44 replies to this topic

[PholkLorr]

Even in most other FPS shooters, people like to know if they actually did damage or not.

In those other FPS, the edges of the world's objects are perfect and what you would expect. Ie. a wall blocks damage up till the edge of the wall, not beyond.

Not so in MWO. A wall/buildings/trees/anything has about 2 cm worth of invisible pixel damage proof glass that let you see through them but do 0 dmg. Imagine how frustrating it is if a player blows all his heat doing pokes, not knowing if his laser actually hit or not. At the end of the round he gets crap damage and he feels cheated and pissed.

Furthermore, i think removing the red crosshair flash detracts from people's concept of fun. Fun = you shoot something, you know you hit. There needs to be a visual cue to let you know you hit. Without the red flash, you wouldn't know if you hit or not. Especially since the mechs don't spray blood or contort when hit. The only visual cue you have is a small damage glow that is very hard to see at long range.

Lastly, i think the last thing anyone was thinking about when they called for a 'rebalance' was the removal of a mechanic that most FPS shooters have expected to be there.

This doesn't "balance" anything at all since PGI is diminishing the fun for BOTH IS and Clans AND lights AND meds AND heavies AND Assaults.

Nobody asked for this change, why fix what ain't broke?! No. In this case, Why break what is fixed?!

[Revis Volek]

amen brotha

[Illya Ghost Bear]

how about...let's test it..then see? Its a TEST.

And if it reduces long rang focus fire, which I think it will, due to lack of confirmed hits, it might actually be a GOOD thing.

[Deathlike]

It's going to be unreliable at long range... that reticule.

What's worse is that it "indirectly" covers up PGI's bad hitreg.

[MoonUnitBeta]

Illya Arkhipova, on 13 October 2015 - 10:05 PM, said:

how about...let's test it..then see? Its a TEST.

And if it reduces long rang focus fire, which I think it will, due to lack of confirmed hits, it might actually be a GOOD thing.

You know people are already setting their minds on it, and will be looking for ways how it detracts from gameplay.

I think it's a valid point.
Imagine if we weren't told about the change. People would be posting like mad
"Why aren't my hits registering!?"
"The reticle is bugged / not showing hits that are dealing damage."
I feel that any people unknowing of the change in the live server would feel much the same way. Somethings don't really need to be tested as you can pretty much expect what the results are. No, you never know for sure, but I think in this case it's pretty much common sense.

What would be grand is testing a reticle thing, like, say, ooo a friendly fire reticle indicator? Time would be well spent on something like that.

But creating uncertainty in your actions is not something we need. That's a given. Especially when gameplay is already as sketchy as it is. You don't know if it's server issues, client issues, or working as intended.
I guess uncertainty in the amount of damage is one thing (for example lesser laser damage on enemies that are not target locked), but uncertainty in whether you're actually doing any damage at all is something very different.

Edited by MoonUnitBeta, 13 October 2015 - 10:15 PM.

[Illya Ghost Bear]

MoonUnitBeta, on 13 October 2015 - 10:08 PM, said:

You know people are already setting their minds on it, and will be looking for ways how it detracts from gameplay.

I think it's a valid point.
Imagine if we weren't told about the change. People would be posting like mad
"Why aren't my hits registering!?"
"The reticle is bugged / not showing hits that are dealing damage."
I feel that any people unknowing of the change in the live server would feel much the same way. Somethings don't really need to be tested as you can pretty much expect what the results are. No, you never know for sure, but I think in this case it's pretty much common sense.

odd, because I can also see where it might actually help gameplay...not on the offensive side, but defensive. Because lack snap shot registration, just like reduced damage on snapshots, (aka not locked) would actually reduce the efficacy of focus fire. And thus increase TTK.

Since we are already too offensively oriented, with too short a TTK not sure this is bad.

Also..riddle me this...if the computer is not locked on a target, how would it register the damage and the extent, anyhow? A non registered mech would be about the same as shooting a hill. Something interrupted the beam...but without locking it, what?

I think people are being too kneejerk...as usual.

MoonUnitBeta, on 13 October 2015 - 10:08 PM, said:

You know people are already setting their minds on it, and will be looking for ways how it detracts from gameplay.

I think it's a valid point.
Imagine if we weren't told about the change. People would be posting like mad
"Why aren't my hits registering!?"
"The reticle is bugged / not showing hits that are dealing damage."
I feel that any people unknowing of the change in the live server would feel much the same way. Somethings don't really need to be tested as you can pretty much expect what the results are. No, you never know for sure, but I think in this case it's pretty much common sense.

odd, because I can also see where it might actually help gameplay...not on the offensive side, but defensive. Because lack snap shot registration, just like reduced damage on snapshots, (aka not locked) would actually reduce the efficacy of focus fire. And thus increase TTK.

Since we are already too offensively oriented, with too short a TTK not sure this is bad.

Also..riddle me this...if the computer is not locked on a target, how would it register the damage and the extent, anyhow? A non registered mech would be about the same as shooting a hill. Something interrupted the beam...but without locking it, what?

I think people are being too kneejerk...as usual.

Edited by Illya Arkhipova, 13 October 2015 - 10:13 PM.

[Troutmonkey]

Making the user interface worse isn't fun, and isn't a balancing factor. It will simply lead to confusion and frustration.

What we need is
1. Red cursor - You hit!
2. Red cursor, animated - You hit and did maximum damage!
3. Blue cursor - You shot a friendly you idiot!

Edited by Troutmonkey, 13 October 2015 - 10:16 PM.

[Spheroid]

They could simply add an additional reticle element. If they used an overlayed "X" that would not visually interfere with the + of the main graphic.

[MoonUnitBeta]

Illya Arkhipova, on 13 October 2015 - 10:13 PM, said:

odd, because I can also see where it might actually help gameplay...not on the offensive side, but defensive. Because lack snap shot registration, just like reduced damage on snapshots, (aka not locked) would actually reduce the efficacy of focus fire. And thus increase TTK.

Since we are already too offensively oriented, with too short a TTK not sure this is bad.

Sorry, as I mentioned in my edit (not something you would have seen if you were replying) so I'll just reiterate it again.
"Uncertainty in the amount of damage is one thing (for example lesser laser damage on enemies that are not target locked), but uncertainty in whether you're actually doing any damage at all is something very different."
I don't think it has any affect at all on gameplay except to create uncertainty. Snap shot isn't something that's really a concern for me. People are still going to do it. It's also an advanced technique that takes practice and know-how. For casuals who aren't that experienced, or players who are learning, it can be frustrating if they lack that feedback necessary to learn from and gauge their accuracy. Maybe they like to snipe, but can't tell if they're hitting the rock or hill behind the mech, what then? They just... assume they're not hitting him and do something else? That sucks.

It's another one of those changes that are only meant to deter advanced players, but ends up totally sucking for everyone else.

Illya Arkhipova, on 13 October 2015 - 10:13 PM, said:

Also..riddle me this...if the computer is not locked on a target, how would it register the damage and the extent, anyhow? A non registered mech would be about the same as shooting a hill. Something interrupted the beam...but without locking it, what?

I think people are being too kneejerk...as usual.

Riddle me this: How many people have complained that reticle hit indication on non-target-lock is an immersion killer?
You wanna roll the immersion card? Get rid of the hit indicator all together and lets go purely by visual confirmation. There's no need to make up senseless garbage to support the lack of / partially working required feature in a video game.

Edited by MoonUnitBeta, 13 October 2015 - 10:33 PM.

[That Guy]

it is quite easy to tell if you are shooting an invisible wall. the shot hits the wall



i like the idea of requiring a lock for your mech to track if it is doing damage to an enemy mech. as opposed to the magic red we get now. but really, its small beans here

[Duke ramulots]

I always play FPS's on hardcore when possible. No HUD or hit indicators. If there were a game mode where you didn't even get a "you killed *****" message I'd play that as well.

[Gomdril]

The first game I recall seeing a hit indicator in was quake 3 arena, and I have to say, it's been a crutch in every game since. Looking forward to seeing how people fare without it here.

[Speedy Plysitkos]

Even its a test (PTR), such ideas like removing flashing when hit shouldnt been there AT ALL.

STUPID ever.

Edited by Titannium, 14 October 2015 - 04:30 AM.

[Speedy Plysitkos]

Troutmonkey, on 13 October 2015 - 10:16 PM, said:

What we need is
3. Blue cursor - You shot a friendly you idiot!

this please with the text message FONT 70 over the screen, thank you.

Edited by Titannium, 14 October 2015 - 04:36 AM.

[Jetfire]

I actually like this a lot, how is your targeting computer figuring out that you did damage so far away you can't even see the mech through all the trees and fog?

This means you actually need to close range or get locks to snipe effectively. Sounds like a good move gameplay wise.

[Doman Hugin]

So apart from it being "a computer game" tell us how your hud should know you've hit a target that your sensors can't see?

[Yellonet]

I always thought it was way too arcady to get info of whether your hit your target or not. I say this is a very good change.

The red flashing reticle is being abused, for instance, hide behind foliage or shoot through foliage towards enemy position, when the reticle turns red you just keep shooting there.

Edited by Yellonet, 14 October 2015 - 04:46 AM.

[MeiSooHaityu]

You still have visual indicators of weapon strikes even without a red ridicule flash. Just look for the glowing armor (if you have it turned on anyway). Plus if the enemy reacts, that's normally an indicator too (if not a bit delayed).

Really, the biggest benefit of having that red reticule flash is long range sniper strikes or LRMs hitting their target if lock is broken when they are in mid flight.

Overall I'm not sure how I think of the removal of the reticule flash, but I'm not ready to grab the torches and pitchforks yet.

Let's see how real noticeable the removal is when people play the test server, and see if it really does seem to help shift more emphasis on info warfare.

[Widowmaker1981]

PholkLorr, on 13 October 2015 - 09:10 PM, said:

Even in most other FPS shooters, people like to know if they actually did damage or not.

In those other FPS, the edges of the world's objects are perfect and what you would expect. Ie. a wall blocks damage up till the edge of the wall, not beyond.

Not so in MWO. A wall/buildings/trees/anything has about 2 cm worth of invisible pixel damage proof glass that let you see through them but do 0 dmg. Imagine how frustrating it is if a player blows all his heat doing pokes, not knowing if his laser actually hit or not. At the end of the round he gets crap damage and he feels cheated and pissed.

This a VERY good point.

PGI, if you are listening, you CAN NOT remove reticule flash on dmg, unless you first go through every single map and remove every single invisible wall. Mechs hull down behind a hill / wall cannot be targeted due to >50% of the mech being concealed. People NEED to know they are doing dmg when they are visually hitting.

[Lugh]

PholkLorr, on 13 October 2015 - 09:10 PM, said:

Even in most other FPS shooters, people like to know if they actually did damage or not.

In those other FPS, the edges of the world's objects are perfect and what you would expect. Ie. a wall blocks damage up till the edge of the wall, not beyond.

Not so in MWO. A wall/buildings/trees/anything has about 2 cm worth of invisible pixel damage proof glass that let you see through them but do 0 dmg. Imagine how frustrating it is if a player blows all his heat doing pokes, not knowing if his laser actually hit or not. At the end of the round he gets crap damage and he feels cheated and pissed.

Furthermore, i think removing the red crosshair flash detracts from people's concept of fun. Fun = you shoot something, you know you hit. There needs to be a visual cue to let you know you hit. Without the red flash, you wouldn't know if you hit or not. Especially since the mechs don't spray blood or contort when hit. The only visual cue you have is a small damage glow that is very hard to see at long range.

Lastly, i think the last thing anyone was thinking about when they called for a 'rebalance' was the removal of a mechanic that most FPS shooters have expected to be there.

This doesn't "balance" anything at all since PGI is diminishing the fun for BOTH IS and Clans AND lights AND meds AND heavies AND Assaults.

Nobody asked for this change, why fix what ain't broke?! No. In this case, Why break what is fixed?!

Short Answer: Because we the ELITE pilots of PGI's development team HATE Accurate large Ballistics like Gauss and want to make that even LESS desirable.


TLDR; We are dumb. And don't think before attempting fixes.