120 replies to this topic

[adamts01]

Widowmaker1981, on 16 October 2015 - 12:59 AM, said:

Ghost heat doesnt need to be in all the places it is .. but you dont want snap-shotable 60 point PPFLD alphas. A BLR can mount 6x Cockpit level PPCs and run enough DHS that it wont shutdown from a 60 heat alpha. Peek. Oneshot something. Hide.

Ghost heat IS a bit of a banda1d but its very, very, very hard to make individual/paired weapons viable without making the same weapon boated in large numbers incredibly OP, and ghost heat is a way to do that.

No, Low ass 30 point heat cap isnt a good idea. It completely ruins energy weapons which HAVE to be able to alpha and twist/hide if they are to be able to compete with boated low heat fast firing ACs. Whos going to win a war between a quad UAC5 mech and a laser mech if the laser mech has to chainfire?.. lol.

The only things that can quad fire ac5s are Crabs and Dires. Nothing SHOULD be able to out gun them, that's another problem with the game. If you don't have equal assault firepower/armor to bring to the table then you need to out maneuver them, not out shoot them.

[adamts01]

I just think the problem was with boats and this particular bandaid hurts all mechs with lasers. Many of them are lights and mediums that don't have much of an option of what to run and would never be considered good even with full power lasers. My more fun to play mechs who's only option besides lasers were machine guns or possibly SRMs will now be even more outclassed than they already were.

[ShinVector]

adamts01, on 16 October 2015 - 01:05 AM, said:

The only things that can quad fire ac5s are Crabs and Dires. Nothing SHOULD be able to out gun them, that's another problem with the game. If you don't have equal assault firepower/armor to bring to the table then you need to out maneuver them, not out shoot them.

HEXXA AC5 Mauler laughs at your quad ac5 Crabs and Dires !
There... Something outguns them !

Edited by ShinVector, 16 October 2015 - 01:15 AM.

[Widowmaker1981]

adamts01, on 16 October 2015 - 01:05 AM, said:

The only things that can quad fire ac5s are Crabs and Dires. Nothing SHOULD be able to out gun them, that's another problem with the game. If you don't have equal assault firepower/armor to bring to the table then you need to out maneuver them, not out shoot them.

Mauler does quad UAC5 far, far better than the King Crab, by the way. Jager-DD does 3 of them arguably as powerfully as the Mauler does 4 (due to jam chance quirk + high weapons) but is fragile, granted.

Nothing DOES outshoot a Dire, either. Things ridge hump them to death because slow + low weapons, but nothing out firepowers them.

Edited by Widowmaker1981, 16 October 2015 - 01:19 AM.

[Widowmaker1981]

ShinVector, on 16 October 2015 - 01:14 AM, said:

HEXXA AC5 Mauler laughs at your quad ac5 Crabs and Dires !
There... Something outguns them !

lol turret mauler. Quad UAC5 > Hex AC5

[ShinVector]

Widowmaker1981, on 16 October 2015 - 01:20 AM, said:

lol turret mauler. Quad UAC5 > Hex AC5

Think not due to reliability but need to try that one though.

Using it as 6xAC5 as a sniper is LOL..

Edited by ShinVector, 16 October 2015 - 01:25 AM.

[adamts01]

ShinVector, on 16 October 2015 - 01:14 AM, said:

HEXXA AC5 Mauler laughs at your quad ac5 Crabs and Dires !
There... Something outguns them !

I don't drive assaults, plus I just came back to the game after 9 months, so I honestly don't know. But still, it's another assault is what I was getting at. A heavy should never have a chance if he goes head to head with an assault.

[Widowmaker1981]

ShinVector, on 16 October 2015 - 01:23 AM, said:

Think not due to reliability but need to try that one though.

Using it as 6xAC5 as a sniper is LOL..

This MAL-MX90 is the best 6xAC5 build i could make, and its wildly too slow (if you are not faster than a dire, you should BE a dire), and only barely has enough ammo to break 1k, if you hit with every single shell. Its just too limited. 5xAC5 is more reasonable, but ive tried it compared to quad UACs and its just weak dmg output with less ammo (not to mention you can run 4xUAC5 on the 1R which has 12.5% ballistic cooldown and +30% cbills)

Edited by Widowmaker1981, 16 October 2015 - 01:51 AM.

[NextGame]

adamts01, on 15 October 2015 - 08:33 PM, said:

Laser spamming is a problem. Every mech that is complained about is a laser spammer. Cheetah, Firestarter, timber, crow... Ghost heat is a simple thing to lessen those alphas. I say more ghost heat. The other mechanic that sounds great is a cone fire that increases with number of lasers fired within 1/2 second. The reason both these mechanics are ideal is that they don't punish the crappy mechs that only have 2 or 3 lasers the way these targeting solutions do and they would be easy to introduce. With the new range mechanic, how do you counter snipe a 3L? You can't lock him. He'll always out range you by 40%. They'll be everywhere. And that's not good. And I'm not hating on laser spammers, they're just broken. With the sad state of the Oceanic server and the lopsided matches I resulted to waiting linger for a match and only using my Timber so it would be easier to carry a bad team. So yeah, ghost heat, bring it on. With that happening and the ECM nerf missiles will be a great alternative to stacking lasers. And mixed builds are good for game play.

This is possibly the most short sighted post I have ever read on this forum. Is there some sort of award I can hand out?

[TexAce]

My Dual-UAC5+ML Enforcer is completely heat neutral with the 10 engine dubs. Just saying. I can't overheat with it even if I try. Same geos for the rather unserious but extremly fun tripleLBX ilya.

A quad AC5 Mauler is heat neutral too.

Edited by TexAce, 16 October 2015 - 03:00 AM.

[adamts01]

NextGame, on 16 October 2015 - 02:48 AM, said:

This is possibly the most short sighted post I have ever read on this forum. Is there some sort of award I can hand out?

How about you're specific problem with it instead of an insult? God i wish kids like you would try to talk to me like this face to face.

[Duke Nedo]

Random Carnage, on 15 October 2015 - 11:23 PM, said:

Ghost anything is just a bad mechanic. There are better options without needing to invent crap that is illogical outside of a pure balance argument.

There really isn't any simple better solution tbh. Imo the current ghost heat should be renamed and repaired. Call in something like "effect output" and allow different chassi to be able to handle different amount of effect output (i.e. simultaneous heat). That will patch up the gigantic holes in current ghost heat, while filling the same purpose and also being intuitive and a new balance metric.

See here for more details: http://mwomercs.com/...ily-ever-after/

I realize that "fixing ghost heat" is perceived as "keeping ghost heat" which is a bad thing for many... but imo some kind of stacking penalty is needed in any game that allows full customization. It's common and it works. The trick is in the implementation. Having to consult a table on a 3rd party website is not a good implementation!

Widowmaker1981, on 16 October 2015 - 12:59 AM, said:

Ghost heat doesnt need to be in all the places it is .. but you dont want snap-shotable 60 point PPFLD alphas. A BLR can mount 6x Cockpit level PPCs and run enough DHS that it wont shutdown from a 60 heat alpha. Peek. Oneshot something. Hide.

Ghost heat IS a bit of a banda1d but its very, very, very hard to make individual/paired weapons viable without making the same weapon boated in large numbers incredibly OP, and ghost heat is a way to do that.

No, Low ass 30 point heat cap isnt a good idea. It completely ruins energy weapons which HAVE to be able to alpha and twist/hide if they are to be able to compete with boated low heat fast firing ACs. Whos going to win a war between a quad UAC5 mech and a laser mech if the laser mech has to chainfire?.. lol.

This is the thing! To add on to that, heat alone is not enough because different weapons have different alpha/heat ratios. A flat heat scale of say 30 will treat 10x cSPL = 60 damage for 30 heat in the same way as 2x ERPPC = 20 damage for 30 heat.

[Lugh]

MischiefSC, on 15 October 2015 - 09:28 PM, said:

It's not the quirks - it's boated lasers. Stalkers are just an example. Same with PPCs. IT's not a boogyman - it sorta sucked and it just promotes more identical boating. Synergy, etc.

A heat scale fix would be awesome. Magical even. I'd take that and wrap it up with love and adoration. I'm not game for just tossing ghost heat without some other option for managing boated big weapons in place.

Stalker boats have never ever scared me. They give a momentary pause only in other assaults. Any other mech can out maneuver them without too much effort. And if we had a PROPER heatscale with REAL penalties most people that I've seen pilot them and many others too, would be cooking their pilots alive.

Incidentally, why don't we have a pilot life problem? There is nothing that dissuades you more from taking absurd risks than the thought that you might lose X 100's of hours of skill acquires due to pilot death.

[Mawai]

FupDup, on 15 October 2015 - 09:49 PM, said:

As long as the individual weapons themselves aren't omnipotent, then they can just be countered by a mech designed accordingly.

E.g. a laser boat should probably be countered by a PPFLD peeker of some kind that can take a shot and hide before the laser boat can get a full beam fired, or a PPC boat getting countered by people that get in close range where it can't sustain its heat and has min range, etc.

Boating magnifies the strengths of the weaponry being boated, but it also magnifies their weaknesses.

... and that idea doesn't work unless you know what mechs you will be facing ... which you don't, Maybe you can build a perfect counter mech to one with boated weapons (though I am not saying that is true in all cases) ... but that mech will have its own weaknesses.

Ghost heat may not be an ideal mechanic, I'll be the first to agree. However, it does limit boated energy weapon builds in a significant way. It effectively eliminated the 4 and 6 PPC builds along with the 4 and 6 LL builds ... both of which could be very effective. It also placed limits even on the 2 x AC20 builds since they can't fire both simultaneously for more than a few shots without overheating.

Clan builds came after ghost heat and have never really been really balanced anyway ... however, the ability to mount 3 or more gauss rifles was the reason why they added the limitation of only charging 2 gauss rifles simultaneously.

Relying on boated weapons to have a weakness you can exploit in order to balance them is not effective since the number of times a boated build will run into the perfect counter build under circumstances where it would be effective are so small as to be meaningless. In addition, some of the boated builds don't really have much of a weakness, especially if they remember they are on a team and stay with their wingmen who can and should cover for any weaknesses in the really effective boated build.

[adamts01]

Lugh, on 16 October 2015 - 05:52 AM, said:

Stalker boats have never ever scared me. They give a momentary pause only in other assaults. Any other mech can out maneuver them without too much effort. And if we had a PROPER heatscale with REAL penalties most people that I've seen pilot them and many others too, would be cooking their pilots alive.

Incidentally, why don't we have a pilot life problem? There is nothing that dissuades you more from taking absurd risks than the thought that you might lose X 100's of hours of skill acquires due to pilot death.

Have you ever played Boreal Vault? Even after ghost heat. Stalkers for days, for a good reason. What they do, they do well. And as far as my pilot dying... Really? With all the clueless scrubs you get matched with on your teams...

[ShinVector]

Widowmaker1981, on 16 October 2015 - 01:50 AM, said:

This MAL-MX90 is the best 6xAC5 build i could make, and its wildly too slow (if you are not faster than a dire, you should BE a dire), and only barely has enough ammo to break 1k, if you hit with every single shell. Its just too limited. 5xAC5 is more reasonable, but ive tried it compared to quad UACs and its just weak dmg output with less ammo (not to mention you can run 4xUAC5 on the 1R which has 12.5% ballistic cooldown and +30% cbills)

Dude... 6xAC5 is kinda of a troll build.. The most it is a Lance Killer.

But the funny thing is... 1v1 it can virtually out DPS every other mech in the game, including Dires.. Haha..

[pbiggz]

Because when something is unbalanced you balance it, you dont create a contrived arbitrary system in an attempt to get a computer to balance it for you. It's never worked before and it wont work now, and as long as paul thinks he can sit in an office doing **** all the game wont get better. Balance is a pursuit, you rarely get it perfect ever, but he just doesn't want to do anything at all, so he applies his ghost heat and washes his hands of it.

Also it never fixed anything. People bitched about hex ppc stalkers but anyone with their head not stuck up their ******** knew that quad ppc stalkers were far more dangerous than hex ppc, and regardless, it was the rise of the gauss rifle ppc meta that really pissed people off and ghost heat did exactly nothing to mitigate that meta, and I would say that the year and a half to 2 years of double ppc/ac20/10/gauss meta did far more lasting damage to the game then the hex ppc stalker joke meta ever did.

Edited by pbiggz, 16 October 2015 - 01:34 PM.

[Coolant]

I don't hate ghost heat at all, in fact I kinda like it. But, the problem is that it is a hidden system to new players. There is no where in the game where there is an obvious reference to it. When new Steam players shut down often due to ghost heat and die repetitively while being a sitting duck, they will leave as quickly as they come. I'd be fine leaving in ghost heat, just make it conspicuous. Even add it to the Academy.

[Revis Volek]

Because Ghosts are spooky?

[Revis Volek]

ShinVector, on 16 October 2015 - 01:23 AM, said:

Think not due to reliability but need to try that one though.

Using it as 6xAC5 as a sniper is LOL..

Sweet build, nice match, but why would you label the video as "Zoom Cheat"?

Are you in fact cheating?