24 replies to this topic

[Livewyr]

So in Crimson straight, in my SHC (UAC10, 2ERML) I did the usual flanking through the valley.. and I came up on the Doomcrow at 300 meters. (A crapton of small/medium lasers.)

On the live server, that is death for a Shadowcat. (We just can't take that kind of punishment for more than a shot, we can't outrun them, nor can we put rear armor to them... we just... die.)

THIS TIME THOUGH

I popped behind a wall, then popped back out, using my ECM's 3 second delay on locking to keep his lasers at short range while I hit him with my lasers and UAC10.

Ultimately we broke contact because we were both taking a lot of punishment... but what made that exciting is that: rather than just be annihilated or mangled, I was able to use maneuvers and tech to negate his single-minded laser build.



The PTS isn't perfect...but that engagement was a hell of a lot more fun than it would have been in the live server.

[Spleenslitta]

That was a clever way to handle it.

[Mystere]

Well, if you had today's ECM, it would have even been more fun because you could have had him legged, then poked to death via dismemberment at a distance. Think of it as a "cat" toying with an injured "bird".

Nevertheless, that's a good one.

Edited by Mystere, 15 October 2015 - 02:12 PM.

[Grifthin]

Mystere, on 15 October 2015 - 02:08 PM, said:

Well, if you had today's ECM, it would have even been more fun because you could have had him legged, then poked to death via dismemberment at a distance. Think of it as a "cat" toying with an injured "bird".

Nevertheless, that's a good one.

A single UAC10 isn't legging anything without getting crippled in return. The difference in firepower is to vast for that to be practical.

[Mystere]

Grifthin, on 15 October 2015 - 03:28 PM, said:

A single UAC10 isn't legging anything without getting crippled in return. The difference in firepower is to vast for that to be practical.

It's a UAC10 + 2 ERMLs at 300+ meters -- with ECM. The crow cannot shoot what it cannot see or detect. A surprise attack, depending on victim, in the solo queue, also suffers from 2-3 seconds or more in useless "WTF?" movement and/or looking around.

[Livewyr]

Mystere, on 15 October 2015 - 04:25 PM, said:

It's a UAC10 + 2 ERMLs at 300+ meters -- with ECM. The crow cannot shoot what it cannot see or detect. A surprise attack, depending on victim, in the solo queue, also suffers from 2-3 seconds or more in useless "WTF?" movement and/or looking around.

Maximum of 34 damage if everything hit the crow. Not exactly legging damage.

[oldradagast]

Read this as:

Day One: Exploited a poorly thought out game mechanic on the PTS by causing laser damage to magically vanish with my ECM.

Day Two: Stormcrow kills me with whatever the new pinpoint meta-weapon is.

Day Three: Lasers vanish from use, fewer mechs are playable, life goes on. Thanks, PTS!

I forget - can Stormcrows mount Gauss Rifles?

Edited by oldradagast, 15 October 2015 - 06:20 PM.

[Jack Shayu Walker]

oldradagast, on 15 October 2015 - 06:18 PM, said:

Read this as:

Day One: Exploited a poorly thought out game mechanic on the PTS by causing laser damage to magically vanish with my ECM.

Day Two: Stormcrow kills me with whatever the new pinpoint meta-weapon is.

Day Three: Lasers vanish from use, fewer mechs are playable, life goes on. Thanks, PTS!

I forget - can Stormcrows mount Gauss Rifles?

Ohhhhyeah!

[Livewyr]

Well yeah, I was quite happy to defeat the meta humper exploiting a terribad system (instant pin perfect convergence) with a system designed to nerf the weapons that most abuse the (instant pin perfect convergence).

Yes.
-----------------------------
SCR will always be better than SHC in combat, but the MASC allowed to take advantage of the counter, to great effect.

I doubt lasers will vanish from use, they just won't consistently be the main weapon on nearly every meta mech.

[oldradagast]

Livewyr, on 15 October 2015 - 06:52 PM, said:

Well yeah, I was quite happy to defeat the meta humper exploiting a terribad system (instant pin perfect convergence) with a system designed to nerf the weapons that most abuse the (instant pin perfect convergence).

Yes.
-----------------------------
SCR will always be better than SHC in combat, but the MASC allowed to take advantage of the counter, to great effect.

I doubt lasers will vanish from use, they just won't consistently be the main weapon on nearly every meta mech.

Lasers are the "main weapon" because most other weapons are:
- Too heavy for the mech (most ballistics)
- Have horrible hit-registration (SRM's, PPC)
- Have far too many counters (LRM's)

Gutting lasers isn't going to fix the meta. It is just going to remove all energy-heavy mechs or light mechs from the game because they NEED effective lasers to be able to compete. When the game turns into nothing but Gauss and dakka with a 0% light queue, I don't want people who supported this crud complaining about the "stale meta" - you were warned.

[Livewyr]

oldradagast, on 15 October 2015 - 06:56 PM, said:

Lasers are the "main weapon" because most other weapons are:
- Too heavy for the mech (most ballistics)
- Have horrible hit-registration (SRM's, PPC)
- Have far too many counters (LRM's)

At one time, PPCs and ballistics were the meta.

oldradagast, on 15 October 2015 - 06:56 PM, said:

Gutting lasers isn't going to fix the meta. It is just going to remove all energy-heavy mechs or light mechs from the game because they NEED effective lasers to be able to compete. When the game turns into nothing but Gauss and dakka with a 0% light queue, I don't want people who supported this crud complaining about the "stale meta" - you were warned.

How did lasers become the meta in the first place? It used to be PPCs/ballistics...then those got ditched for lasers. Why?

[Jack Shayu Walker]

Livewyr, on 15 October 2015 - 07:04 PM, said:

At one time, PPCs and ballistics were the meta.



How did lasers become the meta in the first place? It used to be PPCs/ballistics...then those got ditched for lasers. Why?

Because pinpoint front-loaded damage was OP. The pinpoint damage issue isn't going to go away by nerfing lasers. Maybe TTK will go down to a bit more reasonable levels, MAYBE. but a patch like this on the live server will destroy smalls, and then I'll take my wallet and leave.

[Livewyr]

Jack Shayu Walker, on 15 October 2015 - 07:10 PM, said:

Because pinpoint front-loaded damage was OP. The pinpoint damage issue isn't going to go away by nerfing lasers.

That doesn't explain why the meta shifted to laser vomit. What changed the meta from PPCs/Ballistics to lasers?

Jack Shayu Walker, on 15 October 2015 - 07:10 PM, said:

Maybe TTK will go down to a bit more reasonable levels, MAYBE. but a patch like this on the live server will destroy smalls, and then I'll take my wallet and leave.

I don't see small lasers being crushed.. At the ranges you would be using them, locking the mech will be instant. (ECM mechs could be a bit more fun... welcome to feast or famine? )

[sycocys]

Please guys, try to remember that this is only the first iteration of this idea. Even Paul readily admits they are going to be going through things and spending a fair bit of time to get it as right as they can before putting it on live this time.

The fact that they are actually communicating, which has been a HUGE issue for them up to this point, should give you at least a tiny nudge of hope they might follow through on that plan.

[Jack Shayu Walker]

Livewyr, on 15 October 2015 - 07:20 PM, said:

That doesn't explain why the meta shifted to laser vomit. What changed the meta from PPCs/Ballistics to lasers?



I don't see small lasers being crushed.. At the ranges you would be using them, locking the mech will be instant. (ECM mechs could be a bit more fun... welcome to feast or famine? )

What do you mean "locking the mech would be instant"? Target locking is already instant if you press R, and the new target acquisition time quirks aren't affected by range; only the info gathering quirks are divided by range. That doesn't change the fact that the mechanics are wonky when dealing with enemy mechs in a choke point.

Er smalls are fine where they are at on the live server, but they aren't fine when you bring them down to their PTS unlocked damage. I play with smalls every day, I can feel the difference quite clearly.

(I can't argue this anymore, I need sleep ttyl)

Edited by Jack Shayu Walker, 15 October 2015 - 07:33 PM.

[Livewyr]

sycocys, on 15 October 2015 - 07:27 PM, said:

Please guys, try to remember that this is only the first iteration of this idea. Even Paul readily admits they are going to be going through things and spending a fair bit of time to get it as right as they can before putting it on live this time.

The fact that they are actually communicating, which has been a HUGE issue for them up to this point, should give you at least a tiny nudge of hope they might follow through on that plan.

Indeed. This actually sparked a bit of hope. (A shock to the system so far.)

Jack Shayu Walker, on 15 October 2015 - 07:27 PM, said:

What do you mean "locking the mech would be instant"? Target locking is already instant if you press R, and the new target acquisition time quirks aren't affected by range; only the info gathering quirks are divided by range. That doesn't change the fact that the mechanics are wonky when dealing with enemy mechs in a choke point.

Getting the Doritos in the first place is going to be a timed issue, I suspect it will be distance based, based on previous ideas they've floated- and then quirked by variant.

Jack Shayu Walker, on 15 October 2015 - 07:27 PM, said:

Er smalls are fine where they are at on the live server, but they aren't fine when you bring them down to their PTS unlocked damage. I play with smalls every day, I can feel the difference quite clearly.

It could be, I won't say definitely that it's okay- but I do think a lot of the reactions to the laser changes are sticker shock. (Similar to the ECM people decrying that there is absolutely no reason to bring ECM anymore...)

[Jack Shayu Walker]

Livewyr, on 15 October 2015 - 07:35 PM, said:

Getting the Doritos in the first place is going to be a timed issue, I suspect it will be distance based, based on previous ideas they've floated- and then quirked by variant.

It isn't distance based, I was there for phase 1. Only info gathering was distance based, dorito delay was static.

Livewyr, on 15 October 2015 - 07:35 PM, said:

It could be, I won't say definitely that it's okay- but I do think a lot of the reactions to the laser changes are sticker shock. (Similar to the ECM people decrying that there is absolutely no reason to bring ECM anymore...)

I think it could be true that the blowback to the overall laser nerfs is knee-jerk, what I am certain of is that clan smalls were hit way too hard.

PS: please yank my ethernet, I have early morning classes @.@

Edited by Jack Shayu Walker, 15 October 2015 - 07:44 PM.

[Livewyr]

Jack Shayu Walker, on 15 October 2015 - 07:41 PM, said:

It isn't distance based, I was there for phase 1. Only info gathering was distance based, doritos were static.

I know, but there was also discussion at one point of making the dorito acquisition distance based- to allow some stealth/info tech and wiggle room for balancing there.

Jack Shayu Walker, on 15 October 2015 - 07:41 PM, said:

I think it could be true that the blowback to the overall laser nerfs is knee-jerk, what I am certain of is that clan smalls were hit way too hard.

PS: please yank my ethernet, I have early morning classes @.@

Go to bed. I am not responding to any more of your posts until tomorrow!

[Jack Shayu Walker]

Livewyr, on 15 October 2015 - 07:44 PM, said:

I know, but there was also discussion at one point of making the dorito acquisition distance based- to allow some stealth/info tech and wiggle room for balancing there.




Go to bed. I am not responding to any more of your posts until tomorrow!

k thanks much.

[Mystere]

Livewyr, on 15 October 2015 - 05:41 PM, said:

Maximum of 34 damage if everything hit the crow. Not exactly legging damage.

In the solo queue, being able to fire two alphas before the victim is in a position to retaliate is not exactly a rare occurrence.