99 replies to this topic

[Mcgral18]

The ECM change, I fully support, if it's what I think it is. I actually suggested 5 seconds, but this is a welcome test either way.

One question about the Clan Laser change; you state Maximum range; does that mean the 2x extended range? As in, the cLPL has a 600M optimal, and 960M Maximum? Or the cLPL has a simple 360-720M range?


Equipment health is good; although a single Gauss crit will still destroy everything in a single crit. No longer PPCs or AC10s.
AC20 will still be fragile (did you nerf it to 15? Or up to 24), even if you have it 50 HP. It's 10 Crit slots large, which means you can't Crit Pad it effectively (unlike ammo).
Still, welcome change.


Heatsink change still doesn't solve the sub250 engine PoorDub issue (+0.6x heat dissipation quirk for bandaid), but might prove interesting.
Dissipation I find is more important than heat cap, but a difference for the 1 crit slots difference between IS and Clam DHS is nice.

Quote

Lasers will not do full damage when striking a ‘Mech that is not target-locked from a range greater than 60% of the Laser’s Maximum Range.

Dafuq...well, thank god you changed ECM, and I guess the short 3 second is for this reason.
It makes zero sense, but I'll try it.
And for numbers, Maximum range. So, for the 270M isML, would 60% of Maximum range be 432M (270*.6+270) or 324M (540*.6)? Makes a big difference, so I hope for the former.



Target info propagation between teammates sounds like a nice idea; longer for how far you are from the ally that targeted (and how long HE is from the target).



Well, better than expected, but some strange happenings. I shall test.

[SkyHammyr]

I agree.
these changes seem way more reasonable and playable than before.

I'm actually excited to try these out.

[Hades Trooper]

So nerf the clnas weapons again and nerf there heatsinks.

WHY even have clan weapons if {GI are just gonna keep nerf batting them. might as well just give each side 1 lot of weapon pool to pick from the way there making them redundant

[Dark DeLaurel]

We might as well just give the Clans and Inner Sphere the exact same values all around and unlock everything on the Clan Mechs. This way no one can complain about balance as each faction is the exact same other than the pretty skin on the outside.

I'm fine with the ECM changes, and the rest seem like a move in the right direction. The massive hit to Clan range while retaining all the same heat and getting .1 less dissipation just hurts all the bad Clan Mechs even more.

[Warprince85]

I'm a Casual Founder and dont really feel need to post but someone has to Rabble rouse. I really really dont like these sweeping nerf changes. Balancing hitboxes I understand. There should almost be no reason to experiment with existing game mechanics after the fact this isnt a beta anymore. I invested real Money into Mechs and equipment and learning to be a better player. To every so often have my mechs tampered with makes me lose sleep. Clan tech is supposed to be superior, We all know that . There is reason I don't invest in the DLC money grubbed console world. This to me feels very similar. . Balance a Campaign mode or maybe co-op lance missions settings that would be appreciated.

[Night Thastus]

I'm very intested. As someone who has 59 'Mechs, around 1/2 clan and 1/2 IS, here's what my thoughts are:

What I like:
1: Clan Laser range nerf. It's extreme, and I think it's a little much (40%!) but It'll help to reduce that laser meta a little. Not that most clanners are running them nowadays. Most of them have swapped over to mixed builds.

2: Clan heatsinks now cool faster, but have slightly less additional heat-cap. I can see the intention. Lower alpha-strikes, but more sustained firepower.

3: ECM nerfs. Magic jeesus box is finally brought down a peg. It was far too powerful and played far too much of a role in most matches. Teams without it generally had a very significant disadvantage. I frankly think it shouldn't delay locks (it didn't in the lore).

However, it's really backwards. In the lore, ECM stands for electronic countermeasures. It's whole existence was to stop the bonuses from NARC, TAG, BAP and ARTEMIS. It wasn't anything to do with magic invisibility bubbles or stopping locks. I really hate the interpretation in this game.

What I don't like:
1: Sensor ranges. As many people have pointed out, this is completely backwards. Instead of magically giving lights better targeting computers, who not do the opposite? Lights are small, run smaller fusion reactors and have less of seismic signiture.

Lights should have a lower "detection range" than assaults, which are gigantic and easily visible. For example, perhaps you can only detect a light at 300m, but due to the much larger signiture, you can easily detect an assault at 800. Those are just filler figures, but that's the idea.

2: Less laser damage if not locked and beyond a certain range. This is arbitrary and weird. It is again, a gigantic band-aid for the underlying problem of high alpha potential. If we didn't have convergence, this wouldn't be a problem.

What I'm unsure on:
1: More health to components/weapons. While this does kind-of ruin the fun of critting someone's componenets out, I suppose it'll help TTK? Sort of?

2: Single heatsinks get a buff? Who cares? They're crap anyways. I personally want 1.0 singles and 2.0 doubles across the board, but that isn't going to happen, so I suppose it's whatever. Everyone who has a brain is still going to upgrade to doubles, so it's not like it matters.

[TyphonCh]

Mcgral18, on 13 October 2015 - 06:19 PM, said:

One question about the Clan Laser change; you state Maximum range; does that mean the 2x extended range? As in, the cLPL has a 600M optimal, and 960M Maximum? Or the cLPL has a simple 360-720M range?

I'm about %99.9 certain that means the max effective range. So your base ERml is 405m, add %40 to that makes it do damage out to 567m, rather than 810. A %40 nerf to it's base range would be ridiculous...
I wouldn't call it heavy handed.. But %40 seems high

[Tremz87]

40% seems a bit much but Im just a pleb so who cares what I say.

[EmperorMyrf]

I'm pretty excited to see how these changes work. I've noticed that all of the newer maps have been trying to incorporate some form of fog, I assume this is meant as a way to make infotech quirks/equipment more useful and apparent and I look forward to playing some games on those new maps in the PTS.

However as much as I want to see infotech directly affecting the ability to do damage I'm not sure the change to laser damage at range is going to help much, we'll just see everyone dropping lasers and going gauss/ACs. But I'll still wait to run around in the PTS before sticking to any opinion there.

Night Thastus, on 13 October 2015 - 06:44 PM, said:

What I don't like:
1: Sensor ranges. As many people have pointed out, this is completely backwards. Instead of magically giving lights better targeting computers, who not do the opposite? Lights are small, run smaller fusion reactors and have less of seismic signiture.

Lights should have a lower "detection range" than assaults, which are gigantic and easily visible. For example, perhaps you can only detect a light at 300m, but due to the much larger signiture, you can easily detect an assault at 800. Those are just filler figures, but that's the idea.

I think I'd rather see this as well. Though I'd still want to see sensor ranges differ on a per chassis basis, or at least target acquisition speed.

Edited by EmperorMyrf, 13 October 2015 - 06:59 PM.

[Charles Sennet]

Overall the test changes seem smart. A 60% reduction to max range of Clan lasers seems heavy-handed. The suggestion that all weapons are the same for both the IS/Clans is intriguing however I would miss the distinctive feel each has. Laser ranges should be carefully balanced as they are the the primary weapon in CW and currently provide the IS-quirked-meta a big advantage. Although Russ has stated that single-slug Clan AC's have 'not been talked about', I would like to see that revisited. Why have standard Clan AC's (non-ultra versions) in their current form? They should be single-slug versions. As many know pinpoint damage matters. If the IS has both laser range, and pinpoint ballistic advantages, that is hugely problematic. The last concern with ECM changes is that it will spawn many more LRM pilots. I like the game now in the way LRMs are not as prevalent as they once were. Some changes have see the pendulum swinging too far the other direction (initial OP Clan tech, OP IS quirked-response, o-gen placements in CW which mostly favor IS defenders, etc.) which is one of the reasons we are talking about a complete re-balance instead of incremental adjustments. Lets be careful not to repeat that mistake this time around. Another thought for PGI is that for pilots that purchased (with real $$$) mechs to get quirks (as I did with the TBR-D) then remove those quirks, perhaps a credit of some kind is warranted. Otherwise it feels a bit like bait and switch (may seem slightly off-topic but not really if these changes go live). Despite these constructive criticisms of what may happen, I am thrilled PGI is taking these steps and I look forward to a more balanced game all around.

[PurpleNinja]

PGI should remove "A Battletech Game" from the logo. These changes are awful.

[50 50]

It will be interesting to see how the quirks for the sensor ranges work with the base sensor range according to the chassis.

EDIT: Regarding the 40% range change for the clan lasers
Clan ER Medium Now
Optimum Range 405m
Maximum Range 810m

Test change Maximum Range +40% of Optimal
Optimum Range 405m
Maximum Range 648m
The damage drop off makes the Optima Range without lock 243m

Edited by 50 50, 15 October 2015 - 03:39 AM.

[MischiefSC]

I like all of it except the whole lasers at 60% thing. I'm going to recommend something else instead......

No weapon convergence on an unlocked target. You want to make Infotech matter? That'd do it. That'd do the holy living **** out of it. You want to make 'role warfare'? That'd do it in spades. You want to shoot at someone outside of 500m and alpha strike them, you need them locked by someone else or you need sensor quirks/goodies. Otherwise you have to chainfire weapons with a 0.5 second 'convergence' delay on each weapon to the crosshair or you alpha and they just go straight out of the barrel, centered around your crosshair.

This also gives use to that convergence perk in the skill menu. Speeding up weapon convergence on unlocked targets.

Do it. It makes more sense than reducing laser damage.

[TyphonCh]

MischiefSC, on 13 October 2015 - 07:15 PM, said:

I like all of it except the whole lasers at 60% thing. I'm going to recommend something else instead......

No weapon convergence on an unlocked target. You want to make Infotech matter? That'd do it. That'd do the holy living **** out of it. You want to make 'role warfare'? That'd do it in spades. You want to shoot at someone outside of 500m and alpha strike them, you need them locked by someone else or you need sensor quirks/goodies. Otherwise you have to chainfire weapons with a 0.5 second 'convergence' delay on each weapon to the crosshair or you alpha and they just go straight out of the barrel, centered around your crosshair.

%100 agreed. I feel like they're pussyfooting around convergence at this point like they're afraid of it. Maybe it will come in at phase 3?
The %60 laser damage is a direct buff to ballistics, and doesn't even really make sense. Why can't lasers still have full damage potential if not locked...???
Make use of this PTS server!!!

Edited by Team Chevy86, 13 October 2015 - 07:28 PM.

[Outcast1six]

Most of what I have a problem with has been stated, so this is to throw my vote into changing it.

the 40% reduction is a HUGE hit, clan lasers are SUPPOSED to shoot farther.

Laser weapons do less damage when not locked? WTF does that even mean. I know that MWO isn't real, but seriously? A direct fire weapon does less damage when not locked. Explain that sh!t.

I am for the ECM tweaks, but I agree that they were supposed to counter ELECTRONIC weapon enhancements. Not the other way around. I would like to see them work as Electronic COUNTER Measures are supposed to.

I have an issue with the lighter mechs can lock farther than heavier mechs. So you are telling me that a smaller mech, that should have less equipment space, has more powerful sensors? I like the idea od smaller mechs having a smaller "signature" and being more difficult to lock up, but I can't think that an Atlas would have weaker sensors than a Locust.

Someone had a suggestion that all this could be done with equipment and modules. You want a scout mech, cool, your locust or raven has 8 module slots and you can throw on sensor range, lock speed, and a half dozen other modules to boost you ability to find and lock opponent mechs and you make BAP a slot like ECM and there you have it, a custom "scout" mech.

[Peter2k]

MischiefSC, on 13 October 2015 - 07:15 PM, said:

I like all of it except the whole lasers at 60% thing. I'm going to recommend something else instead......

No weapon convergence on an unlocked target. You want to make Infotech matter? That'd do it. That'd do the holy living **** out of it. You want to make 'role warfare'? That'd do it in spades. You want to shoot at someone outside of 500m and alpha strike them, you need them locked by someone else or you need sensor quirks/goodies. Otherwise you have to chainfire weapons with a 0.5 second 'convergence' delay on each weapon to the crosshair or you alpha and they just go straight out of the barrel, centered around your crosshair.

This also gives use to that convergence perk in the skill menu. Speeding up weapon convergence on unlocked targets.

Do it. It makes more sense than reducing laser damage.

That'd be awesome

[Lord0fHats]

All the proposed changes I find intriguing save one; Less damage from lasers if not target locked. This is a bizarre way of tackling to problem that is the laser meta. This will help eliminate the laser meta (and bring the Clans down a peg) but it's just going to usher in a very fierce brawl meta, and clan mechs don't exactly suck at brawling, but they aren't very fun... Plus Clan ACs and SRMs still do bad damage/have rotten heat.

EDIT: Alternately, return of the PPC meta.

PGI, please stop being lazy and just fix the numbers. This is looking less like a rebalance and more like a "lets throw in some arbitrary mechanics to force players to play differently." The game already has a steep learning curve. Add more, especially odd rules like this, on top of that is not going to improve the new player experience or make the game any funner for veteran players.

Edited by Lord0fHats, 13 October 2015 - 07:53 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Everyone be cool, this is actually rather iterative. It's not a bad approach - It's establishing some baselines and that makes sense and is a good idea. The telemetry from this is going to be genuinely productive and especially around closer range fighting should provide useful results. I'm all for that and agree with all of it that's being introduced.

No point knocking it now - making suggestions of things you want to see? Great. Are we saying we'd rather see the Clans nerfed by straight numbers on weapons? That's possible but if this works without nerfing actual damage, even better. I'm not sure it will. It will, however, push combat more into that 500m or less range which indirectly buffs things like IS MLs, MGs and even SRMs. Not enough but a bit and it should be measurable.

Play, provide data. It's a good thing.

[InRev]

Regarding the target lock for lasers weirdness:

InRev, on 13 October 2015 - 07:34 PM, said:

I play mediums almost exclusively and, most of the time, I take very quick shots from cover before scooting to safety so that I don't get instablapped. Waiting for lock-on while exposed, just so that my weapons do the damage that they're otherwise "supposed" to do, doesn't make me feel warm and fuzzy inside.

I know it's supposed to discourage hill-humping, but I fear that it will disproportionately affect the weaker weight-classes (mediums and lights) because they already don't trade very well and thus need to minimize exposure times.

That's the main change that I hope we nuke from orbit during this PTS. Other than that, it seems to be a mostly solid, if uninspiring, round of changes.

[Mordin Ashe]

Some things are great. Such as:
More equipment health, ECM nerf, scouting, changes to heat sinks - really, this shouldn't be so rigid.

Nerfing Clans this big is a huge f*ck-up though. Anyonw still needs proof that PGI is full of IS loyalists who want Clans nerfed to the ground, with their favorite IS Mechs ruling everything? Bad, bad, bad message PGI is sending.
Technology gap? What technology gap? Clans have some stats better, some stats worse and IS has quirks.What technology gap? This was adressed more than half a year ago...

EDIT: Why does IS single heat sink cool more than 7x faster than Clan DHS? Typo or another egomaniacal nerf...?

Edited by Mordin Ashe, 13 October 2015 - 08:16 PM.