99 replies to this topic

[M1Combat]

At 1000 I think it's...

4.66 for the IS-ERLL
4.15 for the C-ERLL

Edited by M1Combat, 13 October 2015 - 10:37 PM.

[Outcast1six]

M1Combat, on 13 October 2015 - 10:26 PM, said:

As I read it... they're removing 40% of the max range of the Clan lasers... I don't think they're touching the optimal range.


With the range nerf of the Clan lasers...

IS-ERLL drops 1 damage per 75m after 675.
C-ERLL drops 1 damage per 44.4m after 740.


At 900m we're looking at 6 damage for the IS-ERLL vs 6.4 damage for the C-ERLL. I haven't done the math but I think they're very close at 1000m.

I am just going to throw this out there, and I understand that there were issues with the scaling of clan vs IS weapons. But Clan weapons are SUPPOSED to hit harder. I don't so much mind the extra burn time. Might as well do as some of the others suggest. Make them the same. At the going rate there is no clan "advantage" weapon wise.

Still would like to see clan binary vs IS company. would add more lore flavor.

[Not A Real RAbbi]

A quick thought on weapon convergence, quirks, and balancing...

Consider the CPLT-K2. It had two VERY widely-spaced energy hard points (LA, RA), two closely-spaced ones (torso), and two kinda medium-spaced ones for ballistics (LT, RT). Now, what WAS the stock loadout on that thing? PPCs (LONG range) in the arms, MGs (SHORT range) and MLs (MEDIUM-ish range) in the torsos. SO, if you run a custom K2 build with, say, UAC/5s in the side torso points, and MLs in the 4 E points, you get something pretty interesting with convergence. The arm MLs are in points ORIGINALLY intended for LONG-range weapons. Maybe the K2's arms can only converge so far (lacking lower arm actuators, as they do). Say they're unable to converge on a target within the PPC's minimum range of 90m. So, regardless of the weapon you mount there, it simply CAN NOT converge to pinpoint on a target within 90m. From 90m to infinity, though, it can converge to pinpoint. And that convergence speed is set (and affected by the elite skill PINPOINT, of course). The side torso ballistic points are another matter entirely. They were made for MGs, and MGs are point-blank weapons. So as long as you're sporting MGs there, they can converge quickly to virtually 0.01m (1cm) if need be. Call it 5m MINIMUM for ALL weapons systems, no matter what. Cool. But then you remove the .5t MG and replace it with a 9t UAC/5. Bigger, heavier. Takes a LOT more space, thus limiting the usefulness of that hard point's convergence capabilities. So, we limit any OTHER ballistic weapon in that hard point to a minimum convergence range of at least 120m. Make it 180 for Gauss, because WEIGHT AND BULK! And those arm-mounted E weapons? Well, again, set to converge at as close at 90m. Same applies for MLs, LLs, LPLs, SLs, and so on. Inside that range, their convergence is inversely proportional to the proportion of that minimum convergence range. That is, if a target is 30 meters off, then any weapon mounted there will only converge to 2/3 the actual distance between the muzzle and the center of Line of Sight. Call it a 6-meter distance from center line, for sake of argument. So, at 30m, the RA weapon would be, AT BEST, 4m off-center of the reticle. At 60m, that's 2m off-center to the right. And at 90m and beyond, it's dead-on. The further out from that range, of course, the more quickly it can converge from its previous range.

Take that K2 into battle. It's being harassed by a rather hot ACH-B build. That poor Arctic Cheetah pilot just overheated his mech RIGHT IN FRONT OF that K2 Cat, at about 60m. The K2 driver has cooled off enough to drop an alpha strike on the poor kitty. But at THAT range, he knows his convergence is crap. He just conveniently forgets in the heat of the moment. SO, his two torso MLs hit dead-center. His two UAC/5s each hit off-center by about 50% of their center-line-to-muzzle distance, and the arm-mounted MLs hit off-center by 67% of their center-line-to-muzzle distance, barely catching the shoulders of the poor, poor kitty. In all, the ACH loses 10 CT armor, and 5 armor each LT, LA, RT, RA, assuming perfect center-mass aim. His mech fires back up, and he proceeds with the facehugging.

Consider then, that there could be a convergence bonus quirk for certain weapon systems for that mech, such as PPCs in the arms having a higher convergence speed, and MGs as well. Why? Those are the weapons it was DESIGNED for, and deviating from the original design should have its little drawbacks.

Another example. A TBR with both of the 2E arm omnipods has some significant distance between them. WITHOUT the lower arm actuators, the convergence is still limited to 90m or beyond. WITH the lower arm actuators, there's a somewhat slow convergence within that range to the virtual 5m point-blank. Whatever. Hell, call it 30m. Now, there's some reason to WANT lower arm actuators in a mech that has them as no-weight optional equipment.

And then consider the HBK-4P Swayback. Used to be THE knife-fighting medium to fear. That RT has 6 E hard points. And when you look at the mech, they're right there next to one another. Convergence on THOSE should be ridiculously quick, because GEOMETRY REASONS! Assuming MPL or smaller weapons, of course. It could fall off a bit for LLs and LPLs, and back to the full normal (or maybe a tad longer even) for PPCs and ERPPCs. Call it a quirk. MAKE it a quirk.

JR7 chassis (Oxide excluded for obvious reasons)? Add a 10m nerf to the minimum convergence range for arm-mounted E weapons, because they're so far apart AND there's a long torso ahead of (and between) them. Call it a build-in safety measure by the manufacturer. Whatever. No lower arm actuators anyhow. Maybe offset it with a better cooldown for MPL and smaller E weapons in the arms, because there's so little else IN those arms to draw primary DC and AC power anyhow.

Convergence for large ( >AC/2) ballistics in torsos might get range/speed nerfed, too, to help balance out the ballistic boats.

JM6 chassis gets an across-the-board quirk for arm-weapon convergence speed and range, mostly because the arms are odd in geometry, the torso doesn't protrude forward, etc. Same for Blackjack. And HBR, and WHM (when it finally releases in February, just in time to compete with DooM for my playing time).

Anyhow, those are some examples. See where I'm going with this?

Also, convergence should be a non-issue with LRMs and SSRMs, since they're guided missiles. That said, swapping unguided missiles into their hard points (say, SRM-6s to replace the stock LRMs in a CPLT-A1) would incur a penalty to convergence within 180m (the original minimum range of the LRM for IS mechs). Maybe just a negative quirk for all SRMs for convergence in such builds. Couldn't make as much difference in a STK, of course, as narrow a chassis as that is.

Are ya followin' what I'm suggesting here?

[ElricVonRabenfels]

Quote

Lasers will not do full damage when striking a ‘Mech that is not target-locked from a range greater than 60% of the Laser’s Maximum Range.

WhatisthisIdonteven...

Quote

This is arbitrary and weird. It is again, a gigantic band-aid for the underlying problem of high alpha potential.

It is -very- arbitrary.

Quote

Why do lasers need to be locked on to do full damage? Conversely, why do ballistic weapons not need to be locked on?

I concur. It just makes NO sense at all. Lasers are lasers, they're LIGHT. Light does not give a **** if some weapon system is "locked on" to something. The whole concept defies any sense of realism completely. It's just... silly weird.

This is the main change I -don't- like.

Just reduce the damage done on non-optimal range a bit more?

Edited by ElricVonRabenfels, 13 October 2015 - 11:36 PM.

[Quincy McAllister]

Most important for me is to say thanks to PGI. Your way to have an open discussion and thorough testing of potential changes of key balancing issues is the right way. Please go ahead.

[MischiefSC]

Hang on.

So Clan lasers have an optimal range further out than IS lasers but a significantly reduced maximum range compared to IS mechs... but they'll only reap that advantage if they have someone spotting the target. Make sense?

So in a way it's a counter-balance to the range nerf on Clans, given the ubiquity of CECM.

The concept.... while it's counter-intuitive and awkward as hell I get the concept it's chasing and I can't say I disagree.

[Kamies]

Quote

The targeting reticle will no longer flash when a hit is detected on a ‘Mech that is not target-locked.

So how AC2 and UAC5 boats are suppose to know how much they lead on targets? PPC and Gauss snipers too? How about that satisfying feeling when your arty hits a hiding enemy mech? I think this change will be devastating for new players and huge annoyance to the sniping veterans.

[M1Combat]

Kamies, on 14 October 2015 - 12:24 AM, said:

So how AC2 and UAC5 boats are suppose to know how much they lead on targets? PPC and Gauss snipers too? How about that satisfying feeling when your arty hits a hiding enemy mech? I think this change will be devastating for new players and huge annoyance to the sniping veterans.

Only to the ones who don't lock their targets...

Besides ...

You could always just watch the round hit???

I kinda agree with the concern about arty shots though... It's so nice to see your reticule flash 5-6 times on an arty strike .

Edited by M1Combat, 14 October 2015 - 12:47 AM.

[M1Combat]

Outcast16, on 13 October 2015 - 11:14 PM, said:

I am just going to throw this out there, and I understand that there were issues with the scaling of clan vs IS weapons. But Clan weapons are SUPPOSED to hit harder. I don't so much mind the extra burn time. Might as well do as some of the others suggest. Make them the same. At the going rate there is no clan "advantage" weapon wise.

Still would like to see clan binary vs IS company. would add more lore flavor.

I don't agree.

For the first 750m the clan ERLL does hit harder (11%). It's only at about 960m that it starts to drop lower.

Also keep in mind that if they just move their number to even 30% the clan weapon will retain a reach advantage and still hit harder out to maybe 1100.

AND... If you're running two of them (C-ERLL) you've saved 2 crits and a ton for a HS and another ton compared to the IS version...


To go further... The mech you'll likely be running those two lasers on will likely move faster, maybe have JJ's and has a MUCH better chance of having an ECM than whatever IS mech you're rolling...



Another point...
Those are only numbers for the ERLL's. I'd bet the real reason for being 40% is for the ERML's. I'd also bet they can change the number for each weapon.

Edited by M1Combat, 14 October 2015 - 12:51 AM.

[Kamies]

M1Combat, on 14 October 2015 - 12:33 AM, said:

You could always just watch the round hit???

You dakka 4-6 rounds per second to +500 metres and are supposed visually see where they hit while enemy hits makes you wobble and blurs your vision?

[Kotev]

Very nice ideas except nerfing Clan lasers. IS lasers should be nerfed too.

[M1Combat]

Kamies, on 14 October 2015 - 12:46 AM, said:

You dakka 4-6 rounds per second to +500 metres and are supposed visually see where they hit while enemy hits makes you wobble and blurs your vision?

Your aim should be good the first time. A flashing reticule doesn't tell you where you hit. Only that you hit. Target the ******* and watch your target info screen flash..........

[M1Combat]

Kotev, on 14 October 2015 - 12:52 AM, said:

Very nice ideas except nerfing Clan lasers. IS lasers should be nerfed too.

Put together some numbers for me that show that IS lasers should be nerfed too... Keeping in mind that the IS mechs will lose most/all of their quirks...

The IS ML has a MAX range of 540...
The C ERML has an OPTIMAL range of 405... And does 20% more damage...




Yeah the more numbers I run through the more this makes sense. The Clan lasers are only losing effectiveness beyond their optimal rage which is quite a bit longer than IS lasers in the first place. I think this'll be an excellent change myself...

Edited by M1Combat, 14 October 2015 - 01:07 AM.

[Stah]

So, what do we have, in terms and meanings of "Real" Battletech (Capt. Obvious mode on):

1. ECM. Practically killed. "Designed to interfere with guided weaponry, targeting computers, and communication systems, the Guardian is typically used to shield allied units from such equipment by emitting a broad-band signal meant to confuse radar, infrared, ultraviolet, magscan and sonar sensors" ©, it is now almost obsolete, forcing unit to crowd on 90m. And from other side - they can be targeted from 90m now on. Pro: attacker should come closer to target. Con: as I already mentioned, sphere is too small for unit.

2. Heat Sinks. The heat is key aspect of BT itself. And the most significant difference between Clan and Inner Sphere technology, where Inner Sphere was far behind. However, developers make mistakes from the beginning: initially, they reduced the capacity of DHS. Now, they do the same thing again for Clans, practically converting their DHS to SHS. Actually, it means:'Thank you for you money, dear clanners. Now you know, you flush them..."

3a. Weaponry. Clan weapon systems are more light, more dangerous and more long-range. Really? Light - yes, so far. Dangerous? Let me doubt. Pulses have more strikes to do, ordinary lasers have longer duration, and now all weapons - shazam! - they produce more heat! (see p.2). Range? It has nothing in common with BT rules and description at all, especially - lasers. Yeah, I know, I know - Physics, etc. But, wait a minute! Do Clans use OTHER Physics than Inner Sphere? No? So, why their lasers are now short-ranged? Or did I miss something: whose technology was ruined in Age of War, and whose was improved?

3b. Weaponry again. I already mentioned the physics. Let me understand difference between physics of "target-locked 'Mech" and "any other 'Mech". Nothing at all? So, explain then difference between damage, I cause first one and second one - and why it is less, until target is not locked. I am too dumb. I DO NOT understand.

4. Targetting Systems. Ok, I can take the fact, targetting systems are different. But, guys, didn't anyone tell you - SIZE DOES NOT MATTER! If you are trying to dissolve and vary targetting systems, do it by manufacturers or factions. I am really don't like a fact, that I can be discovered by fast and light 'Mech from 900m, and then this little sneak disappears much before my assault rocket boat will reach targetting distance 500m. Yeah, I know, I know - "join a team, don't play alone". But in fact it means another weaponry problem: your assault LRM boats are useless for more than 650m. Sad story? For me - really not, though. But nonetheless.

That's all for today, guys. I hope, you have enough bad opinions in this thread to discuss - and change your mind.

Edited by Stah, 14 October 2015 - 01:19 AM.

[M1Combat]

Stah, on 14 October 2015 - 01:10 AM, said:

But in fact it means another weaponry problem: your assault LRM boats are useless more than 650m.

Maybe you can get your light mech buddy to spot for your assault LRM boat so you aren't useless farther than 650m?

I don't think this will have as profound an impact as you seem to believe it will. Maybe if you are left as the last mech and you're an assault LRM boat then maybe it causes an issue for you?

[Kamies]

M1Combat, on 14 October 2015 - 12:55 AM, said:

Your aim should be good the first time. A flashing reticule doesn't tell you where you hit. Only that you hit. Target the ******* and watch your target info screen flash..........

"Your aim should be good the first time" ain't helping when you dakka moving target in a night map full of terrain hit box problems.

And if you keep your eyes on info screen while trying to aim 4-6 shot per second you are doing something wrong.

[Kin3ticX]

I am very confident that -40% clan range is everything after the optimum range

Heres why

ERML: 405 * .60 = 243

no way in hell the ERML is less than 270

more likely it is

405*1.6 = 648

[Razor2323]

At first reading (as a spider pilot) i cried expecting a lrmageddon v2..... but then seeing how the range acquisitions have changed this could be very interesting, very curious to see where this goes... as an IS pilot i worry about the Clan range nerf... but will see how it balances out... i was under the impression the clans were outright more powerful tech , but far few numbers... hard to translate to 12v12 i understand..

[Setun]

Lord0fHats, on 13 October 2015 - 07:39 PM, said:

All the proposed changes I find intriguing save one; Less damage from lasers if not target locked. This is a bizarre way of tackling to problem that is the laser meta. This will help eliminate the laser meta (and bring the Clans down a peg) but it's just going to usher in a very fierce brawl meta, and clan mechs don't exactly suck at brawling, but they aren't very fun... Plus Clan ACs and SRMs still do bad damage/have rotten heat.

EDIT: Alternately, return of the PPC meta.

You just gave me the biggest hard-on for a brawl meta. It's about time people manned the **** up and got nice and close.

[Stah]

M1Combat, on 14 October 2015 - 01:19 AM, said:

Maybe you can get your light mech buddy to spot for your assault LRM boat so you aren't useless farther than 650m?

"Yeah, I know, I know - join the team, don't play alone..."
Moreover, LRM at 650m is far close to BT rules, than at 1000m. But wait a minute! - instead, this sneaky light (or medium, and that's really hurts!) Clan 'Mech with 2-3 LRMs and ECM (or even without it!) will make a shower for me from 900m, unhindred. Very nice option, indeed?

Edited by Stah, 14 October 2015 - 02:34 AM.