120 replies to this topic

[adamts01]

CptGier, on 17 October 2015 - 08:44 AM, said:

BEcause Ghost heat is just ********...

My 8 heat laser suddenly becomes a 48 heat laser because I fired 3 of them together, or I chain fired them 0.00045s to fast...

It makes weapons like AC2s bad because they need to boated to be good and use sustained fire to put out damage. GH on them just makes them kinda suck. Its terrible on weapons like PPCs because they might be PPD, but compared to lasers, they are hotter, slower, harder to hit with, generate a **** load of heat and are worse overall then lasers.

GH chain fire the CLPL, you can get like 26 dmg 7 times before over heating. PPC, you can get 10 dmg 7 times before over heating. 4 CLPL, you can actually alpha strike 1 time and not blow up..4 CERPPC, you make the mistake of chain firing 2 to quickly, you blow up...

GH is just stupid ....

Ghost heat nerfed your OP builds. Good. That's what it's supposed to do. Other laser spammers are still very OP. I know, I play them all. I try not to but there's some nights when you want to win. I absolutely agree that AC2s got the short end of the stick, they and a few other weapons need adjustment. The system is effective and what I like is that it doesn't nerf the weapon, just the OP mechs that boat them. This currently proposed nerf hurts the crappy chasis more than the good ones.

[CptGier]

adamts01, on 17 October 2015 - 09:36 AM, said:

Ghost heat nerfed your OP builds. Good. That's what it's supposed to do. Other laser spammers are still very OP. I know, I play them all. I try not to but there's some nights when you want to win. I absolutely agree that AC2s got the short end of the stick, they and a few other weapons need adjustment. The system is effective and what I like is that it doesn't nerf the weapon, just the OP mechs that boat them. This currently proposed nerf hurts the crappy chasis more than the good ones.

IM not QQin about it nerfing my builds, I dont even follow meta builds, outside the WHK 4 CLPL.

GH makes PPCs just that much worse though...low dmg for the heat generated, terrible velocity, so shooting at distance is a joke, higher reload rates to boot. Then you go to chain fire it and if yo chain fire to fast, you get 8x as mcuh heat...

[adamts01]

CptGier, on 17 October 2015 - 11:34 AM, said:

IM not QQin about it nerfing my builds, I dont even follow meta builds, outside the WHK 4 CLPL.

GH makes PPCs just that much worse though...low dmg for the heat generated, terrible velocity, so shooting at distance is a joke, higher reload rates to boot. Then you go to chain fire it and if yo chain fire to fast, you get 8x as mcuh heat...

Yeah PPCs suck. Same with AC2s. No one's saying they don't need a little love. I'm just saying Imagine a timberwolf that could alpha 6 large lasers at once. Not pretty. You can't nerf the Large Laser because then the weak little kit fox that can barely do decent with 2 is punished. The problem is with the platform. PPCs weren't a problem until people started mounting 6 of them and 1 shotting heavies. That's not how this game is supposed to be played. So you either nerf the weapon (bad idea) or make it so a decent weapon can't be exploited (ghost heat).

[pbiggz]

adamts01, on 17 October 2015 - 11:55 AM, said:

Yeah PPCs suck. Same with AC2s. No one's saying they don't need a little love. I'm just saying Imagine a timberwolf that could alpha 6 large lasers at once. Not pretty. You can't nerf the Large Laser because then the weak little kit fox that can barely do decent with 2 is punished. The problem is with the platform. PPCs weren't a problem until people started mounting 6 of them and 1 shotting heavies. That's not how this game is supposed to be played. So you either nerf the weapon (bad idea) or make it so a decent weapon can't be exploited (ghost heat).

You balance weapons BEFORE you use other systems to manage them, and if you do have to use other systems, my god ghost heat has to be the worst. Almost every fps game has convergence mechanics so why the hell couldn't paul use one of those? Oh yes, because he has to make his own to show that he "works hard".

[MischiefSC]

pbiggz, on 17 October 2015 - 01:09 PM, said:

You balance weapons BEFORE you use other systems to manage them, and if you do have to use other systems, my god ghost heat has to be the worst. Almost every fps game has convergence mechanics so why the hell couldn't paul use one of those? Oh yes, because he has to make his own to show that he "works hard".

Actually we raged against convergence. We wanted shots to always hit where we aim. Go google convergence on the archived forum data. There were issues with fixing convergence and we asked for it to be removed.

PGI listened to us. I'm seeing more and more what a bad idea that tends to be.

[Mazzyplz]

MischiefSC, on 17 October 2015 - 01:30 PM, said:

Actually we raged against convergence. We wanted shots to always hit where we aim. Go google convergence on the archived forum data. There were issues with fixing convergence and we asked for it to be removed.

PGI listened to us. I'm seeing more and more what a bad idea that tends to be.

so it's all your fault then

[MischiefSC]

Mazzyplz, on 17 October 2015 - 03:55 PM, said:

so it's all your fault then

Pretty much. Me and everyone like me. We're a bunch of armchair a-holes who won't put our money where our mouth is.

[pbiggz]

MischiefSC, on 17 October 2015 - 04:46 PM, said:

Pretty much. Me and everyone like me. We're a bunch of armchair a-holes who won't put our money where our mouth is.

The forums back in closed beta are a strange strange place.

[grayson marik]

Deathlike, on 15 October 2015 - 09:03 PM, said:

It would just be easier to say..

Short answer: Because Paul

Long answer: It's a bad design since it's a bandaid for one issue, but obfuscates other issues with existing gameplay mechanics. Adding complex fixes instead of more sensible and more logical/viable options (like actual heat penalties like a slower mech, slower dissipation, HUD scrambling) that have been used in previous MW games have been totally ignored.

Try to explain "Ghost Heat" to your friends that don't play this game... and see if they don't laugh @ you outright.

InRev, on 15 October 2015 - 09:11 PM, said:

Because it's a very poor band-aid that doesn't fix the underlying causes of the problems in the first place, thus leading to the need of even more band-aids.

If this game had: 1) a proper heat scale, heat cap and heat dissipation; and 2) proper convergence mechanics, then obtuse, convoluted and unnatural mechanics like Ghost Heat™, Ghost Shields™, gauss charge-up etc would not be necessary.

Instead, what we have is a fundamentally broken game with a crap-ton of silly papering over the cracks every time a meta emerges. I'm morbidly curious to see what absurd Ghost Mechanic™ they will dream up next in order to nerf the meta that emerges if/when the current PTS changes go live. I'm sure it will be as asinine as their previous ideas.

Khobai, on 15 October 2015 - 09:45 PM, said:

1) it doesnt work. people circumvent it by using combinations of weapons with similar properties that are in different ghost heat groups. CERML and CLPL for example. And it was AC5/PPC before that and Gauss/PPC before that... before PPCs were nerfed into obsolescence.

2) it unfairly punishes weapons like SRMs that dont need ghost heat limits. Is it really necessary to punish people for firing x4 SRM4s which only do ~34 SPREAD damage? Especially since CERML/CLPL combopacks do upwards of 50+ PINPOINT damage and arnt penalized AT ALL? Its ridiculous.

3) the mechanic feels artificial and contrived. Its not intuitive at all. Its way too overcomplicated with its cross reference chart of linked weapon groups, weapon quantities, and heat penalties. They cant even explain properly how it works in-game and it confuses the HELL out of new players.

4) despite the implementation of ghost heat and other equally goofball ideas we still have a massive problem with high damage pinpoint alphas. because the #1 weapon balance problem, convergence, has never been properly addressed. Instead the problem has been completely sidestepped with bandaids that dont work. So naturally people are going to be resentful of such bandaids like ghost heat.

Just voted these for truth.
If PGI would have followed Lore and Battletech game mechanics, that have successfully been used before, there would be no need for Ghost Heat, nor the silly balancing runs every few month's, changing Mechs I bought long ago and was happy with.

• A dynamic BV system, adding Pilot, Mech and equipment BV to a single BV for proper matchmaking with BV limits on CW dropdecks and pug matches instead of tonnage and stupid 3/3/3/3 or all the other crap currently investigated.
  
• A real heat scale with effects on equipment and pilot
  
• A Weapon convergence with a need to lock targets in order to focus weapon fire more exactly

Those 3 should be really close to the sweet spot for almost everyone, without hardcapping skill, Mechlab knowledge and without rendering some Mechs useless and making others the only choice to take.

[Davers]

Random Carnage, on 16 October 2015 - 10:04 PM, said:

Try telling a person looking from the outside what ghost heat is and watch their reaction.

Two mechs, equal in all ways except one carries 2 guns and the other 4. Both fire only 2 guns. The 2 gun mech then cools down faster than the 4 gun mech, even though they both only fired 2 guns.

Erm..what?

Four space heaters will generate more heat than 1 space heater, even if they are all set to the same temperature.

oldradagast, on 17 October 2015 - 08:15 AM, said:

A cone of fire would fix most of the issues, and hardpoint limits would have prevented them, but PGI refuses to consider the cone of fire... despite using it to fix jump-sniping, and it is way too late in the game to add hardpoint limits.

Ok, you mention CoF all the time so I am going to finally ask: How many meters off target should the cone be at, say, 200m, 400m, 800, 1200m?

[Random Carnage]

Davers, on 17 October 2015 - 06:19 PM, said:

Four space heaters will generate more heat than 1 space heater, even if they are all set to the same temperature.

Running with this then, 4 space heaters mounted in a beer crate and another 4 in a shipping crate both buid up the same internal heat over the same time? Referencing 30 tonne vs 100 tonne chassis if same weapons and sinks equipped.

[Davers]

Random Carnage, on 17 October 2015 - 06:39 PM, said:

Running with this then, 4 space heaters mounted in a beer crate and another 4 in a shipping crate both buid up the same internal heat over the same time? Referencing 30 tonne vs 100 tonne chassis if same weapons and sinks equipped.

Why do you assume that a 100 ton mech has large amounts of empty space compared to the 30 ton mech? Surely there is much more myomer and other... mechstuff. (I realize that when using real physics 100 ton mechs would float on water, but I always figured mechs to be dense, not filled with empty shipping crate sized compartments)

[adamts01]

Maybe transferring all that power to so many lasers at once heats up the delivery system. And the chassis that have all energy hard points that can't afford all the ghost heat have a system designed to boat lasers. Idk. It doesn't really matter if it makes perfect sense. Balance matters. And lasers are better by a wide margin, even after ghost heat. It was just stupid before ghost heat. It really screwed some weapons but it made things as a while better. Plus this game is turning in to 1 or 2 shot deaths. That just sucks. I'm not whining because I'm getting one shotted either. Most of the time I'm on the giving end. I like cone fire too. Make shooting 8 lasers at once like an lbx10, 6 lasers would be like a lbx5. No penalty for 2 or 3 lasers. Maybe cut those values in half with a lock on. That would have been better than what they're doing. It punishes boats. This new system punishes my 2xmpl Mist Lynx. I know it doesn't punish it in to the ground, but it's still a small punishment where no punishment was deserved.

[Random Carnage]

Davers, on 17 October 2015 - 07:53 PM, said:

Why do you assume that a 100 ton mech has large amounts of empty space compared to the 30 ton mech? Surely there is much more myomer and other... mechstuff. (I realize that when using real physics 100 ton mechs would float on water, but I always figured mechs to be dense, not filled with empty shipping crate sized compartments)

Not sure if you're being obtuse. I'll assume not and clarify.

I was not referring to large empty spaces. Heat transference would be taking place simply from the radiant heat involved, and this would take place in addition to the effect of heat sinks. A larger mech has a greater surface area from which this heat can dissipate, therefore they should run cooler, all else being equal.

[Davers]

Random Carnage, on 17 October 2015 - 08:12 PM, said:

Not sure if you're being obtuse. I'll assume not and clarify.

I was not referring to large empty spaces. Heat transference would be taking place simply from the radiant heat involved, and this would take place in addition to the effect of heat sinks. A larger mech has a greater surface area from which this heat can dissipate, therefore they should run cooler, all else being equal.

Maybe they would also have greater insulation to prevent the mech being more affected by hostile environments as well?

Either way, I am not here to argue thermodynamics. My point is that Ghost Heat is no more convoluted or requiring of explanations as the rest of the highly implausible BT universe, or any other MWO game mechanic.

[adamts01]

Random Carnage, on 17 October 2015 - 06:39 PM, said:

Running with this then, 4 space heaters mounted in a beer crate and another 4 in a shipping crate both buid up the same internal heat over the same time? Referencing 30 tonne vs 100 tonne chassis if same weapons and sinks equipped.

We'll.... That's not true at all. You can heat a room with a small space heater but you'll never never get a whole house up to temp with it. But it doesn't matter. Balance is more important than perfect physics.

[Random Carnage]

adamts01, on 17 October 2015 - 08:40 PM, said:

You can heat a room with a small space heater but you'll never never get a whole house up to temp with it.

This was my point...which is why I used a question mark. It was implied that you could not heat the shipping container (house) in the same fashion as a beer crate (small room).

Either way, I'll bow out of this before I make observations on comprehension I may regret later. It is what it is, and I very much doubt anything we say about the matter will make one bit of difference. I'm very close to calling it quits with MWO anyway - my frustration level has reached saturation point. Better to give it a break and go do something else. We'll see.

[adamts01]

Random Carnage, on 17 October 2015 - 08:51 PM, said:

This was my point...which is why I used a question mark. It was implied that you could not heat the shipping container (house) in the same fashion as a beer crate (small room).

Either way, I'll bow out of this before I make observations on comprehension I may regret later. It is what it is, and I very much doubt anything we say about the matter will make one bit of difference. I'm very close to calling it quits with MWO anyway - my frustration level has reached saturation point. Better to give it a break and go do something else. We'll see.

sorry. I just woke up when I read that. New rule, never say anything before coffee. I hear you with the game. I just came back after 10 months and it's pretty sad. I'm going to try EVE. I have tons of free time. MWO is really the first game I've played online. I'll keep playing it because it's Mechwarrior but I can only handle small doses. Keeping my fingers crossed this game makes it.

[Fitzbattleaxe]

Davers, on 17 October 2015 - 06:19 PM, said:

Four space heaters will generate more heat than 1 space heater, even if they are all set to the same temperature.

Ghost heat is more like... I have four space heaters, and you have four space heaters. My four are all different brands (but with the same heat output), and yours are all the same brand. For some reason your room heats up faster.

[Davers]

Fitzbattleaxe, on 17 October 2015 - 09:50 PM, said:

Ghost heat is more like... I have four space heaters, and you have four space heaters. My four are all different brands (but with the same heat output), and yours are all the same brand. For some reason your room heats up faster.

I guess I just bought better heaters than you.