120 replies to this topic

[MischiefSC]

FupDup, on 15 October 2015 - 09:49 PM, said:

As long as the individual weapons themselves aren't omnipotent, then they can just be countered by a mech designed accordingly.

E.g. a laser boat should probably be countered by a PPFLD peeker of some kind that can take a shot and hide before the laser boat can get a full beam fired, or a PPC boat getting countered by people that get in close range where it can't sustain its heat and has min range, etc.

Boating magnifies the strengths of the weaponry being boated, but it also magnifies their weaknesses.

I like the concept but, again, that would mean you've got all weapons niched. I'm all for that. Totally for that. It's just going to involve even more nerfs to lasers than they have already.

[FupDup]

MischiefSC, on 15 October 2015 - 09:54 PM, said:

I like the concept but, again, that would mean you've got all weapons niched. I'm all for that. Totally for that. It's just going to involve even more nerfs to lasers than they have already.

Poptarts once stood against the laser vomit tide, just as a historical reminder. Frontloaded weapons make perfect sense as the counter to damage over time ones, like water against fire. Start by bumping up PPCs a bit, and then the natural predator of laser boats can return to restore the ecosystem...

[adamts01]

Ghost duration would be good also. I personally think that half of the mechs in this game are where they should be, 25% underpowered and 25% OP. Convergence, lock on for full range, stuff like that nerfs everyone equally again. Maybe it would be better for gameplay but the best mechs now would still be the best mechs then. Lower heat cap, Ghost heat and Cone effect for group actually balances the chassis.

FupDup, on 15 October 2015 - 09:59 PM, said:

Poptarts once stood against the laser vomit tide, just as a historical reminder. Frontloaded weapons make perfect sense as the counter to damage over time ones, like water against fire. Start by bumping up PPCs a bit, and then the natural predator of laser boats can return to restore the ecosystem...

Another problem with the game is that things keep getting bumped up. The best should be brought down.

[Leone]

Aww come on. I'm already being held an an arbitrary sixteen count weapons limit on my Nova-S, now you tell me I cannot fire fourteen lasers all at once? It's the Blackhawk! Harbinger of Doom. Why wont you let me put those Inner Sphere pilots in their place with a proper group firing. I just want to ruin your day with the push of a button. Now it takes, two... Nay, three!

~Leone.

[Golden Vulf]

FupDup, on 15 October 2015 - 08:40 PM, said:

The fastest way I can sum it up is that it punishes the wrong builds, for the wrong reasons, using the wrong methods.


Wrong builds: Remember how the AC/2 used to have Paranormal Heat? Even today most of the weapons on the list have never needed it...I can understand PPCs, AC/20, and Clan lasers, but no missiles or other ballistics should have it.

Wrong reasons: So what if they fire their guns at the same time? Why wouldn't they? Chainfiring everything makes them more vulnerable to getting shot back, not to mention it's more likely to spread damage on their targets.

Wrong methods: PGI likes to rely on heat as their predominant "balancing" mechanism, as seen by some previous statements such as Paul's stance in Ask The Devs #43 (he thinks heat efficient mechs would be highly exploited).

Like how a certain Thunderbolt model had a 50% reduction in PPC heat, and so an inordinate number of CW Inner Sphere drop decks had 3 of the same variants, all equipped the same way?

[Atlasian]

I'm ok with ghost heat despite it hinders my boats.

[FupDup]

adamts01, on 15 October 2015 - 10:03 PM, said:

Another problem with the game is that things keep getting bumped up. The best should be brought down.

Were you here during the Age of Nerfinator? There were extremely sad happenings, including the nerfings of the AC/2 at least three separate times.

The number of guns that can qualify as OP in this game can be basically counted on one hand, or maybe some of a second hand. PPCs sure as heck aren't on that list.

Playing the whack-a-mole game of nerfing whatever people don't like at the time always ends up in people moving on to the next build that is the least bad, and this becomes the next new meta. Then after several months people start to hate the new meta that they hatched, and so the cycle repeats itself.

[Khobai]

Quote

Wrong methods: PGI likes to rely on heat as their predominant "balancing" mechanism, as seen by some previous statements such as Paul's stance in Ask The Devs #43 (he thinks heat efficient mechs would be highly exploited).

heat would probably work better as a balancing mechanism if gauss didnt exist. gauss is a large part of the problem since it makes the perfect complement to any number of weapons with high heat.

Edited by Khobai, 15 October 2015 - 10:15 PM.

[adamts01]

FupDup, on 15 October 2015 - 10:10 PM, said:

Were you here during the Age of Nerfinator? There were extremely sad happenings, including the nerfings of the AC/2 at least three separate times.

The number of guns that can qualify as OP in this game can be basically counted on one hand, or maybe some of a second hand. PPCs sure as heck aren't on that list.

Playing the whack-a-mole game of nerfing whatever people don't like at the time always ends up in people moving on to the next build that is the least bad, and this becomes the next new meta. Then after several months people start to hate the new meta that they hatched, and so the cycle repeats itself.

There were always more powerful weapons than others, there always will be. I for one hate that my heavy has a 61 pin point 440 meter alpha. And that lights have 30+ alphas. If things get bumped up and up and up instead of bringing the best down then we'll be one shotting any medium from the front before long. So yeah, I say nerf, not buff.

Khobai, on 15 October 2015 - 10:15 PM, said:

heat would probably work better as a balancing mechanism if gauss didnt exist. gauss is a large part of the problem since it makes the perfect complement to any number of weapons with high heat.

Gauss is really only a problem if there's two of them. They made it so you can only fire two at a time, I think they should limit that to 1. especially if they impose new heat penalties or a lower heat cap. Any nerfs to guass it'self will only hurt the mediums that are trying to eek by in a gauss build.

Edited by adamts01, 15 October 2015 - 10:21 PM.

[FupDup]

adamts01, on 15 October 2015 - 10:18 PM, said:

There were always more powerful weapons than others, there always will be. I for one hate that my heavy has a 61 pin point 440 meter alpha. And that lights have 30+ alphas. If things get bumped up and up and up instead of bringing the best down then we'll be one shotting any medium from the front before long. So yeah, I say nerf, not buff.

Just be careful about what you ask for...

[MischiefSC]

FupDup, on 15 October 2015 - 09:59 PM, said:

Poptarts once stood against the laser vomit tide, just as a historical reminder. Frontloaded weapons make perfect sense as the counter to damage over time ones, like water against fire. Start by bumping up PPCs a bit, and then the natural predator of laser boats can return to restore the ecosystem...

Yep. That's why I want the PTS live a while. I want to give the old poptart kings time to brush their hop n pop off and see how it holds against lasers now.

I'd rather brush PPC heat down a bit. I'd rather raise their sustained DPS than increase their accuracy. Accuracy = range and consistency. That's way more powerful than sustained DPS.

For now though I say leave all that alone. Just focus on what's on the plate. Taken on their own, relative to live servers, how are lasers performing without quirks and the new changes. It need more? Less? Where? Why? Then we can brush outliers in lasers in and out (LPL nerfs, small/SPL buffs). THEN we leave that completely alone and look at ballistics (PPCs/ACs). You need to balance AC10s and PPCs at the same time. What if.... what if AC10s got a cooldown reduction and no ballistic drop? What if AC10 and 20 got a cooldown reduction? WIth hardpoint inflation and liquid metal mechbay AC20s at 14 tons have to compete with 4 MLs and 10 extra DHS.

Again, I'd rather fiddle first with cooldowns than heat and velocity. Accuracy > DPS and as such it's easier to fine-tune with DPS. Ballistics are actually pretty close to good; big movements of the dial are precarious. Try to do it with cooldown and if that won't work then accuracy (velocity).

[FupDup]

MischiefSC, on 15 October 2015 - 10:28 PM, said:

Yep. That's why I want the PTS live a while. I want to give the old poptart kings time to brush their hop n pop off and see how it holds against lasers now.

I'd rather brush PPC heat down a bit. I'd rather raise their sustained DPS than increase their accuracy. Accuracy = range and consistency. That's way more powerful than sustained DPS.

For now though I say leave all that alone. Just focus on what's on the plate. Taken on their own, relative to live servers, how are lasers performing without quirks and the new changes. It need more? Less? Where? Why? Then we can brush outliers in lasers in and out (LPL nerfs, small/SPL buffs). THEN we leave that completely alone and look at ballistics (PPCs/ACs). You need to balance AC10s and PPCs at the same time. What if.... what if AC10s got a cooldown reduction and no ballistic drop? What if AC10 and 20 got a cooldown reduction? WIth hardpoint inflation and liquid metal mechbay AC20s at 14 tons have to compete with 4 MLs and 10 extra DHS.

Again, I'd rather fiddle first with cooldowns than heat and velocity. Accuracy > DPS and as such it's easier to fine-tune with DPS. Ballistics are actually pretty close to good; big movements of the dial are precarious. Try to do it with cooldown and if that won't work then accuracy (velocity).

And I don't like reducing PPC heat because then their role overlaps with lasers, and one of them will inevitably be better at that one role than the other. Keeping them different makes it easier for both to be relevant...not to mention it's more "flavorful" for them to not be the same.

[adamts01]

I have a problem with my Timber, Crow, Cheetah and Firestarter. When this PTS happens they'll all still have the same pinpoint alpha, just at a shorter range. And the Arctic Cheater, Oh my god, my ER Med build will own when I can target you but you can't target me. They needed to address the high alphas and they didn't. Now the crap mechs are even crappier. This is a huge step in the wrong direction.

[MischiefSC]

FupDup, on 15 October 2015 - 10:31 PM, said:

And I don't like reducing PPC heat because then their role overlaps with lasers, and one of them will inevitably be better at that one role than the other. Keeping them different makes it easier for both to be relevant...not to mention it's more "flavorful" for them to not be the same.

I can agree with that. The issue is that PPCs use an E hardpoint and so stack with ballistics - which means they inherently always compete with ballistics. Since E is more ubiquitous than B, if PPCs are at all better they easily replace E. Or, due to ballistic low heat, provide a force multiplier for it.

I'd rather tweak cooldowns. Make PPCs fire a bit faster, this helps tie them into being a snap-fire alternative to lasers. That both stacks (sorta) with ballistics (which you want to a degree) and keeps them out of lasers wheelhouse. It also provides E heavy mechs with a snap fire alternative.

Good accuracy and no ammo is not something you can compete with though with ballistics. I'd like to keep ACs more accurate (faster) in the end. They need something in return for tonnage, inability to boat with much else (lots of space), ammo dependency et al. That particular balancing act is a fine one and I'm not sure where to slice it.

[FupDup]

MischiefSC, on 15 October 2015 - 10:39 PM, said:

I can agree with that. The issue is that PPCs use an E hardpoint and so stack with ballistics - which means they inherently always compete with ballistics. Since E is more ubiquitous than B, if PPCs are at all better they easily replace E. Or, due to ballistic low heat, provide a force multiplier for it.

I'd rather tweak cooldowns. Make PPCs fire a bit faster, this helps tie them into being a snap-fire alternative to lasers. That both stacks (sorta) with ballistics (which you want to a degree) and keeps them out of lasers wheelhouse. It also provides E heavy mechs with a snap fire alternative.

Good accuracy and no ammo is not something you can compete with though with ballistics. I'd like to keep ACs more accurate (faster) in the end. They need something in return for tonnage, inability to boat with much else (lots of space), ammo dependency et al. That particular balancing act is a fine one and I'm not sure where to slice it.

PPC cooldowns would be meaningless for most builds. It also doesn't even make sense for what is supposed to be a hard-hitting long range cannon. The weapon family's issue is reliability at their listed optimal ranges. Reducing heat just makes them go head-to-head with lasers for the midrange continuous vomit spewing role.

ACs should in theory be getting low heat and much higher firing rate for their weight...right now they do on paper, but the amounts they have are often higher than the weight they spent (e.g. I would currently rather have 1 Large Laser than 1 AC/5, even if the weight difference was ignored). I want the dakka to come bakka...


PS: So what if PPCs have synergy with ballistics? That would mean people would mix them together instead of boating them separately, and I thought that a lot of people have a personal hatred of boating right? Synergy is how you make boating less common.

[MischiefSC]

FupDup, on 15 October 2015 - 10:50 PM, said:

PPC cooldowns would be meaningless for most builds. It also doesn't even make sense for what is supposed to be a hard-hitting long range cannon. The weapon family's issue is reliability at their listed optimal ranges. Reducing heat just makes them go head-to-head with lasers for the midrange continuous vomit spewing role.

ACs should in theory be getting low heat and much higher firing rate for their weight...right now they do on paper, but the amounts they have are often higher than the weight they spent (e.g. I would currently rather have 1 Large Laser than 1 AC/5, even if the weight difference was ignored). I want the dakka to come bakka...


PS: So what if PPCs have synergy with ballistics? That would mean people would mix them together instead of boating them separately, and I thought that a lot of people have a personal hatred of boating right? Synergy is how you make boating less common.

I get what you are saying. PPCs touched me in a bad place though and forgiveness is a hard thing.

Cooldown, not heat. Just let them cycle faster. We have better heat dis already with the new DHS changes.

[Random Carnage]

Ghost anything is just a bad mechanic. There are better options without needing to invent crap that is illogical outside of a pure balance argument.

[adamts01]

Random Carnage, on 15 October 2015 - 11:23 PM, said:

Ghost anything is just a bad mechanic. There are better options without needing to invent crap that is illogical outside of a pure balance argument.

I hold balance and game play above realism. Lower heat cap is good, cone fire is great. "One shot" strength alpha then hide sucks. Ghost heat really mitigates that, and if you have a balanced loadout then you never notice it. I agree that it goes way overboard with the AC2 and LRM5s, but I think it's a great idea. And not entirely unrealistic. Maybe a power source distributing that much energy at the exact same moment really gets the delivery system working? It's plausible.

[Widowmaker1981]

Ghost heat doesnt need to be in all the places it is .. but you dont want snap-shotable 60 point PPFLD alphas. A BLR can mount 6x Cockpit level PPCs and run enough DHS that it wont shutdown from a 60 heat alpha. Peek. Oneshot something. Hide.

Ghost heat IS a bit of a banda1d but its very, very, very hard to make individual/paired weapons viable without making the same weapon boated in large numbers incredibly OP, and ghost heat is a way to do that.

No, Low ass 30 point heat cap isnt a good idea. It completely ruins energy weapons which HAVE to be able to alpha and twist/hide if they are to be able to compete with boated low heat fast firing ACs. Whos going to win a war between a quad UAC5 mech and a laser mech if the laser mech has to chainfire?.. lol.

[MischiefSC]

Random Carnage, on 15 October 2015 - 11:23 PM, said:

Ghost anything is just a bad mechanic. There are better options without needing to invent crap that is illogical outside of a pure balance argument.

So get one of those changes in and I'll champion the **** out of it. Heat scale, hardpoint sizes, capacitor limits, I don't care. I'd love to get rid of ghost heat mechanic but it does what it needs to do. Clumsy and it hates us for our freedom, but it gets the job done albeit with a lot of collateral damage. As I've said before, broken mechanics fixed by broken mechanics.

IW though doesn't feel like that. I get that it feels obtuse at first but go play it. A bunch. Like 20 drops or so. In terms of how it affects lasers it's got a certain.... elegance. If you're in lasers you *hunt* people. That's your target. You pick your approach more carefully and you're more aware of your precision. Distance starts to really matter. You have motivation to close even when it's a bit more dangerous. The risk/reward metric is swung a bit more towards rewarding risks instead of rewarding peeking and hill-humping. Suddenly being aware of where your teammates are matters a *lot* because that lance that's otherwise out of position may conversely be locking targets for you and as such not just some tards to complain about in chat.

It changes a *lot* of valuation metrics and while it feels wonky at first you adapt pretty quick and it becomes a layer of complexity you *exploit*, not that you fight against. That enemy dorito on the minimap is facing your teammate? He's a BK? He's not targeting you. Poke out and take a little time. He probably won't switch targets to shoot you, he's focused on your LRM Atlas buddy way out of position in D4. You don't know if you're targeted or not but in general TTK feels longer. Some hits just... hurt less. That hit that should have peeled you way back just dented you up a bit. Getting a clean hit is suddenly more useful than just spraying some sort of damage on them.

Just play it. Chew on it. Try ballistics, I'm trying to see where this puts the laser/ballistic balance. Still feels like it's on the laser side but again, I'm not the one to call that. Test it for what it is and see where it needs to go from here.