75 replies to this topic

[MischiefSC]

Tarogato, on 15 October 2015 - 07:36 PM, said:

You must not play as fast-paced a game as the rest of us do. I certainly don't have time to lock every single target I shoot at that's outside my "maximum unlocked optimum range".

Then you may need to change up a bit or hit R more often. I get that it's a whole button. All by itself. If I really, really had to I could map it to a thumb button on my mouse but oh golly gee whiz, won't anyone think of the children? How can I manage to do that and still get everything done I need to do in a day?

You don't need to wait for anything. Just target what's in your crosshairs. No need for a paperdoll, just fill the dorito. That's the price for getting 60% resistance on most laser fire. Especially from people who are too lazy or clumsy to do that themselves. If you play such a crazy, wild and frantic run on lights I bet you can figure it out. Given that you have over two seconds of cycle time between shots even on small lasers I'm confident you can find the button in time.

I am beyond amused and getting in to shocked as we see how many people just.... can't be arsed to lock targets. It's too much. Too hard. Too complicated. ZOMG, LOCK TARGETS?!?! CAN NOT BE DONE! IMPOSSIBLE!

I can't recall the last time I didn't lock a target I was shooting at. Light, heavy, assault, medium, doesn't matter. Even if I'm not shooting them, if I have an option for a full dorito I take it. It benefits my whole team. It also tends to increase my cbill and xp payout significantly. I don't recall the last time I watched a video of a comp tier player who wasn't locking the holy living **** out of anything and everything that could potentially be locked. There probably are some but I can't picture anyone who really roxxors the boxxors saying 'locking targets is a waste of time/I don't have time to do it'.

Do it. It's really simple. It's less effort looking at the map to see your position relative to the rest of your team. Everyone does that, right?

Right?

If you're a light, lock targets. If you use lasers, lock targets. If you're playing the game and using any weapon and doing anything, if in fact you are playing MW:O at all even in the practice area, lock targets. Constantly. All the time. Every target. Always. That goes along with 'don't run out of bounds' and 'try not to wander into the other team and power down' in terms of advice.

Lock the targets. Lock them. Don't make me get a Shia LaBouf gif.

[Jarl Dane]

You totally missed Tarogato's point.

[MischiefSC]

Mech The Dane, on 15 October 2015 - 09:29 PM, said:

You totally missed Tarogato's point.

I'll repeat exactly what he said:

Tarogato, on 15 October 2015 - 07:36 PM, said:

You must not play as fast-paced a game as the rest of us do. I certainly don't have time to lock every single target I shoot at that's outside my "maximum unlocked optimum range".

He's saying he doesn't have time to lock every single target he shoots at that's outside his max unlocked optimum range.

The solution is, and remains, lock the targets. I have faith in the ability to press one button. It's over 2 seconds between weapon cycles. When you shoot your lasers you've got over 2 seconds before you shoot them again. That's enough time to lock a target, unless you're point blank and they're in and out of focus - in which case you don't need to lock them.

Go ahead and play it. I've been watching people rock out in Commandos. I did better in my Jenner than I have in a year or more. I get that it's a change and nobody likes that but it's not really a big deal unless someone doesn't bother to lock targets or doesn't have that habit. In which case....

develop that habit. If you can click a button to shoot the target you can click a button to lock the target. It's not somehow more effort to do one than the other. Locking is easier; you don't even have to line the target up yet.

This whole thing is hugely overblown.

[Tarogato]

MischiefSC, on 15 October 2015 - 09:34 PM, said:

He's saying he doesn't have time to lock every single target he shoots at that's outside his max unlocked optimum range.

The solution is, and remains, lock the targets. I have faith in the ability to press one button. It's over 2 seconds between weapon cycles. When you shoot your lasers you've got over 2 seconds before you shoot them again. That's enough time to lock a target, unless you're point blank and they're in and out of focus - in which case you don't need to lock them.

Go ahead and play it. I've been watching people rock out in Commandos. I did better in my Jenner than I have in a year or more. I get that it's a change and nobody likes that but it's not really a big deal unless someone doesn't bother to lock targets or doesn't have that habit. In which case....

develop that habit. If you can click a button to shoot the target you can click a button to lock the target. It's not somehow more effort to do one than the other. Locking is easier; you don't even have to line the target up yet.

This whole thing is hugely overblown.

I'll quote a situation I provided in a Reddit comment earlier.

"I was sitting on theta on Mining Collective, poked around a corner, saw a DWF that was only about 130m away, alpha'd him with 8x SPL, and slinked back to cover before he could return fire. But because I wasn't locked, my SPLs only did about 24 damage as opposed to the full 32. Only because I decided to make a quick nimble poke and didn't have time to press R while jumpjetting forward, sticking my landing with my full-stop key being careful to not overshoot and fall off the ledge, realising there was a DWF there, turning and reversing throttle on the landing to make myself a difficult target to hit, and firing my weapons and torso twisting after the shot. For all that effort, I'm rewarded with less than 80% (an entire AC/10's worth) of my damage even though my weapons are quirked and moduled to deal damage out to 133m. And if that DWF was under an ECM? I'd have to sit there for three seconds to wait for him to be targetable so I can deal full damage at 130m with my 133m lasers or I'd have to launch a UAV or have a dedicated spotter. It's asinine."

Even in a pokey mech, like the WVR-6K, the RVN, and plenty more, you're not always afforded the reaction time to hit R before you fire, especially if you're putting effort into maneuvering your mech and trying to mitigate return fire. And once PGI introduces any sort of target acquisition delay back into the test? It will become worse. I get that the goal here is to nerf lasers and make other weapon systems more attractive, and I'm all for that end, but I'm not a proponent of this means - I think it is dumb, convoluted, and unnecessary.

[MischiefSC]

Clicking R literally takes the exact same amount of time as clicking fire. It's measured in milliseconds. It's on the fuzzy edge of what human perception can identify. About 16 milliseconds is as fine as your perception can cut it. Your computer though is significantly more sensitive.

I'm betting you have more than 1 weapon group. If you fire 2 of them at once, do you often not get the other one off before you get in to cover? No? They're almost simultaneous?

You can hit a target button and shoot without hanging in the open. You're trying to make an issue out of something that isn't. I get being resistant to feeling forced to change your habits but I'm confident that you can adjust.

[Benjamin Davion]

Mischief, I would back off making aspersions on people's abilities if you don't know who you're talking to. If you insist, I'm quite happy to prove my skills against yours in any way you see fit. I have my targeting key right on my mouse, easy to get to, I hit it all the time, and I'm telling you, in a Firestarter or a Spider, in a high intensity fight, I do not necessarily have the time to lock targets as I go zipping by, especially if there's ECM involved. Hell, I've been in situations of engaging two mechs simultaneously, one with torso weapons and one with arms, how do you propose I lock my targets in that situation?

Beyond that, as it was said earlier, this definitely feels like a ham-fisted attempt to force people into the 'info-tech' BS, and as we've said, it's not going to work. The meta is going to immediately shift straight back to Gauss/PPC pinpoint. It's a simple matter of efficiency. Firepower is king and that's all that really matters. BearFlag said it very well earlier, they made a radical change to the game that made lasers dominant, the quirkening, so now they're scrambling around making these ridiculous arbitrary changes that make no logical sense. And frankly, it's ridiculous and borderline insulting that my ability to make a snap-shot on a target in less time than it takes to lock them is actually penalized in favor of players with less skill who take more time to line up a shot. Question being, is that the whole point of this exercise?

[Lily from animove]

MischiefSC, on 15 October 2015 - 09:34 PM, said:

I'll repeat exactly what he said:



He's saying he doesn't have time to lock every single target he shoots at that's outside his max unlocked optimum range.

The solution is, and remains, lock the targets. I have faith in the ability to press one button. It's over 2 seconds between weapon cycles. When you shoot your lasers you've got over 2 seconds before you shoot them again. That's enough time to lock a target, unless you're point blank and they're in and out of focus - in which case you don't need to lock them.

Go ahead and play it. I've been watching people rock out in Commandos. I did better in my Jenner than I have in a year or more. I get that it's a change and nobody likes that but it's not really a big deal unless someone doesn't bother to lock targets or doesn't have that habit. In which case....

develop that habit. If you can click a button to shoot the target you can click a button to lock the target. It's not somehow more effort to do one than the other. Locking is easier; you don't even have to line the target up yet.

This whole thing is hugely overblown.

thats not how MWO works, if you have 2 seconds time betwen laserhsots you should be behind a cover in thsi time, not in the open, and in cover you cannot target someone. and when not in cover, PRAY that the opponent doens't have AC's and PPc's and gauss, because he won't care about any locks.

You saw people rock out commandos, because testserver is "chetaed" 0second target aquisition time + peopel "testing". under real condistions with seriou gameplay that commando is eiter low damage or fastfood.
yes clickign R is not the issues, but aquiring the target WILL BE because that WILL NOT happen instant.

[Carby]

Thoughts to throw into the mix here without clarifying or throwing my non-existent weight behind anyone else's argument:

- Change the weapons (lasers) to influence mech builds
Preferably NOT another arbitrary system. We have enough "invisible" systems already.

- Change the reward system to influence match play.
If, as people claim, PGI want people to press 'R' more, give a c-bill/XP reward for having pressed 'R' on every new mech.

I am ok with "nerfing" lights so they don't run'n'gun AS LONG AS the reward system is not almost entirely weighted towards damage as it is now. If you do more "damage" you get more "component destruction" and more "kills".
? "spotting" Useless. That's someone elses damage, not yours. Only do it if you need to.
? "flanking" Great, you positioned yourself well and farted in their direction. Doesn't mean crap unless you do some damage.
? "capping" Why bother? If possible at all, let someone else do it while you do more damage.
If you like, make a multiplier on different rewards depending on the mech size. Capping is worth 10x more to a light than an assault etc
Hell, remove the current quirks and apply the reward multipliers as quirks to get people to play mechs in their role.

Edited by Carby, 16 October 2015 - 12:22 AM.

[MischiefSC]

Benjamin Davion, on 15 October 2015 - 11:31 PM, said:

Mischief, I would back off making aspersions on people's abilities if you don't know who you're talking to. If you insist, I'm quite happy to prove my skills against yours in any way you see fit. I have my targeting key right on my mouse, easy to get to, I hit it all the time, and I'm telling you, in a Firestarter or a Spider, in a high intensity fight, I do not necessarily have the time to lock targets as I go zipping by, especially if there's ECM involved. Hell, I've been in situations of engaging two mechs simultaneously, one with torso weapons and one with arms, how do you propose I lock my targets in that situation?

Beyond that, as it was said earlier, this definitely feels like a ham-fisted attempt to force people into the 'info-tech' BS, and as we've said, it's not going to work. The meta is going to immediately shift straight back to Gauss/PPC pinpoint. It's a simple matter of efficiency. Firepower is king and that's all that really matters. BearFlag said it very well earlier, they made a radical change to the game that made lasers dominant, the quirkening, so now they're scrambling around making these ridiculous arbitrary changes that make no logical sense. And frankly, it's ridiculous and borderline insulting that my ability to make a snap-shot on a target in less time than it takes to lock them is actually penalized in favor of players with less skill who take more time to line up a shot. Question being, is that the whole point of this exercise?

So it makes sense, it does what it needs to do and it's pretty flexible without nerfing lasers across the board. Go actually show where ballistics are dominant now. I've heard that a couple of times - I've just not seen it at any point on the PTS in actual practice.

So if you simultaneously engage two targets at 200m+ in a light, bully for you. You must do it all the time, every match. Perhaps it's 90% of your playtime in a light. Thus it must be a critical, game changing, every engagement affecting alteration for you.

I don't think so though. In fact I think the whole 'shooting one target with arms and another with torso lasers all while outside 60% of weapon optimal range' thing is pretty uncommon for anyone.

Any introduction of infotech will feel 'ham-fisted' because it's a huge change. As has been said, if you don't want power creep infotech has to sell us back what we already have. Otherwise it's going to need to add in super-powers to be relevant. Again, increasing TTK means reducing existing effectiveness of firepower and not increasing it.

The concerns you are raising are not presenting themselves on the actual PTS. All I'm seeing for lights on the PTS so far, not just for myself but for others, is living longer, doing more damage and generally being a big pain in the ass without being instant death from behind. Overall TTK feels longer but less so for bigger mechs, more so for smaller ones. Again though it's early in the testing and no way to tell. What I haven't seen is ballistics replacing lasers. Lasers are still dominant. Just not by nearly as much.

If you're having trouble locking targets your opponents are likely in the same boat. That means you still exchanged fire, just damage was reduced. You did damage, just less than you used to. They did damage, just less than they used to. More often than not you'll probably find you do more than they do. Obviously results may vary. Currently though, with limited testing, results are that lights are doing better. Not worse. Why don't you test it, get 10 or 20 or 30 matches in and post actual stats from the results?

Lily from animove, on 15 October 2015 - 11:52 PM, said:

thats not how MWO works, if you have 2 seconds time betwen laserhsots you should be behind a cover in thsi time, not in the open, and in cover you cannot target someone. and when not in cover, PRAY that the opponent doens't have AC's and PPc's and gauss, because he won't care about any locks.

You saw people rock out commandos, because testserver is "chetaed" 0second target aquisition time + peopel "testing". under real condistions with seriou gameplay that commando is eiter low damage or fastfood.
yes clickign R is not the issues, but aquiring the target WILL BE because that WILL NOT happen instant.

You target from cover all the time, because your teammates are targeting people.

You're saying it won't be instant. When that happens/if that happens it can be tested and feedback given. That's not what's on the PTS right now. If you want to have a useful PTS with iterative changes.... you test what is there and give feedback specific to that. Not on hypothetical future changes, otherwise you eliminate the point of having a PTS with iterative changes.

Right now, with these changes, those things are happening and those things are working well. If you give that feedback and that gets changed for the worse you have full rights to complain. If you refuse to give feedback or test because you are scared that would happen anyway, what are you contributing?

We either want to be involved in balancing and have an iterative PTS with small changes or we don't. Please participate but do so with what is there, not with what you are afraid might happen. That just pollutes your feedback.

What I personally would like to see is weapons move a bit more towards niche roles. Not a lot, but a bit. Anything/everything is generally effective but ballistics win long trades, lasers short range, SRMs rock the brawl and LRMs... I dunno. Make flowers and sparkles. Poop unicorns or something. I'm not sure what rabbit needs pulled out of that hat for LRMs but it needs to be a talented rabbit with a little top hat of his own and a bow tie.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

Just wanted to mention that a long time ago, I reassigned my Targeting key so that I can easily update my intended Target as I move around firing.

So if the default "R" is an inconvenience, as it was for me, then reassign it to a new key.

In my case, I noticed how when I would stretch my hand to hit "R", I would sometimes lose my placing on WASD and take a precious moment to get my fingers back over the proper keys when in the heat of battle.

So I use the L-Alt key on the Keyboard, easily hit with my thumb and not too much of a burden to still be able to Jump Jet.

So now with MASC available, that function would need a new home to use L-Alt for Targeting.

[DeathWaffle]

That's not being creative at all, that's trying to find a solution when you only have 2 hours of sleep in you.

Your idea seems great at first, but when you wake up the morning after a good's night rest you're like "WTH WAS I THINKING?!"

[Randall Flagg]

*bangs head on desk*

Edited by SKINLESS, 16 October 2015 - 05:45 AM.

[sycocys]

BearFlag, on 15 October 2015 - 08:43 PM, said:

And your thoughts make perfect sense to me. The problem is the targeting computer in a shooter game is the player. Nerfing "aim" with "target lock" when all that is required for convergence is distance to target (provided by the reticule) will not be well-liked. Any adjustments the onboard computer could possibly make also only require distance to target. Any improvements to pinpoint accuracy beyond that would require some kind of active system - radar, tagging, whatever. My impression is that this nonsensical nerf is arm-twisting to get the player to press 'r' and opt into Electronic Warfare. Seen this way it's even less palatable.

There are many other ways to tone down lasers. But target lock nerf stinks of ham-handed social engineering.

I expressed in another thread that my fear is that PGI for reasons unfathomable is leaning towards fight-by-instrumentation. More cluttered and obscuring maps, new emphasis on the wrongly named "Information Warfare." To me this would be antithetical to duke it out mech combat. I'm here to shoot at mechs, not red boxes.

Maybe its time we start thinking of this as more than just a generic shooter game? Quite a few of use I think would really like and could actually handle things being more tactical like the board versions, they just need to do it in different ways than you can on paper with dice.

[seye]

Dumbing down the skillful trading part of the game so the bads don't get smashed as often, this idea belongs in the trash alongside a certain game designer

[LordBraxton]

Praetor Knight, on 15 October 2015 - 03:05 PM, said:

If anything, I think a few changes to the percent change would work.

So Larges could stay at the current 60%, Mediums get a bump to 75%, and Smalls could go to 90% or no change.


So SPLs at 121 M would only drop to 108.9 M for example.

Or MPLs at 220 M go down to 165 M.

this. Im liking the laser 'lock on' It's the first thing in MWO that soft-simulates our targeting computers

[Darian DelFord]

MischiefSC, on 15 October 2015 - 10:35 PM, said:

Clicking R literally takes the exact same amount of time as clicking fire. It's measured in milliseconds. It's on the fuzzy edge of what human perception can identify. About 16 milliseconds is as fine as your perception can cut it. Your computer though is significantly more sensitive.

I'm betting you have more than 1 weapon group. If you fire 2 of them at once, do you often not get the other one off before you get in to cover? No? They're almost simultaneous?

You can hit a target button and shoot without hanging in the open. You're trying to make an issue out of something that isn't. I get being resistant to feeling forced to change your habits but I'm confident that you can adjust.

And what your not understanding there Mr. Potato, is playing a light takes the most skill, out of any chassis. At any one point in time I have 4 Keys pressed, if not more, while piloting my Jenner.

My Optimal range is 120 Meters with my 4 SPL's. My Unloced in now 73 Meters, that is enough to smell the skid marks in the direwolfs underwear.

As a Jenner, I choose a target, accelerate, usually lock fire and go. However there are many times, cause god knows these maps are NOT big enough for 24 mechs to be on, your going to be seen, and or have situations arise where you have to get out of the line of fire of 2 or 3 other mechs, while taking pot shots as you escape, it happens all the time.

A light mech, that is evading, is not just running, he is accelerating and decelerating, juking right and jigging left, he is activating his jump jets to throw off shots, and firing up to 3 weapons groups at 1 to 3 mechs. I have my "R" key set to the num pad "3" as the num pad is my piloting station. I can tell you, that lights do not have time to lock their targets as they are trying to escape while trying to be usefull

Add to that, my average damage per match is between 400 to 500 on a win. That average has dropped to less than 300 now and I am about 50 matches in. That is a HUGE drop in damage and C-Bills. Heavies and assaults have the luxury of locking their targets at their will. Lights do not, we simply move to fast.

Not to mention, IF and its a big IF and I know this, but IF this hits live, PPC / Guass is king of the mountain again and the PPFLD will just once again reign supreme and lights will be one shotted. Hell I saw so many damn Dakka whales yesterday on the PTS it was not even funny.

This change is a yest another in a long line of direct and in-direct nerfs to lights with little thought given to the repercussions. I assume the light queue staying around 10% is just to powerful and PGI thinks they need to reduce it.

Edited by Darian DelFord, 16 October 2015 - 06:01 AM.