88 replies to this topic

[Damascas]

To make your Hunchback move that fast you gotta remove the AC20 and are probably dropping the firepower down to that of a light mech and probably also reducing the armor to little more than a light. The Hunchback is pretty much an upgunned urbanmech, it was built to be a cheap effective city fighter and while it excels at that outside of the close quarters environment it often has difficulty being an effective independent unit. Working as a team with other mechs I have no doubt it will find a great purpose but I do not see it being better than an Atlas unless you are operating on a tight budget.

Riffleman, on 09 July 2012 - 02:26 AM, said:

This is how I picture my final product!

Do you take commissions?

[Bassom]

I chose the Hunchback over the Atlas because i didn't want to be in the Lyran Scout Lance:)

[ScrapIron Prime]

Hunchback upgrade, moving at 6/9 rate (96 kph):

Upgrade to a Gauss Rifle with 24 shots: 2 tons
Upgrade to a 300 XL Engine and rated gyro : 2 tons
Upgrade to 10 Double Heat Sinks: -3 tons
Upgrade to maximum Ferro Fibrous Armor: -1 tons

Internal Spaces in a Battlemech: 47
Internal Spaces used for all the above plus laser armament: 33

All it takes is c-bills. (And I should add that according to tabletop, that's still less c-bills than the cost of a stock Atlas!)

And for this I assume endosteel is not available, since updating a mech's skeleton may or may not be allowed in mech lab. But if it is, you can add two more medium lasers and convert the small laser to a medium (total of 5 ML).

Edited by ScrapIron Prime, 09 July 2012 - 09:18 AM.

[Bongo TauKat]

I always thought the 3025 Atlas was over rated. It moved like an old man with a walker, and at ranges past 270m, it only had one LRM system. Granted its armor is impressive, but it can easily get picked apart by say an Archer, or even a lowly Trebuchet.

As for the Hunchie going at it, it does have the same range restrictions, if played right the HBK can runs circles around the AS7 while getting those all important rear armor shots with the AC20.

[Damascas]

Using the same tech you can get an Atlas up to 4/6 with 2 Gauss rifles, 12 shots each, 6 MLs, and more armor than the Hunchback, the original question for the thread was stock though. Stock the Atlas is far better than the Hunchback in all areas but speed where the Hunchback has a small advantage and cost where there is a significant difference.

Bongo TauKat Talasko, on 09 July 2012 - 09:16 AM, said:

I always thought the 3025 Atlas was over rated. It moved like an old man with a walker, and at ranges past 270m, it only had one LRM system. Granted its armor is impressive, but it can easily get picked apart by say an Archer, or even a lowly Trebuchet.

As for the Hunchie going at it, it does have the same range restrictions, if played right the HBK can runs circles around the AS7 while getting those all important rear armor shots with the AC20.

Actually, the Hunchback cannot run circles around the Atlas given that they have almost the same speed.

Edited by Damascas, 09 July 2012 - 09:18 AM.

[ScrapIron Prime]

And if you do that to the Atlas, it costs 3 times as much as the modified Hunchback, and about 7 times as much as a regular hunchback. i would HATE to get that repair bill if you get nuked.

[Damascas]

ScrapIron Prime, on 09 July 2012 - 09:19 AM, said:

And if you do that to the Atlas, it costs 3 times as much as the modified Hunchback, and about 7 times as much as a regular hunchback. i would HATE to get that repair bill if you get nuked.

Yes, showing the one real strength the HBK has over the AS7, cost effectiveness.

[Schtirlitz]

Own preference, playstyle and maintenance cost.
May be role in an upcoming grouop battle.

[Urbancat]

what i dearly hope is the game don't end up in a 24 atlas brawl. i hope every weight class have it's way to shine.
Personally i choose the hunchback, an assoult mech i think is less forgiving if you make errors, learning how to pilot in an huncback will allow me to be less a problem to my team should i screw up and still retain enough firepower to deal some damage.

[wanderer]

One biggie?

Repair costs. You're plunking along in that big ol' Atlas and the other team gets wind of you at a bad point.

You end up eating a lance's worth of firepower and end up missing both arms and a leg in short order, followed by them pummeling you to death at long range with PPC and laser fire while you hobble forward at a gimp crawl.

Repair bills then give you a heart attack, you die from the shock, and your MWO experience is ended in a horrible agonizing manner.

Don't be that guy with a horrible death waiting for him. Pilot a Hunchback

[BigJim]

Damascas, on 09 July 2012 - 08:53 AM, said:

People keep saying how the Hunchback is noticeably faster but isn't it only like 10kph difference?

That's exactly my point

If the Devs have to abandon or tweak the TT speeds for each mech, to make sure that the roles work correctly for a computer game - So be it imo.

I'd be happy with the Atty going slower than the TT rules say it "should", that's the sort of thing that would force Atty players to pick their position very carefully, because they wouldn't have the speed to take up a new position, or to change to plan-B quickly enough to counter the Heavies & Mediums who can.

Not talking about utterly nerfing it's speed, but just making the difference between a Heavy/Med speed and an Assault speed more noticeable than in the TT (because obviously, in TT you've got Battle Value to make it worth taking Heavy/Mediums, but in MWO we need other reasons & speed is a good one in any combat game).

Edited by BigJim, 09 July 2012 - 10:27 AM.

[Bodha]

Butane9000, on 09 July 2012 - 06:29 AM, said:

Main difference is using an Atlas gives you more choices in firepower over a Hunchback. It also gives you enhanced armor in comparison meaning you take more to kill. The downside if that your a lot slower then a Hunchback.

YOU forgot that other downside.... ATLAS is much bigger target than a Hunchback.

Atlas has more weapons and armor, but loses out on speed, agility, and target size. Sure you can bump the speed up, but the cost is so prohibitive that you end up wiping out most of your weapon advantage. Much better to simply accept that an Atlas is a siege mech and build it out as such. The only real question with an Atlas is weapon configurations. You have so much space to work with that you can easily turn this thing into a super support mech, a massive alpha striker, or a solid suppressive fire mech.

Where people make the mistake is thinking that assault mechs will have a high ability to kill enemy mechs b/c they got a bunch of guns. What they have is the ability to control the ground in front of them very well through overwhelming firepower. The suck though at moving around, shooting nimble small stuff, and generally chasing anything. People will likely settle on mediums being the chasers, lights being scouts and harassment, heavies providing support or maneuverable firepower, and assaults being lane holders. By lane holders I mean they will find an area that isnt easily flanked and spend the match nuking anything that tries to come through that area.

[ScrapIron Prime]

One on one, an assault mech will pound a medium mech into so much scrap metal. But these fights aren't going to be one on one, and that makes all the difference.

Plus... repair costs.

[Uri Brauer]

Atlas was a bad choice.

Try again, but start with an Orion or Zeus (to get a 4/6 speed at a viable weight with an AC hardpoint). Orion gives you the torso mount, so it's the closest match for your heavy Hunchback concept...

[Glythe]

Bodha, on 09 July 2012 - 10:55 AM, said:

YOU forgot that other downside.... ATLAS is much bigger target than a Hunchback.

Atlas has more weapons and armor, but loses out on speed, agility, and target size. Sure you can bump the speed up, but the cost is so prohibitive that you end up wiping out most of your weapon advantage. Much better to simply accept that an Atlas is a siege mech and build it out as such. The only real question with an Atlas is weapon configurations. You have so much space to work with that you can easily turn this thing into a super support mech, a massive alpha striker, or a solid suppressive fire mech.

I'm surprised no one mentioned the size difference previously.

The real question the OP needs to consider is what role do I want to play on the battlefield? Unless you are goofing around there is no reason to scale up the speed of the Atlas to the speed of a medium. It's a huge target and even if you made it fast it will probably suffer against LRM spam.

The point of being big is that you scare away smaller mechs or destroy those foolish enough to engage you. But if you take off almost all the guns you're just a super expensive heavily armored plus sized medium that can't turn well. Why would you want that? Do you look forward to running away from large mechs?

[Haldricht]

Give me a choice of targets and I'll take the slowest lightest mechs first. They'll be easy targets and they'll crumble quickly, giving my team an instant numbers advantage. It'll take fewer LRM barrages to drop a Hunchback than it will to drop an Atlas - I'd guess half as many, maybe even fewer. At the end of a mission, do you think it'll be cheaper to repair an annihilated Hunchback or the armor on an Atlas?

[Bongo TauKat]

Damascas, on 09 July 2012 - 09:18 AM, said:

Using the same tech you can get an Atlas up to 4/6 with 2 Gauss rifles, 12 shots each, 6 MLs, and more armor than the Hunchback, the original question for the thread was stock though. Stock the Atlas is far better than the Hunchback in all areas but speed where the Hunchback has a small advantage and cost where there is a significant difference.



Actually, the Hunchback cannot run circles around the Atlas given that they have almost the same speed.

You would be surprised with that extra MP in the board game.

[Melcyna]

And that ignores the other speed related parameter in a real time game like MWO...

ie: in real time, the issue of acceleration becomes an actual concern... if the Atlas with massive engine upgrade can achieve the same top speed as the hunchback but takes 8 seconds to reach it's top speed while the hunchback can accelerate to it's top speed in half the time then the hunchback is still more mobile than the Atlas even if their top speed is the same.

and of course the turning speed and torse turning rate comes into play...

if the Atlas turn speed and torso turn rate is much slower than the Hunchback then the Hunchback will LITERALLY run circles around it, circle strafing it like a bully against a fat kid who can't turn to engage the hunchback effectively. Nor can it simply disengage either since the Hunchback will still accelerate better than it.

Note that in all this they both could have the same top speed and it wouldn't matter at all, the only way the Atlas could escape that then is for it to have higher top speed and reasonable acceleration to actually escape before shot to little pieces in the back.

[Rofleupagus]

I love this theory crafting.

[Kanatta Jing]

I don't think it's the cost of repair that slows down the Atlas.
I think it's the cost of buying all 4 Atlas variants,

I didn't Pick the Atlas as a founders because I didn't feel like marrying it.