120 replies to this topic

[adamts01]

Do y'all not think lasers needed to be checked? Or checked more than they already were. I want variety in this game, and against equally skilled players lasers always win, in about every scenario. I see that as a problem. Maybe ghost heat is like fixing it with duct tape but it served it's purpose. And the way everyone whines about cone effect and lowering the heat cap I don't really see any other options that don't punish crap mechs also.

[Lightfoot]

I don't mind Ghost Heat, but DHS 1.4 (we never had DHS 2.0) ruins stock mechs like the Warhawk, Awesome, Adder because it is a core Battle Tech rules violation. Those stock mechs could not work at all without massive quirking to bypass DHS 1.4 it is so bad.

Ghost Heat doesn't interfere with mechs too much so you just get used to it.

[adamts01]

Lightfoot, on 17 October 2015 - 11:11 PM, said:

I don't mind Ghost Heat, but DHS 1.4 (we never had DHS 2.0) ruins stock mechs like the Warhawk, Awesome, Adder because it is a core Battle Tech rules violation. Those stock mechs could not work at all without massive quirking to bypass DHS 1.4 it is so bad.

Ghost Heat doesn't interfere with mechs too much so you just get used to it.

Quirks are great. They adapt mechs with no reason to take in a FPS to something that has some sort of use in some small way. And the few mechs that ghost heat ruined, give them some quirks. Most people that I see complaining about ghost heat don't like it because it wasn't in TT, they don't see it as a believable mechanic, or it ruined their OP build.

[ZenFool]

Not sure if anyone else mentioned it, so I'll open the can of worms... In TT, roleplaying, and books heat scale was far different. Heat could make your mech's aim go wonky, slow your torso twisting, speed, etc. long before you shut down or blew up. I'm sure it will never happen, but it would have made more sense than ghost heat. Ghost heat was a bandaid that no longer makes sense. It punishes many of the mechs(seen a kintaro recently?) while not doing a thing to solve the problem of boated weapons.

[Duke Nedo]

Random Carnage, on 17 October 2015 - 08:12 PM, said:

A larger mech has a greater surface area from which this heat can dissipate, therefore they should run cooler, all else being equal.

Just a general comment, if there is some kind of baseline heat involved as well, then a big mech will have less surface area than a small mech relative to it's volume, and a DWF (fat) would have less than a EXE (skinny). One could use that kind of reasoning to say that 4 lasers on one arm could create more heat than 2 lasers on each arm for example.

One can always come up with an explanation for diminishing returns/exponential penalties if needed, but that's not really where the problem lies...

[Appogee]

Ghost Heat was the wrong answer to the right question.

Question: how can we stop Mechs which min/max highly effective weapons from gaining a disproportionate advantage in damage?

PGI Answer: invent a whole new 'ghost heat' mechanic which defies the laws of physics, has arbitrary values, is not found in lore and is confusing for new players.

Better Answer: hardpoint limitations, such as sized hardpoints, or even just a hard limit to the number of a particular weapon which a Mech can carry. Heat could still play a role as a balancing mechanic without having to add incremental mystery ghost heat.

[Brizna]

Me do not hate ghost heat. Me thinks something better may be possible, but ghost heat better than nothing.

[PFC Carsten]

Ghost heat should only affect Weapons mounted into one location, like the 6E-arms of the Nova Prime, but not, for example the AC20 in a KGC's arms, since they're too far away to affect each other.

[adamts01]

Ghost heat absolutely reduced the problem of boating weapons. There just still needs to be a little more to fix the few more instances of ways to energy boat. And something that has always bothered me is how people claim that it being "mysterious" is a problem with the mechanic. Not really, it's a problem with PGI not making any effort to explain it.

[timaeus]

Davers, on 17 October 2015 - 06:19 PM, said:

Ok, you mention CoF all the time so I am going to finally ask: How many meters off target should the cone be at, say, 200m, 400m, 800, 1200m?

Does the size of the arm targeting reticle (small circle) at a ~600-700m target seem like a reasonable CoF as long as it's contant? Maybe a little larger? Basically enough of a spread that you can't pinpoint everything to one location at long range, but wouldn't matter closer. I'm not sure how many meters off that would be though.

[Davers]

timaeus, on 18 October 2015 - 08:31 AM, said:

Does the size of the arm targeting reticle (small circle) at a ~600-700m target seem like a reasonable CoF as long as it's contant? Maybe a little larger? Basically enough of a spread that you can't pinpoint everything to one location at long range, but wouldn't matter closer. I'm not sure how many meters off that would be though.

It would be quite a few. Enough that you probably couldn't hit a light mech at 600m. But most combat, at optimal weapon ranges, happen under 600m. You would need to have the CoF be active at ranges much shorter than that, unless we are only trying to eliminate long range engagements.

[NextGame]

adamts01, on 16 October 2015 - 02:57 AM, said:

How about you're specific problem with it instead of an insult? God i wish kids like you would try to talk to me like this face to face.

I could pick out a "specific problem" with it rather than just insult you, but it's quite difficult to separate a specific piece of gibberish from the rest of the utter nonsense that you posted. Your internet threats are crap too btw, no one is impressed.

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Laser spamming is a problem.

False, laser spamming is a problem only to those who like to complain about whatever flavour of the month balance "problem" happens to rustle their jimmies. Instead of trying harder they just moan about it until it gets changed, and players adapt resulting in another flavor of the month problem to whine about.

In summary: laser spamming is not a problem, it is a symptom.

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Every mech that is complained about is a laser spammer.

Just about every single mech has been complained about at one point or other. Does that mean that every single mech is a laser spammer? This statement is therefore false.

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Cheetah, Firestarter, timber, crow... Ghost heat is a simple thing to lessen those alphas.

Alphas are not a problem either, incidentally. They are a legitimate way in which to play the game, and players shouldn't be forced into say, mixed builds, simply because some balance whiner who thinks that everyone should be "enjoying" the game a specific way that they would like them to says so.

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I say more ghost heat.

I say remove ghost heat entirely. Stop band-aiding the mechanics instead of doing something regarding convergence (which is the actual problem, as opposed to "alpas" or laser spamming.). Alpha's and laser spamming are 2 different things. You do realise that, right?

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The other mechanic that sounds great is a cone fire that increases with number of lasers fired within 1/2 second.

The other mechanic that you have posted about that sounds stupid is a cone of fire that would increase with the number of lasers fired within 1/2 second.

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The reason both these mechanics are ideal is that they don't punish the crappy mechs that only have 2 or 3 lasers the way these targeting solutions do and they would be easy to introduce.

The reason that the cone of fire idea sounds stupid is that it punishes people who can build their mechs properly and actually aim by shoving in the MWO equivalent of a random number generator.

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With the new range mechanic, how do you counter snipe a 3L? You can't lock him.

How will they counter snipe you in your 3L? Stupid band aids are stupid.

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He'll always out range you by 40%. They'll be everywhere. And that's not good. And I'm not hating on laser spammers, they're just broken.

Whenever the balance of any player vs player game changes, there will always be a "best". True story. Followed by a bunch of people whining about what that best happens to be because they don't want to have to play it.

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With the sad state of the Oceanic server and the lopsided matches I resulted to waiting linger for a match and only using my Timber so it would be easier to carry a bad team. So yeah, ghost heat, bring it on. With that happening and the ECM nerf missiles will be a great alternative to stacking lasers.

1: Too bad for people playing on the oceanic servers. Its a shame that people cannot choose to play on other regions servers.. oh, wait...!

2. LRMpocalypse lol. Happens with practically every single major mechanics balance change, then everyone whines and leaves the game for a month or so while PGI tone down whatever idiocy they happen to have implemented.

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And mixed builds are good for game play.

Mixed builds are terrible for game play. They only suit people who want to run mixed builds and result in even more 2 dimensional game play than we currently have by strangling the life out of other types of builds that are logically better than mixed builds if you remove all the goofy mechanics that have been added to the game to appease the "wahh my mixed build sucks" and balance whiners.

Edited by NextGame, 18 October 2015 - 10:33 AM.

[adamts01]

Wow. That effort was as legendary as your founders tag. I think 144 posts is enough of a waste of time for me. Another week till I'm out of Manila, then it's back to no Internet and living on the beach till I'm ready for another dose of reality. Maybe after another 10 month brake they'll fix my beloved mechwarrior.

[Troutmonkey]

El Bandito, on 15 October 2015 - 09:47 PM, said:

Energy draw system is what I advocate. If the total weapons fired exceeds energy draw requirements (exact value is subject to change) then the computer will force chain-fire the excess weapons. Easier on the newbies, easier to remember the value, and much less convoluted. In addition, it can take care of Gaussvomit cheese, and dual Gauss Direwhale, something GH cannot do at all.

Or, just add a cone of fire when shooting too many weapons. That's much easier as it's in every shooter ever.
http://mwomercs.com/...of-convergence/

Ghost heat is horribad because as said, it's easily circumvented and hit all the wrong weapons. In chain fire you could overheat with just AC2's in ~3 seconds.
https://youtu.be/Oe1r8n4NzKI?t=53

[MischiefSC]

I'm in favor of a CoF/convergence style mechanic. There are some people who will go apeshit over their shots not going exactly where they aim.

Ghost Heat was more palatable to them.

Edited by MischiefSC, 18 October 2015 - 03:26 PM.

[Troutmonkey]

Remember kids - Ghost Heat didn't end the PPC meta.

Direct PPC nerfs (reduced velocity, increased heat) killed the PPC meta.

NextGame, on 18 October 2015 - 10:26 AM, said:

I could pick out a "specific problem" with it rather than just insult you, but it's quite difficult to separate a specific piece of gibberish from the rest of the utter nonsense that you posted. Your internet threats are crap too btw, no one is impressed.

Your arguments are bad and you should feel bad. "Git gud" isn't a valid argument.
Everyone can see plain as day that there is a balance issue, and it needs to be addressed. Calling out balance problems doesn't make you a "balance whiner".

Clan Lasers and laser spam in general needs a nerf. The range, accuracy and damage is simply too high compared to other load outs. You "could" make other weapons more powerful to match, but that ends in a powercreeping arms race that ends with everyone dying in one alpha.

Cone of Fire for High Alpha's encourages balanced loadouts and weapons fire discipline. Skilled players will know when to alpha for damage or when to stagger fire for accuracy.

[TexAce]

I'd much rather have a "Target computer overload -> CoF/Convergence" penalty when boating/alphaing a weapon than Ghost Heat any day.

ANY. DAY.

Seriously, that's all there needs to be. Nothing else.

Edited by TexAce, 18 October 2015 - 04:19 PM.

[oldradagast]

MischiefSC, on 18 October 2015 - 03:23 PM, said:

I'm in favor of a CoF/convergence style mechanic. There are some people who will go apeshit over their shots not going exactly where they aim.

Ghost Heat was more palatable to them.

Of course it was. They quickly moved on to Dual Gauss, most likely, or some pile of pulse lasers, which, at least for a time, didn't have ghost heat. Too many people love a mechanic that punishes "the other guy" while still allowing them to run their own meta builds, and thus their opinions are worthless from the viewpoint of proper game design. Ghost damage on lasers is just more of the same idiocy. "Clan lasers killed me, so nerf lasers!" It's frightening how many people have learned NOTHING from the endless rounds of weapon nerfs and nonsense mechanics piled up thus far to "fix" the game. We still have boating and we still have pinpoint, high-damage alphas. Until that is fixed, nothing will really change.

Edited by oldradagast, 18 October 2015 - 05:36 PM.

[MischiefSC]

So we need to move past them/us. We're all playing the game, our money spends the same and our likes/dislikes are just as valid.

So we need a solution that is only mildly bad for everyone.

That is where I think a convergence/cof nerf at range with no lock is a good compromise. It provides a way for people to maintain pinpoint full alpha in the right circumstances while breaking that up in many other situations.

You're going to get further with this idea if you incorporate it into the existing iw concept. I think though a conditional cof/convergence effect might fly.

[Project_Mercy]

Ghost heat succeeded in discouraging boating while at the same time being somewhat easy to implement and not require an overhaul of any of the UIs. So in that regard, it was a success. That said, it has been there for a while and it's showing it's age as time goes on and I think it's fair that people keep pointing out that it would be nice if one of the better options that have been discussed back before Ghost Heat was implemente saw the light of day at some point. Me, I guess I fall into the sized hardpoint thing, but some CoF would probably also be OK. A mixture of the two would probably make for a more interesting game.

Then again, I don't really like the mechlab much to begin with and I'm not a huge fan of all the min-maxing.