100 replies to this topic

[Khobai]

Good riddance to ECM.

[Prof RJ Gumby]

Ecm Range Reduction By 50% = *Yes*

I guess there can't be a change that nobody whines about.

[Karl Streiger]

Livewyr, on 14 October 2015 - 08:52 PM, said:

Weak knees? It only took them 3 years. (December 4, 2012 was a dark, dark day.)

1095 times this

maybe they can tweak ECM - maybe it will need more information or a longer duration to get a lock.
It still reduces the time until your LRMs/SSRMs can lock on.
Anyhow any ECM on the field is still "primary" target.

Edited by Karl Streiger, 15 October 2015 - 12:15 AM.

[ZenFool]

No other piece of equipment has caused the havoc to balance that ecm has. Despite all the Leets saying red doritos don't matter, they still made sure to have at least one or two ecm mechs in every wave of CW. Now, with ecm equipped mechs becoming more and more common, it became obvious to almost everyone that something needed to change.
I would expect people to complain about no magic null field, but to complain about the rather arbitrary range nerf? Lets not forget that Bap, that oh so OP piece of equipment, had a range nerf in the last year or so.
This is a step in the right direction.

[Widowmaker1981]

Mystere, on 14 October 2015 - 06:44 PM, said:

ECM is now next to useless. Targetting ECM mechs is now instant. Unless you're using LRMs and SSRMs, there is no need for countermeasures or for better usage of your very own Mark 1 eyeballs. The Red Dorito is now the undisputed king.

Is that confirmed?

I was unsure after reading the notes whether ECM would function to delay the Dorito appearing for 3 seconds after coming into LOS. If that was how it worked, id be happy with the changes - they could simply alter that 3 second value to balance it.

If Doritos appear instantly as soon as you have LOS, with ECM, then ECM is useless for any purpose other than 'im a light mech and wish to make it harder to use streaks on me' If that is the case it is a FORKING TERRIBLE change. good job deleting ECM and any mechs that relied on it to be at all useful (hi, Shadow Cat)

Karl Streiger, on 15 October 2015 - 12:15 AM, said:

1095 times this

maybe they can tweak ECM - maybe it will need more information or a longer duration to get a lock.
It still reduces the time until your LRMs/SSRMs can lock on.
Anyhow any ECM on the field is still "primary" target.

Why? What is it doing that messes with you? making your LRMs take too long to lock on? Better solution is to not being LRMs. If it does not deny doritos, ECM is functionally useless against good players.

[Karl Streiger]

Widowmaker1981, on 15 October 2015 - 02:31 AM, said:

Why? What is it doing that messes with you? making your LRMs take too long to lock on? Better solution is to not being LRMs. If it does not deny doritos, ECM is functionally useless against good players.

There is always the option that there are LRMs in the field, first.
But ECM is not a counter for LRMs. I expect that the time till lock eg. will rise in future sessions, to make it more critical without going back to the Jesus Box.

Well of course good players think they know how to play well with ECM - but the story is you don't know how the game was before ECM. The Jesus Box after its first appearance give you a shield - there were battles in my DDC not even got a scratch: because of the convergence time (what is now the reduced damage without lock on) - ECM = no lock = no converging weapons.
When TAG had a range of 450m i started do pick out ECM mechs and kill them - using LRMs.

Don't expect that Gauss or ERPPC will be unharmed when the "Lock On" becomes the most important thing in MWO again.

[H LaWMaN H]

Dropping the range of ECM is not a good idea as been in a light Mech ppl stand on your legs as it is now taking a leg off before you know it, if the range is less they will just stand on you to stay in cover killing you outright as they all try to stay under ECM cover. you guys need to think of the big picture here.

[Charles Sennet]

The assertion that LRMs are not viable in today's game is incorrect. My unit has been utilizing LRMs in group matches and CW to great effect. With TAG, NARC, and UAVs, LRMs are devastating. To maximize its effectiveness it does require the team to get organized to support it but last I checked this is a team game that rewards cooperation. What the current system does do is limit the ability for a solo pilot to rain hell on anyone from 1000 meters away without doing much work. If you over-nerf ECM, then get ready for the LRM fest again. Every noob pilot will bring them because they'll be able to sit back with their fusionaire in one hand and spamming LRMs as they watch TV and pet their cat and still rack up damage and kills.

[Livewyr]

ECM isn't even dead, it's just less powerful.

If you notice in the Patch notes, they have not implemented target acquisition time. When this is implemented, ECM will also increase target acquisition time making the mech harder to hit/damage with lasers as well as being more difficult to lock with missiles.

It's losing it's missile shield, and gaining a laser and missile soft counter.

I will still mount it on my mechs, but it is not a cost/benefit requirement anymore.

[Hellzero]

First things first, I had always hated how the Guardian ECM was portrayed in the game: http://goo.gl/6kEwpo
- It's supposed to be personal, not a bubble for the nearby mechs. As another person said it well in here: "It was made to counter NARCs/TAG/such".

This is what the present Guardian ECM is like, the Angel ECM: http://goo.gl/EV6MQW
- This isn't what it's supposed to be like in the game. Hence, with the coming of one of the most powerful Lights present in the game, the Arctic Cheetah, all I see here is people wanting the GECM to do something it never had intended to do(hence the Magic Box title).

So honestly... I am more seeing the ECM being brought in to line of what it is supposed to be. As for the LRMs, by standard they are really inaccurate if fired "standard", especially on lights. I wouldn't mind even if they would be made somewhat more inaccurate.
- Artemis IV + TAG/NARC sure helps, but bottom line is it's a weapon system that is supposed to be viable. ECM is a hard counter to a whole weapon system right now, that it isn't supposed to be.

The fine line needs to be drawn there, between the lines, as I sure as hell know what people would think if the Steiner "Laser Armour" would be implemented in the game(http://goo.gl/mQvLZU), and it would render the Lasers down 50%. Now that, ladies & gentlemen, would be a day of rage..
***

But as things stand, the AMS should in my opinion be made even more viable against LRM fire. For right now, a lance with AMS can counter well incoming fire from LRMs, but I believe it can be "boosted" still from where it is at, and lessen the pressure put on the ECM.
- The direction is right, in my opinion(with the ECM), but AMS should be made even more... "viable & tempting", for its users(the type of "never leave home without it").

[Screech]

Range nerf doesn't matter because ECM is not worth the tonnage. 1 and 1/2 tons for a 3 second delay is worthless. For many this is what they want but it definitely what it is. Not looking forward to the static gameplay this will induce but this is the bed that was made.

[sycocys]

The scan time effects haven't been added back in yet. That will change stuff up a little, and it will put ecm in a far more proper place for everyone that isn't an elite tryhard that claims it doesn't matter if all 12 on the other side have ecm anyhow.

Possibly one of the biggest effects is that those same people won't have the free info/target shield that gives them that fair amount of additional protection against any team they face with less play time together.

I recall HBR's coming out for c-bills and nearly every clan team running 6-8 ecm per wave while shouting to everyone else that ecm count doesn't matter, they don't need targets - well that's pretty easy to say when you can target and the other team can not. Even in the low info tech world, having an uber info shield makes a huge difference. This change will inevitably do some work to balance that back out.

[Livewyr]

Screech, on 15 October 2015 - 05:30 AM, said:

Range nerf doesn't matter because ECM is not worth the tonnage. 1 and 1/2 tons for a 3 second delay is worthless. For many this is what they want but it definitely what it is. Not looking forward to the static gameplay this will induce but this is the bed that was made.

You forget... it's in addition to acquisition time. (Which is not in the PTS.)


Shortsighted people are shortsighted.


(Also, 3 seconds is an eternity when you're popping up in a light/medium mech.)

[Tesunie]

GZBLASTERMASTER, on 14 October 2015 - 04:02 PM, said:

Let's let this crybaby...
...No No No No...

I couldn't resist a bit of bad paraphrasing...

Silliness aside now...

GZBLASTERMASTER, on 14 October 2015 - 04:02 PM, said:

Trash the range nerf please, disabling with current tactics and methods already in place is more than fair enough(???)

I'd have to say... No. It may be a refreashing change to actually get locks on more targets, especially seen as now not only LRMs/SSRMs need locks, but so do lasers (to deal full damage at range). As an LRM user, I've had to just about jump through 20ft high flaming hoops just to get a lock, typically not even for long enough for a missile lock, and rarely for an entire flight of missiles to actually land on target. (Unless someone NARCed, played dedicated spotter at their own health risk, or a UAV was deployed and the enemy actually didn't shoot it down.)

I, personally, kinda like the sounds of the delayed lock on. Protects for darting and scouting movements, not so good if you want an anti-LRM shield while standing out in the open. And the reduced range makes it so that not all of an entire 12 man team can hide under one umbrella. (Do recall, the original range of ECM coverage to teammates was based on the TT system. In that system, a mech took up a grid location on its own, which meant only so many units could be affected by ECM coverage (not to mention ECM didn't do half of what it does now). In MW:O, a lot more mechs can fit into the 180m, as we don't take up large grid locations on our own. (Our mechs don't occupy a 60m area, unlike TT.))

[Screech]

Livewyr, on 15 October 2015 - 05:36 AM, said:

You forget... it's in addition to acquisition time. (Which is not in the PTS.)


Shortsighted people are shortsighted.


(Also, 3 seconds is an eternity when you're popping up in a light/medium mech.)

You can pretend that doubling the time will matter all you want. For anyone in a medium or light the radar dep module will more then adequately cover for the new ECM and be tonnage free.

Just because you don't see it yet doesn't mean it ain't there. You know, shortsighted people are shortsighted and all.

[sycocys]

What makes you think the function of Radar Dep is going to stay the same and not be turned into a decay reduction?

Easy enough for PGI to just refund all the modules in the game when they rebalance them to be useful. People are being far to short-sighted with this (I can understand given some of PGI's history) but PGI actually seems to want to put in the work to re-balance and deepen out the entire system this time around.

Re-balancing will have to include everything from weapons and sinks to modules, skills and the base mech effects we've seen some of already -- there's no reason to not think that they won't be looking into it all given the extensive level they've actually shown to have gone to make some new mechanics already.

And seriously - this is coming from a guy that has been hyper critical of the many things PGI does, actually being able to see some promise in what they are attempting to do here. It's super weird seeing them not only make an actual thought out attempt at this, but also being one of the people that isn't railing Paul and Russ - because for a change their concepts actually make sense in the scope of the game and adding depth, flavor and most importantly much needed balance.

[Anachronda]

Kraftwerkedup, on 14 October 2015 - 04:05 PM, said:

No.

Your magic Jesus box is no moar.

So make it less a "Jesus box" and more like TT if that's what you're after. OP was saying go ahead with the other nerfs, just don't nerf the range at which it is effective.

[sycocys]

Anachronda, on 15 October 2015 - 07:04 AM, said:

So make it less a "Jesus box" and more like TT if that's what you're after. OP was saying go ahead with the other nerfs, just don't nerf the range at which it is effective.

It's just the new baseline, and without the scan times/adjusted per mech values in the mix which will make a difference on its effectiveness.

I'm all for re-looking at its overall range once those things are implemented and we can see better how it works with its reduced range with most of the systems in place - but it still shouldn't be a deathball blanket in any shape or form, even if that is slowing locks only.

[Mystere]

Widowmaker1981, on 15 October 2015 - 02:31 AM, said:

Is that confirmed?

I was unsure after reading the notes whether ECM would function to delay the Dorito appearing for 3 seconds after coming into LOS. If that was how it worked, id be happy with the changes - they could simply alter that 3 second value to balance it.

If Doritos appear instantly as soon as you have LOS, with ECM, then ECM is useless for any purpose other than 'im a light mech and wish to make it harder to use streaks on me' If that is the case it is a FORKING TERRIBLE change. good job deleting ECM and any mechs that relied on it to be at all useful (hi, Shadow Cat)

In the PTS, the 3-second delay applies to the targeting information, not to targeting itself. The targeting delay is set to 0 on the PTS.

Supposedly, there will be targeting delay in production. But we do not know yet what that value will be per mech. Who knows? It must just be 0 in the end -- and that is what worries me.

Frankly, they should have also added some value for targeting delay for this test.

[Mystere]

Pjwned, on 14 October 2015 - 10:19 PM, said:

A 3 second target delay is hardly instant, and I hope you remember that the base target delay for all mechs is set to 0 right now on the PTS, and it's not going to stay that way meaning the total target delay will be even higher in the end.

That 3-second delay only applies to acquiring targeting information. Target acquisition as they apply to lasers, on the other hand, is instant.

Pjwned, on 14 October 2015 - 10:19 PM, said:

ECM isn't useless just because it's not going to be a jesus box, FFS this sort of complaining just makes me annoyed.

It is next to useless in the current context of the PTS test simply because of the zero target acquisition delay. There is no point in testing ECM beyond the new 90-meter bubble.

Pjwned, on 14 October 2015 - 10:19 PM, said:

I guess if you ignore every other change to information warfare, then yeah that would be accurate.

See above.

Pjwned, on 14 October 2015 - 10:19 PM, said:

Are you really going to cry about ECM being nerfed because of streaks and LRMs not being hot garbage? They're still not even that good with ECM as good as it is (even with the current nerfs) on top of the weapons themselves not being that good, and in addition to that you have NO EXCUSE to not equip AMS, but the problem is guided missiles actually being used at all?

I don't think it gives you much credibility to complain about ECM nerfs because of too many LRMs & SSRMs (correct me if I'm wrong here) when the answer to that is to bring AMS if you can't already handle playing against those weapons (i.e taking proper cover and not suicide rushing a streak boat with your Locust) without an ECM crutch.

You obviously misread me. I am warning players of the incoming SSRM and LRM rain so they can prepare themselves. I also predict vast flowing rivers of male nerd rage tears once the rain starts pouring.

Me complain about missiles? <maniacal >

Pjwned, on 14 October 2015 - 10:19 PM, said:

This I agree with however, 3/3/3/3 is crap but I'm optimistic since PGI seemed to indicate they want to move away from weight class restrictions for the group queue.

I do not think that is ever going to happen because of the 12 Dire Wolf Bogeyman Scenario (or is that the 12 Meta Timber Wolf Bogeyman thingy -- I can't tell anymore because of all of these bogeymen people constantly cry about. ).

Pjwned, on 14 October 2015 - 10:19 PM, said:

It's almost as if AMS should be the primary counter to missile-based weapon systems.

Holy crap, who would've thought?

I never said otherwise.