• Chassis-equipped Double Heat Sink heat capacity increased to 1.5 (up from 1.4).

Clan Double Heat Sinks

• Chassis-equipped Clan Double Heat Sink cooling rate increased to 0.15 (up from 0.14).
  
• Chassis-equipped Clan Double Heat Sink heat capacity decreased to 1.2 (down from 1.4)

Slightly better IS heatsinks is always good. Though I guess I didn't recall Clan heatsinks having such a much lower cooling rate. That explains a lot. Clan mechs overheat pretty quickly even in live right now. Honestly I don't think the capacity should've changed at all.

Clan Laser Maximum Ranges

• Maximum Ranges for all Clan Lasers have been reduced by 40%.

Seems to be a lot on paper, but it's not a decrease to max damage range, just the max range where it drops to 0 damage. I may be okay with this.

Targeting Mechanics

Weapon and targeting reticle mechanics when target is not locked

• The targeting reticle will no longer flash when a hit is detected on a ‘Mech that is not target-locked.
  
• Lasers will not do full damage when striking a ‘Mech that is not target-locked from a range greater than 60% of the Laser’s Maximum Range.

Seems this is being done to help promote players to actually press that 'R' key (or whichever you keybound to it) to lock on. Honestly, players should have been doing this anyway, but I know some didn't bother. However, will still DO the damage, just won't be able to tell if you hit or not without a lock.

Reticle mechanics when target is locked

• The targeting reticle will now change color and shape when a hit is detected on a ‘Mech that is target-locked.

I didn't have a problem seeing the reticle turn red when a hit was struck, but changing shape will just make it easier to see.

Sensor Range
All ‘Mechs start with a baseline Sensor Range of 500m. Through the application of Sensor Range Quirks on a per-variant basis, individual variants can receive an increase to their baseline Sensor Range.
Post-Quirk Sensor Ranges will generally fall into the value regions listed below, according to weight class:

• Light ‘Mechs: ~900m Sensor Range.
  
• Medium ‘Mechs: ~800m Sensor Range.
  
• Heavy ‘Mechs: ~700-750m Sensor Range.
  
• Assault ‘Mechs: ~500-650m Sensor Range.

While this will hurt a larger mech's ability to target with LOS on their own at longer ranges, but should hopefully promote target spotting even more. While a light on their own will be able to use LRMs for example at longer ranges, an assault still could do the same as long as someone else is able to lock on target and share that data.

Target Acquisition Rate

• The Target Acquisition Rate for all ‘Mechs during this test phase is 0 seconds.
  
• Target Acquisition Rate can be quirked on a per-variant level, but there are no Target Acquisition Rate Quirks in place for this test phase.
  
• Target Acquisition Rates are affected by ECM.
  
• The Target Acquisition Delay caused by ECM for all ‘Mechs during this test phase is 3 seconds.

With the change to ECM, a 3 second added delay to locking on is still better than not being able to lock on at all. Plus this means you won't have to use up an energy slot on a tag, or missle on a narc. Although doing so will still be helpful, just doesn't have to be a requirement for each mech using LRMs like it is now - just maybe one or two as using either would still require you to have the target in LOS, which puts a dedicated LRM support in harm's way. If you can see them to tag, they can also see you to shoot back.

Target Information Sharing

• Target information sharing is now based on the distance between the target and the first teammate, then from the distance of that teammate to all other teammates.

Okay, so maybe this might not help a heavier mech further away from a target even if someone closer has LOS to lock on. Just means you gotta be close enough to receive the 'train' of information as it bounces through friendly mechs. Sounds like a passive C3 computer. Perhaps the Command Module that can be equipped inthe head might start having more use with this in the future?

[lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol]

Well, after almost 2 years of being on the forums I've learned more than apparently the minds behind balancing has. I can see now that PGI balancing team clearly has no interest in adjusting beyond its narrow scope of thinking and has no concept of foresight concerning game mechanics or lore of the game they bastardize.

I've learned that you can take a person to school, but you can't make them think. Most professionals learn from mistakes and try not to make them again. But it was about the same time last year the top minds handed out heavy nerfs and much later went back on most of them... yet it's Groundhog Day once again.

Sure yeah, it's a "test"... but damn most games out there (yes there are others) when they change things, it's usually well thought out and makes the game better. This dart board guessing game isn't really reflective of the quality I know exists in the majority, elsewhere.

But all in all, explaining what was going to be done for PTS was a MAJOR GREAT STEP in the right direction... that we should have had to spell out for "experienced professionals" who have professional job titles. Again, foresight, it's important. Keep working on it.

But yeah, good luck with the dart board testing to see how things are supposed to work. PGI has the license until 2020, right? Well hopefully the whales can keep you funded, if anything, out of mechadoll nostalgia because the direction keeps moving further and further away from things like "Lore, tactical and simulation." Maybe in a few years there will be someone who could add those elements to this First Person Shooter. Till then, thank you everyone for keeping this game on life support while I do other things to see if the games "condition" decides to improve. I have a life that doesn't revolve around Mechwarrior, so if the game has improved, great... if it's not... then I'll be glad I didn't waste any more of my time waiting on more bad ideas.

[Sereglach]

Balder Shadow, on 14 October 2015 - 10:32 AM, said:

I'm glad you (and many others) feel that way. Light stats already place them in the lowest usage bracket and without full time ECM coverage they're done. It was already getting tough with all the counter-measures and now, just not worth playing an ECM light.

To be seen as a light is to be killed at the higher tiers. When this is implemented I will be done with the ECM lights. I cannot wait to see the fallout of 3-6% lights in matchmaker.........

Honestly, as a primary light pilot, I find it hilarious that you think this will be the death of light mechs . . . particularly ECM lights. If anything, current standings are going to have the 2 ERLL ECM Raven come out as one of the nastiest and strongest competitors in the whole lot.

Long detection times for opponents, longer sensor ranges than any other weight class, with BAP + Modules it'd be able to fully detect and damage targets in a way that puts its full weapon range to use (without help/spotters, I might add); and it'll be able to pop out, shoot, and fade before any "Dorito" shows up on any enemy's radar at those ranges. That's just the "Meta Raven".

Other Lights are going to have all new life breathed into them. Here's a few key reasons for that:

1. Streak-lights will have a comeback, because they will not be as adamantly reliant on ECM or BAP to secure locks (it'll merely help them get locks faster). This affords them more tonnage for ammunition and firepower. The Locust 3S might actually carry streaks again . . . like it did in lore; and loadouts like the stock Uller (Kit Fox) Prime aren't dead the second it sees "low signal" because it's main point defense weapons, the Streaks, are knocked out.

2. Lights will have a new form of non-detection bubble . . . it's called scouting distance. 900m average sensor capabilities in light mechs! They'll be able to see you, point you out to their team, and begin relaying the ever-more-valuable TIG (Target Info Gathering) data back to your team without ever being seen.

3. Slower lights will provide valuable main-body screening for enemy scouts while faster lights will be said scouts for your team. Those slower mechs will be able to scan enemies further away, and because of their proximity to the main body TIG will be quickly shared. People won't be as apt to complain about an Adder, Urbanmech, Panther, or Uller hanging around. Role warfare starts to take shape in a good way.

4. Weapon and TTL/TTK tuning is helping ensure that mechs live longer and (especially lights) won't be insta-fragged the second they're seen by the enemy. Yes, this PTS Phase has zero quirks . . . but we also know that isn't permanent. We also know that they're even looking at things like blanket structure buffs (aside from quirks) and focusing of quirks will be in improving TTL (Time To Live). So you cannot take current gameplay lifespans as a reflection of how things will be once the rebalance is pushed through.

5. Smart play has always been required of light pilots, and that's not really going to change. However, the emphasis on role warfare abilities that we are starting to get tastes for will put lights into a very solid spot where one of their first efforts is going to be either scouting, scout-hunting, or force screening duties (based on chassis). They're not supposed to be the first ones seen or shooting. However, once the fight breaks out, they'll be highly invaluable to their team and will be able to wreak havoc.

The playtest has a long way to go, and there's probably going to be several more phases before anything hits live servers. The fact that you're calling it DoA (especially for lights) isn't helpful, at all, and you should take the time to step back, observe things overall, and look to actually try out the tests before placing judgment.

Jumping to conclusions over one change (one that the overwhelming majority of the community believes is adamantly necessary) will kill a weight class is kind of absurd. After all . . . one of the most popular lights are still Firestarters, and they don't have ECM.

Also, when you use the PTS and actually have some experience to base things off of (since all we have right now is speculation . . . although some is far more insightful and thought through -the people who've broken things down in detail- than others -the people who make random claims based off of current live gameplay-), be sure to give extremely detailed feedback based on your actual PTS experiences and what you think was good or bad.

Edited by Sereglach, 14 October 2015 - 12:44 PM.

[Jody Von Jedi]

Luscious Dan, on 14 October 2015 - 11:15 AM, said:

My recommendation for clearing up the issue is to simply add the maximum range to the HUD. If the HUD displayed both the optimum and maximum ranges (including quirks, modules, etc.) then there would be no guesswork or mental math required. Perhaps include the max range in brackets, or in a darker font so you can tell them apart?

Don't know if you're aware or not, but the range values next to the weapons display in the lower right side of the HUD changes colors indicating whether a weapon is within optimal range, between optimal and maximum, or beyond maximum range now. The range value changes color as the recital moves over targets.

Not exactly what you were looking for, but it is something.

[Amro One]

I wish they make a few of these live off the bat.

Lazer vomit only matches makes other games more interesting to play then this.

I wish they make a few of these live off the bat.

Lazer vomit only matches makes other games more interesting to play then this.

[Raflik]

[Hardin4188]

Jack Shayu Walker, on 14 October 2015 - 09:24 AM, said:

This is a logical fallacy and a false dilemma. A BV system and making all mechs the same are not the only solutions, that is simply not true. The reality of the situation is more complicated then that, as it often is. The truth is rarely simple.

There are ways to balance clan and IS so that they are different but equal. The problem is that PGI isn't doing the best job of a achieving that end; mind you they aren't doing a bad job, just not the best. One of their problems is they are reserved when it comes to taking direct suggestions from the players. Many great suggestions for weapon balance have been thrown around the forums, but have been largely ignored.

Clan mechs shouldn't be equal! They should have superior technology. But PGI wouldn't do 12 v. 10. CW is harmed and balanced is disrupted because people have to have 12 v 12 solo queue harmony. It's too late now to change it. The mindset is already well established, but it could have been fixed a long time ago.

Edited by Hardin4188, 14 October 2015 - 11:44 AM.

[BigBenn]

PGI will hopefully clarify more thuroughly on the changes to the Clan lasers. There are a LOT of grown men grying out there with hurt feelings on this.

Me... I'm thrilled as Hell to see the changes to ECM and heat sinks. A long time coming. Lets home the changes stick for good!

[Pz_DC]

1)
Light ‘Mechs: ~900m Sensor Range.
Medium ‘Mechs: ~800m Sensor Range.
Heavy ‘Mechs: ~700-750m Sensor Range.
Assault ‘Mechs: ~500-650m Sensor Range.

So all those LCT/FS-9/etc lights will have greater sensor range then AS-7? Realy?... Sounds strange for me...Realy - 100 ton mech have worse sensors then 20-tonner?... That need to be re-worked.
2) I'm IS pilot only. And I'm not happy with clan weapons range nerf...
3)Sensor range and weapons reange need some tweaks to be two parts of one system instead 2 different things as it is now.

P.S. to be continued...

P.P.S. It's going to be great work for you, PGI, and very interesting things will come to us soon. Thx.

Edited by MGA121285, 14 October 2015 - 12:13 PM.

[Malagant]

So, reduce clan heat capacity by .2 and increase the heat dissipation by .01. Ya that sounds fair... So IS gets 1.5 DHS and Clan get 1.4 still... BS!

Plus Clan lasers now have lesser overall range than IS lasers?! That's it, if this goes live, I want a refund on all my clan mechs, xp, modules and everything clan related...

The ONE set of weapons that were worth a damn and they get nerfed to oblivion...

[Navid A1]

PGI, these changes can give new functions to the utter useless targetting computers.

make a mech with a large enough TC be able to do non-reduced damage beyond that 60% max range.

or make the reticle flash red on a non-locked target ONLY IF THE MECH HAS A TC ONBOARD.!!!

Edited by Navid A1, 14 October 2015 - 12:41 PM.

[Jack Shayu Walker]

Hardin4188, on 14 October 2015 - 11:43 AM, said:

Clan mechs shouldn't be equal! They should have superior technology. But PGI wouldn't do 12 v. 10. CW is harmed and balanced is disrupted because people have to have 12 v 12 solo queue harmony. It's too late now to change it. The mindset is already well established, but it could have been fixed a long time ago.

They can't do 10 v 12 due to technical limitations. That means they have to balance clan vs IS and it's not the end of the world.

[Hardin4188]

Jack Shayu Walker, on 14 October 2015 - 12:42 PM, said:

They can't do 10 v 12 due to technical limitations. That means they have to balance clan vs IS and it's not the end of the world.

Yes yes yes, I'm aware of their reasoning. I am not new around here. I know they decided to go a different route and it was decision they made a long time ago.

[Madok Pryde]

"technical limitations" sounds a lot like "we do not want to pay our engineers to do that, because.... it is CONFUSING!!!"

[Mystere]

Balder Shadow, on 14 October 2015 - 10:32 AM, said:

I'm glad you (and many others) feel that way. Light stats already place them in the lowest usage bracket and without full time ECM coverage they're done. It was already getting tough with all the counter-measures and now, just not worth playing an ECM light.

To be seen as a light is to be killed at the higher tiers. When this is implemented I will be done with the ECM lights. I cannot wait to see the fallout of 3-6% lights in matchmaker.........

And just to be safe, 3/3/3/3 should be changed into a hard requirement with no release valves whatsoever.

[Jabilo]

• The targeting reticle will no longer flash when a hit is detected on a ‘Mech that is not target-locked.

This is the dumbest idea I have ever seen in a long line of dumb ideas in this game.

• Lasers will not do full damage when striking a ‘Mech that is not target-locked from a range greater than 60% of the Laser’s Maximum Range.

I expect new players to quickly grasp intuitive rules such as this.

Edited by Jabilo, 14 October 2015 - 12:53 PM.

[Hardin4188]

Jabilo, on 14 October 2015 - 12:48 PM, said:

• The targeting reticle will no longer flash when a hit is detected on a ‘Mech that is not target-locked.

This is the dumbest idea I have ever seen in a long line of dumb ideas in this game.

Meh, worse things have happened. I always got annoyed when people weren't targeting anyway. This will encourage people to actually press R and call out targets.