100 replies to this topic

[Khobai]

Agreed. The stealth portion of ECM should only affect the equipped mech. The lock-on time/detailed target info time increases should still apply to all mechs inside the ECM bubble though.

Stealth needs to be MASSIVELY nerfed to restore a place for missiles in the game again. Half-range magic jesus box is still way too strong and fails to address ANY of the problems with ECM.

Radar Deprivation also needs to be massively nerfed.

Edited by Khobai, 14 November 2015 - 02:20 AM.

[no1337]

yeah ecm stealth for ecm eq. mech, rest is just harder to lock on. maybe when you kiss the ecm mech's arse you get the ecm shield as well but thats it.

[Livewyr]

Battletech has precedent for having stealth on your mech.
It's actually even called "Stealth armor" (which is a mix of ECM and Nullsig tech)

The thing is, having stealth is such a big deal (because it is, especially when it essentially makes a class of weapons into comparative dead weight) that it took up 7 tons, 7 critslots, and generated a constant 10 heat while active. That's balance.


This 1-1.5 ton piece of Jesus box needs to stick to what it was designed to do- countering level 2 tech.

[Widowmaker1981]

Livewyr, on 17 November 2015 - 04:53 AM, said:

Battletech has precedent for having stealth on your mech.
It's actually even called "Stealth armor" (which is a mix of ECM and Nullsig tech)

The thing is, having stealth is such a big deal (because it is, especially when it essentially makes a class of weapons into comparative dead weight) that it took up 7 tons, 7 critslots, and generated a constant 10 heat while active. That's balance.


This 1-1.5 ton piece of Jesus box needs to stick to what it was designed to do- countering level 2 tech.

Thats really disingenous to be fair, Stealth Armour's effects in TT are far more powerful than ECM's effect in MWO, (aside from its effect on LRMs, which need to be re-designed anyway). It is NOT harder to hit an ECM mech than it is Normal mech, its just slightly easier to spot mechs when they have a dorito on them...

Put it this way: If Stealth Armour existed in MWO (and all ECM did was counter BAP/Artemis), at 7 tons and 7 slots, and all it did was dorito denial, would anyone use it? No, they would not. In order for it to be worth that kind of tonnage it would have to be literally a stealth system, i.e. predator like invisibility camo.

[Karl Streiger]

A Mech Game with "better" information warfare:
http://wiki.mechlivi....php?title=AECM

Quote

AECM, or Angel ECM, is an experimental updated version of the Guardian ECM (GECM) Suite, and greatly advances ECM technology on the battlefield. Rather then making the user harder to detect on Radar, the AECM creates a 300m "umbrella" (150m in every direction) of signal distortion that makes all friendly units in range harder to detect by reducing their radar detection range by 500m.
Essentially, AECM gives GECM to friendly units that stay within a 150m radius. An asset with AECM does not give itself GECM. Assets with AECM do not provide GECM to other assets with AECM, both will be detected as normal assets without GECM.
Additionally AECM provides NARC cover for friendlies under it's umbrella:

• NARCs fired on units under the umbrella will never activate
  
• an already active NARC will be ineffective while the unit it is on is under AECM cover

When two assets, with AECM active, are next to each other, neither one will count as having GECM.

Quote

The Guardian Electronic CounterMeasure Suite, or GECM, is an advanced electronic warfare suite that can be used to reduce the range at which enemy units can detect you on Radar, and can be mounted on both Mechs and Vehicles. In MWLL, this effect is represented by a unit's radar signature being reduced by 500 meters. This does not stack on top of a unit's reduced signature when in Passive Radar mode.
Regardless of GECM, the moment an asset overheats, they are equally visible to having no radar protection and running in Active Radar.

I think best described in two modes: cover for you OR cover for your team (yes you give you team cover you can be detected and even targeted. This means ECM is an asset that have to be used more carefull - it also break up the "death" ball -because you can't say for sure if that other guy uses ECM for himself or does he sacrifice his armor to give it to the team.

sharing data:
http://wiki.mechlivi...ex.php?title=C3

Quote

LRM Launchers and Indirect Fire

The arcing trajectory of LRM launchers makes them ideal for indirect fire support, with the launching unit protected by a wall or ridge. In order to work, however, the launching unit(s) require the aid of a spotter equipped with either TAG or NARC. With the spotter designating targets the LRM's can be fired in the direction of the target and will attempt to home in on the marked unit. One very important thing to keep in mind is that the LRM launching units must be operating under Active Radar in order for their missiles to track the TAGed or NARCed unit.

Those more or less minor changes - will have great impact on MWO

[Zibmo]

Mystere, on 14 October 2015 - 06:18 PM, said:

I'm going to be the contrarian to the alleged prevailing opinion and dare say that I like ECM as it is today just fine. The nerf is nothing but a weak-kneed response to incessant and loud whining. PGI once again succumbed and surrendered while being on their hands and knees.

That's a shame because ...

I like that killing the enemy ECM carrier needs to become priority #1 and that that job is made much more difficult as the number of ECMs carried by the enemy increases.

I like that the onus is on the ECM deficient side to neutralize the enemy's advantage.

And finally, I like hunting and killing ECM carriers.

We are, as usual, going to disagree. There are currently (in my opinion, humble though it may be) too many ECM capable mechs in the game. This has had the effect of basically making two different weapons systems completely useless. I was going to say obsolete, but even obsolete equipment can have some use. Anything that adds to some diversity in the game and makes lights more aware of their teams is, in my opinion, a good thing. Because gauss/laser/ppc vomit is boring.

You can still hunt and kill ECM carriers. They will still be present in large volumes. That won't change. What WILL change is that area denial will consist of a bit more than arty/airstrike (with any luck).

[Mystere]

Zibmo, on 17 November 2015 - 07:05 AM, said:

We are, as usual, going to disagree. There are currently (in my opinion, humble though it may be) too many ECM capable mechs in the game. This has had the effect of basically making two different weapons systems completely useless. I was going to say obsolete, but even obsolete equipment can have some use. Anything that adds to some diversity in the game and makes lights more aware of their teams is, in my opinion, a good thing. Because gauss/laser/ppc vomit is boring.

You can still hunt and kill ECM carriers. They will still be present in large volumes. That won't change. What WILL change is that area denial will consist of a bit more than arty/airstrike (with any luck).

I think you missed one subtle point. It is the challenge of neutralizing the enemy team's large area of denial that I find challenging and therefore like. Killing off the ECMs is just a means to an end.

[The Lost Boy]

With the reduction in range wont it be esier for ECM mechs to stalk prey? Less warning time for low signal? I think in this pass the ecm is still working as before, just with reduced range. So imgine pairs pairs of chettahs being even more stealthy?

[Fubbit]

I'm kinda miffed they put back the ECM stealth feature.
I think it is better gone, with or without new sensor rules.
I have some hope it was a mistake.
I would love to see a Developer's thoughts on this.

[50 50]

The ECM has been brought into line with the info warfare mechanics.
We might expect certain mechs to be better ECM carriers than others thanks to these attributes.
I also think that at some point down the track, perhaps when the skill trees are looked at, that we will see skills and modules relating to the ECM.
This will allow for a much greater level of customisation for roles and effectiveness in them.

I think with the PTS4 reset where they are not focussing on the info warfare and are now looking at mech quirks that the ECM has simply gone back to it's current default.
We will see it again later.

Edited by 50 50, 19 November 2015 - 06:57 PM.

[CainenEX]

Alot of QQ to game balance. You still outrange and out damage IS.
Magic 1 ton 1 slot jesus box is a problem and it's not been nerfed enough.
Looking forward to seeing their stealth dorito dissappear with info tech changes.
I want depth to ECM, not something that is so hard to counter so so little to equip.

Edited by CainenEX, 21 November 2015 - 07:09 AM.

[Wibbledtodeath]

ECM just needs to be uncoupled from lrm/streak balance. By itself its fine. Only when it area shields from missile locks is it a problem. If lrms get velocity increase but can only use tag\narc for indirect fire then ecm and lrms could be balanced independently.

[Tesunie]

Wibbledtodeath, on 24 November 2015 - 10:04 PM, said:

ECM just needs to be uncoupled from lrm/streak balance. By itself its fine. Only when it area shields from missile locks is it a problem. If lrms get velocity increase but can only use tag\narc for indirect fire then ecm and lrms could be balanced independently.

For as long as LRMs (and SSRMs to somw extent, considering BAP) require locks to be of proper use, then as long as ECM disrupts the ability to acquire a target lock at range (for LRMs), then ECM should be adjusted.

As far as "Indirect only with NARC and TAG", I'd have to disagree. That would practically remove the only advantage LRMs have over other weapons. Otherwise, they are:
- Heavy weapon systems.
- Ammo hungry (to the point that ballistic builds seem like light eaters).
- Hot (depending upon use and quantity, of course).
- Crit heavy (when you include the typical amount of ammo needed).
- Has maps with spots that makes LRMs completely irrelevant (or extremely hard to use at best).
- Deals massive spread damage.
- Requires a target lock to function properly. Now you'd have to basically get your own locks (which isn't a bad thing to do anyway).
- Remove indirect fire, and you remove almost any point of not taking Artemis. (Artemis only works when you have line of sight.)
- LRMs are also the only weapon to (politely even) inform you that they are incoming, and that finding cover/breaking lock may be a good idea in the shortly coming future. (Other weapons just rudely slam into you, and not even apologize for it!)
- Removes utility and support abilities of taking LRMs, even in small numbers. (Many of my assault mechs seem to find room for an LRM10 as an "I'm getting into direct fire position, but until I can, here's some help!" support weapon.)

LRMs would need far more than a buff in speed to counter it's loss of indirect capability (and then you'd have people claiming LRMpocalypse/LRMagadon all over again anyway).



I have a few different concepts of LRMs, and how they should behave. It's a little off topic from ECM, but...
- LRMs should all share the same spread. LRM5s should spread as much as an LRM20 does. AKA: (spread numbers able to be changed.) Set all LRM spread to that of an LRM15 default, and the spread of an LRM10 with Artemis/TAG/NARC in effect. You could have indirect fired LRM spread even more, to what the current LRM20 spread is even (LRM15 type spread with TAG/NARC in effect). This would place LRM20s back into a place of use, and remove LRM5 spamming being the "best way to use LRMs". It would still be an option, but expect those LRM5s to spread more then, dealing sandpaper damage. Meanwhile, an LRM20 would be worth it's weight, as it would land a more concentrated amount of damage per volley.
- ECM (actually on topic) could provide a targeting delay (already tested to some degree on the PTS). This would prevent people from using ECM as an anti-LRM umbrella and standing out in the open with it, and instead keep it in a reconnaissance or team support item in a manner of making locks slightly harder to acquire, but not "near impossible" as it currently is. (AKA: If you dart between cover, you would remain stealthed. If you just stand out in the open ground, after a short while the enemy will be able to target you, and rain LRM fire on you for standing out in the open for so long.)
- With above changes, LRMs may even be able to get a speed increase still? Would certainly be helpful, but not a necessity.

[no1337]

Ecm Range Reduction By 50% = YES

[Lanstrike]

Why not just make the ECM jamming/disrupting other mechs 90 and the coverage for teams 180? That kinda meets a half way sweet spot. Allowing players to cover teammates and support the team at it was intended to do in the first place?

You are encouraging ECM mechs to abandon the team because it doesn't cover as many players as before.. Can you not see how that hurts teamwork?

Edited by Lanstrike, 07 December 2015 - 02:53 PM.

[Tesunie]

Lanstrike, on 07 December 2015 - 02:52 PM, said:

Why not just make the ECM jamming/disrupting other mechs 90 and the coverage for teams 180? That kinda meets a half way sweet spot. Allowing players to cover teammates and support the team at it was intended to do in the first place?

You are encouraging ECM mechs to abandon the team because it doesn't cover as many players as before.. Can you not see how that hurts teamwork?

Do consider that ECM is a 1.5 ton piece of equipment. The problem hasn't been it's ability to disrupt enemy mechs at 180m, the problem has been that it can provide (with only one ECM and a properly coordinated team) complete locking coverage for many mechs.

The team cloak needed to be reduced out of all it's effects. If anything, keeping the cloaking at 180 and dropping the disruption of enemy mechs to 90m would actually make ECM even stronger than it was. It would prevent players from knowing that there is a nearby enemy ECM mech from the hazing effects to their hud/minimap, and provide the continued (and now would be enhanced compared to "detection" ranges) team protection in return.

If anything, the 90m reduction has made ECM a bit more solo styled and stronger in that aspect, and weakened it's team effects only moderately. 90m radius (a 180m diameter) is still a rather large sphere of influence for teammates. Now instead of needing only a single ECM (which can still work, but you have to be closer now), a team may require two or three ECM mechs to provide coverage to their team (and would actually be better, adding more flexible tactics to ECM).


ECM was actually, even by lore, never intended to stop LRMs or locks at range. Hinder, but not stop. It was to deny information, or provide incorrect information (additional sensor ghosts, improper mech ID or for MWO damage displays, etc). Currently, the cloak like effect is a bit out of character for what it should do. If it was cloaking locks only, then the current counters would be acceptable. However, ECM also delays missile lock acquisition on top of stopping a mech from getting a lock on. This creates a bit of a double penalty to mechs that may require locks (such as LRMs and SSRMs), as even if they can get a lock via TAG or UAV as an example, it is still taking a long time to get a missile lock on top of that. This double stack of disruption is what I feel is truly what makes ECM too powerful. (SSRMs have an easier time, as BAP is now a counter equipment that completely turns off ECM, unlike TAG, UAV and NARC (to some extent), preventing LRMs from having any foot hold in an ECM rich environment.)


ECM shouldn't disable and remove an entire weapon system from game play. Sadly, that is what it is currently doing. Thus, it needs adjustments, and this is actually (in my opinion of course) a step in the right direction.

[o0Marduk0o]

Lostdragon, on 14 October 2015 - 04:08 PM, said:

ECM in its current implementation is the most powerful 1 or 1.5 tons of equipment you can put on a mech. It is just too good currently, I think the nerfs bring it more in line with where it should be.

This change makes ecm even better. Enemies only notice that you are there, when you are within 90m.

[Lyoto Machida]

Lanstrike, on 07 December 2015 - 02:52 PM, said:

Why not just make the ECM jamming/disrupting other mechs 90 and the coverage for teams 180? That kinda meets a half way sweet spot. Allowing players to cover teammates and support the team at it was intended to do in the first place?

You are encouraging ECM mechs to abandon the team because it doesn't cover as many players as before.. Can you not see how that hurts teamwork?

That wasn't what Guardian ECM was meant to do in the first place...

Let's say any mech could carry ECM instead of how it's limited now. If you had to pick only one thing to take for 1.5 tons, would you take ECM, BAP or AMS?

I'd take ECM every time and that's no joke. It's not balanced.

[Inglix]

Hey, I'll take nerfing ecm 50% for the missile boat whiners if I can mount it in any chassis. Yes, ANY chassis. Heck, at that point I'll take it only covering one mech. In PUGs vs pre-made, if you run into a pre-made with missile batteries and you're not ECM, you're pretty much pooched. You don't even get to see the mechs causing the most damage.

The retort "join a unit" is also not a valid response. Some people do not want, or have the time, to join a unit. I can just as easily tell missile people to "go play community warfare" for all that's worth.

[SkippyT72]

I'm sure you will hear this and its true to a point of if every mech can mount it then MWO loses some of it's "Flavor", that said there are enough ECM mechs that the range reduction is a nice balance to that the range on it was.