205 replies to this topic

[TheArisen]

Kurvi, on 23 December 2015 - 12:12 PM, said:

1v1s From Canon:

Phelan beat Vlad (Wolfhound IIC vs. Adder D).
Phelan drew with Kai (Wolfhound IIC vs. YLW).
Kai beat Vlad (Stormcrow vs. TBR).

Marack, you're gonna roll your eyes but I think this shows Phelan was the better pilot. Vlad lost to Kai whilst Phelan had a draw. Seems like a straight forward bench mark to me.

[Luca M Pryde]

Marthe Pryde. One of the best pilots in the card game. Also in the novels extremely good at war strategy and logistics.

[martian]

Luca M Pryde, on 03 January 2016 - 03:45 AM, said:

Marthe Pryde. One of the best pilots in the card game. Also in the novels extremely good at war strategy and logistics.

Sorry, but as MechWarrior Marthe Pryde was not in the same league as Kai Allard-Liao.

As strategist, she was not too successful, for example on Coventry.

As for her intra-Clan politics, the entire caste of her own Clan rebelled against her.

As for inter-Clan politics, under her rule the Jade Falcons have been kicked from the Clan Homeworlds.

[TheArisen]

martian, on 03 January 2016 - 06:45 AM, said:

Sorry, but as MechWarrior Marthe Pryde was not in the same league as Kai Allard-Liao.

As strategist, she was not too successful, for example on Coventry.

As for her intra-Clan politics, the entire caste of her own Clan rebelled against her.

As for inter-Clan politics, under her rule the Jade Falcons have been kicked from the Clan Homeworlds.

Well stated.

This thread is for people you'd put in your top ten/best ever. Being in the top %10 isn't the same.

[TheArisen]

It seems we've more or less established Kai & Natasha as being tied for first. Is there anyone comparable? Is there anyone from the post Clan invasion era or anyone that served with Kerensky?

[Luca M Pryde]

martian, on 03 January 2016 - 06:45 AM, said:

Sorry, but as MechWarrior Marthe Pryde was not in the same league as Kai Allard-Liao.

As strategist, she was not too successful, for example on Coventry.

As for her intra-Clan politics, the entire caste of her own Clan rebelled against her.

As for inter-Clan politics, under her rule the Jade Falcons have been kicked from the Clan Homeworlds.

I completely disagree with all of you.

Although I haven't read the dark age or jihad novels where I heard she was assassinated, she was responsible for smashing the steel vipers, rebuilding her clan after the war with the wolves and invading Coventry which was a success! She managed to blood her new warriors and then left when the Inner Sphere came with overwhelming numbers from units from multiple houses. And not a shot was fired from the withdrawal. Massive success. The Jade falcons had gained territory under her rule.

I forget the second invasion but where their attack was thwarted by a counter attack from Victor's force the final result was that the jade falcons had taken more worlds from the Lyran alliance than they had lost from Victor. It was not her fault that a secret alliance with the wolves and Katrina, alliances with the com guards and Victor managed to stop units form attacking each other enough to make an offensive against the jade falcons. And again they were able to blood new warriors creating a bigger veteran force. Fear Caesar for his veteran legions.

Not sure if it was her doing as khan but I read somewhere that the Jade Falcons knocked the Ice hellions back from invasion and made an alliance with the ice hellions to counter the Wolves. Which happened during the jihad.

As for inter-clan politics, all clans are almost always at war with each other. It is their way of life.

As for the entire caste rebelling against her, when did that happen? Either way she has had many more successes than failures and the Jade Falcons have surpassed all the clans in might, power and strategy since the battle of Tukayyid. Pretty good for a clan surrounded by enemies being much smaller than any house. I see Kai Allard and Victor as a bunch of royal elitist snobs who have had their whole lives to train in battlemechs with the funding of whole houses to support them. Can't say the same for the rest of the IS. That's probably why they rely on mercenaries for most of their wars because house warriors are mostly green and ill trained.

Clanners are bred for war. Not enough recognition or respect is given. For example, Joanna killed Natasha Kerensky. Who would of thought a blood namesless star captain could do that.

Edited by Luca M Pryde, 06 January 2016 - 05:27 AM.

[martian]

Luca M Pryde, on 06 January 2016 - 05:26 AM, said:

I completely disagree with all of you.

Surely you can.

Luca M Pryde, on 06 January 2016 - 05:26 AM, said:

Although I haven't read the dark age or jihad novels where I heard she was assassinated, she was responsible for smashing the steel vipers, rebuilding her clan after the war with the wolves and invading Coventry which was a success! She managed to blood her new warriors and then left when the Inner Sphere came with overwhelming numbers from units from multiple houses. And not a shot was fired from the withdrawal. Massive success. The Jade falcons had gained territory under her rule.

Let's check the Coventry Incursion point after point: What was Marthe Pryde's intent and what was the actual result

1) Her intent: To bloody the new generation of the CJF warriors.
The actual result: The losses have been described as "calamitous".
2) Her intent: To deterr other Clans from attacking the Jade Falcons.
The actual result: The Steel Vipers attacked the Clan Jade Falcon OZ after the Jade Falcons were routed from Coventry. And although the Jade Falcons defeated the Steel Vipers, they stayed on the defensive since then. Dreams about the conquest of the Inner Sphere? Forget it.
3) Her intent: To show that the Jade Falcons were fit to lead all invading Clans.
The actual result: No signs of submission from the side of the Wolves or the Ghost Bears or any other Clan to the Falcons.

And the worst long-term result: The spirit of co-operation on the IS side (from Coventry) lead to the founding of the Second Star League, Operations Bulldog and Serpent (i.e. the destruction of the Clan Smoke Jaguar) and to the Great Refusal that was won by the Inner Sphere and stopped the Clan Invasion.

And all that was possible thanks Marthe Pryde.

Luca M Pryde, on 06 January 2016 - 05:26 AM, said:

I forget the second invasion but where their attack was thwarted by a counter attack from Victor's force the final result was that the jade falcons had taken more worlds from the Lyran alliance than they had lost from Victor. It was not her fault that a secret alliance with the wolves and Katrina, alliances with the com guards and Victor managed to stop units form attacking each other enough to make an offensive against the jade falcons. And again they were able to blood new warriors creating a bigger veteran force. Fear Caesar for his veteran legions.

In other words, her enemies formed successful alliances while Marthe Pryde failed to do so and had to camp in her OZ.

Luca M Pryde, on 06 January 2016 - 05:26 AM, said:

Not sure if it was her doing as khan but I read somewhere that the Jade Falcons knocked the Ice hellions back from invasion and made an alliance with the ice hellions to counter the Wolves. Which happened during the jihad.

The Ice Hellions were the clowns of the Clans. Soon after their ill-planned IS invasion started, it became completely disorganized and was routed after less than one year.

Luca M Pryde, on 06 January 2016 - 05:26 AM, said:

As for inter-clan politics, all clans are almost always at war with each other. It is their way of life.

I like how you dismiss the Jade Falcons' expulsion from Strana Mechty and Clan Homeworlds, and destruction of their HW units.

Luca M Pryde, on 06 January 2016 - 05:26 AM, said:

As for the entire caste rebelling against her, when did that happen?

In 3072.

Luca M Pryde, on 06 January 2016 - 05:26 AM, said:

Either way she has had many more successes than failures and the Jade Falcons have surpassed all the clans in might, power and strategy since the battle of Tukayyid. Pretty good for a clan surrounded by enemies being much smaller than any house. I see Kai Allard and Victor as a bunch of royal elitist snobs who have had their whole lives to train in battlemechs with the funding of whole houses to support them. Can't say the same for the rest of the IS. That's probably why they rely on mercenaries for most of their wars because house warriors are mostly green and ill trained.

Try again.

For example the AFFS had about 80 line regiments. Only about 17 regiments were rated as "Green" - that's less than one quarter. Three quarters of the AFFS were rated as Elite, Veteran or Regular. So much for your idea that "house warriors are mostly green and ill trained".

[Luca M Pryde]

martian, on 06 January 2016 - 02:25 PM, said:

Let's check the Coventry Incursion point after point: What was Marthe Pryde's intent and what was the actual result

1) Her intent: To bloody the new generation of the CJF warriors.
The actual result: The losses have been described as "calamitous".

That doesn't mean anything. Just a fluffy word with no stats.
Read this link for more insight.

http://www.sarna.net...Incursion_(3058)

The Lyrans lost a lot more than the Falcons and most of Jade Falcon forces were green troops yet they were still able to do serious damage.

martian, on 06 January 2016 - 02:25 PM, said:

2) Her intent: To deterr other Clans from attacking the Jade Falcons.
The actual result: The Steel Vipers attacked the Clan Jade Falcon OZ after the Jade Falcons were routed from Coventry. And although the Jade Falcons defeated the Steel Vipers, they stayed on the defensive since then. Dreams about the conquest of the Inner Sphere? Forget it.

How has the Battle of Coventry got to do with Marthe Pryde's intent on deterring other Clans from invading Jade Falcon? Jade Falcon did very well against other clans and usually receives many bondsmen from them. See the harvest trials that happened after the refusal war and battle of Coventry.

See this link. http://www.sarna.net.../Harvest_Trials

Not all conflicts are as big as the Wolf and Steel Viper conflicts in clan wars.

By invading the Inner Sphere and not destroying and absorbing the wolves she was able to keep the Inner Sphere crusader philosophy strong in the clans. The Steel Vipers are wardens and will always be a threat and so is Ghost Bear. Better to have the Wolves face off against the Ghost Bears in the long run.
Conquering the IS is a long term goal. It would take many, many years to complete. No clan or house has the logistics or size to even do that. You have to do it in waves and build up garrison forces gradually.

martian, on 06 January 2016 - 02:25 PM, said:

3) Her intent: To show that the Jade Falcons were fit to lead all invading Clans.
The actual result: No signs of submission from the side of the Wolves or the Ghost Bears or any other Clan to the Falcons.

Clan Jade Falcon is the strongest crusader clan. The warden clans don't have any will to invade the Inner Sphere.

She discovered that the IS could bring a coalition force to defend against the clan invasion. That was quite a big discovery.

martian, on 06 January 2016 - 02:25 PM, said:

And the worst long-term result: The spirit of co-operation on the IS side (from Coventry) lead to the founding of the Second Star League, Operations Bulldog and Serpent (i.e. the destruction of the Clan Smoke Jaguar) and to the Great Refusal that was won by the Inner Sphere and stopped the Clan Invasion.

And all that was possible thanks Marthe Pryde.

LOL. That was going to happen anyway. The IS wanted to take back all their lost worlds from all the clans.
Marthe Pryde was able to adapt to various situations and still win. The battle of Coventry was a win-draw, Steel Viper ejection win, harvest trials win, second battle of Coventry win-draw again, refusal battle in Strana Mechty was a win.

If there was no Victor coming to the Lyran alliance's aid, there would be no Lyran Alliance. The problem with clans in general is their intelligence gathering.

Although after being in the IS for so long I am sure the writers of Battletech can at least give the clans some sort of intelligence gathering capability so that surprise coalition attacks cannot be easily achieved.

Every invasion is a test of strength and gives the opportunity for green warriors to become veterans and gain experience. Also makes the clan warriors happier if you like (culture).

martian, on 06 January 2016 - 02:25 PM, said:

In other words, her enemies formed successful alliances while Marthe Pryde failed to do so and had to camp in her OZ.

Clans are ideas people. They believe in honor. They don't need alliances. Crusader clans with similar ideas can lose warriors very quickly. See harvest trials link.

Jade Falcon had deals with other clans like the Snow Ravens which included many warships and a world. Although the Snow Ravens got the shits for a bit because they lost 2 full clusters in the harvest trials. Clans don't make alliances. There might be rarely a mass invasion created by the grand council or a trial of annihilation but no alliances are needed.

martian, on 06 January 2016 - 02:25 PM, said:

The Ice Hellions were the clowns of the Clans. Soon after their ill-planned IS invasion started, it became completely disorganized and was routed after less than one year.

The Ice Hellions lost because of experience. They had fresh troops and had the best chance they would ever get at taking on an IS clan.

martian, on 06 January 2016 - 02:25 PM, said:

I like how you dismiss the Jade Falcons' expulsion from Strana Mechty and Clan Homeworlds, and destruction of their HW units.

The wars of Reaving haven't been documented properly yet. There is only that sourcebook, sarna and maybe a small ebook. Please reference what you know about them.

As far I know from what I read the Steel Vipers invaded and won and then the Steel Vipers got annihilated. I don't know the details and they are sketchy anyway. Also some secret society then came and got annihilated as well.

But all IS clans got evicted from the clan home worlds. Considering they are very far away from the main battles happening it was probably a blessing in disguise. Having no unit in the clan home worlds does not mean they don't turn up to the grand council. Although I am not sure if they are allowed in anymore.

martian, on 06 January 2016 - 02:25 PM, said:

Try again.

For example the AFFS had about 80 line regiments. Only about 17 regiments were rated as "Green" - that's less than one quarter. Three quarters of the AFFS were rated as Elite, Veteran or Regular. So much for your idea that "house warriors are mostly green and ill trained".

The clan forces invading Coventry were mostly green. Yet still were able to give experienced mercenary units such as the Wolf Dragoons and the Eridani Light Horse a run for their money. Eventually they had to turn to guerrilla warfare. That is a major strategic win. Mercenary units tend to be the most elite units in the IS.

Clan green troops = IS veteran troops thanks to superior technology and great military strategy by their leaders.

Anyhow, this is all opinionated at the end of the day. Can't believe I wrote so much.

Edited by Luca M Pryde, 07 January 2016 - 02:55 AM.

[martian]

Luca M Pryde, on 07 January 2016 - 02:41 AM, said:

That doesn't mean anything. Just a fluffy word with no stats.
Read this link for more insight.

http://www.sarna.net...Incursion_(3058)

The Lyrans lost a lot more than the Falcons and most of Jade Falcon forces were green troops yet they were still able to do serious damage.

I am quoting canon BattleTech material (Era Report: 3062), while you are posting link to fanmade Sarna. The word "calamitous" is usually not used to decribe a successful mission.

Luca M Pryde, on 07 January 2016 - 02:41 AM, said:

How has the Battle of Coventry got to do with Marthe Pryde's intent on deterring other Clans from invading Jade Falcon?

It was intended to be a show of force. Again, it's in canon BattleTech materials (The Battle of Coventry).

And considering that the Steel Vipers attacked the Jade Falcons, it's obvious that Marthe Pryde's strategy of deterrence didn't work ...

Luca M Pryde, on 07 January 2016 - 02:41 AM, said:

Jade Falcon did very well against other clans and usually receives many bondsmen from them. See the harvest trials that happened after the refusal war and battle of Coventry.

See this link. http://www.sarna.net.../Harvest_Trials

Not all conflicts are as big as the Wolf and Steel Viper conflicts in clan wars.

By invading the Inner Sphere and not destroying and absorbing the wolves she was able to keep the Inner Sphere crusader philosophy strong in the clans. The Steel Vipers are wardens and will always be a threat and so is Ghost Bear. Better to have the Wolves face off against the Ghost Bears in the long run.
Conquering the IS is a long term goal. It would take many, many years to complete. No clan or house has the logistics or size to even do that. You have to do it in waves and build up garrison forces gradually.

Nice try.

But it still doesn't change the canon fact (The Battle of Coventry) that the Coventry invasion was intended to show that the Jade Falcon should lead all the Clans in the conquest of the IS. And that didn't happen.
Or have I missed the moment when the Wolves, the Ghost Bears or the Smoke Jaguars (or any other Clan) accepted the CJF leadership role?

Luca M Pryde, on 07 January 2016 - 02:41 AM, said:

Clan Jade Falcon is the strongest crusader clan. The warden clans don't have any will to invade the Inner Sphere.

What about checking the BattleTech canon?
1) The Warden Clans didn't have to invade the IS in the late 3050s and early 3060s - they have already arrived there. See the Clan Ghost Bear that just in that timeframe underwent the transition from the Crusader to the Warden side. But in the late 3050s they were still Crusaders.
2) BattleTech canon sources (Field Manual: Warden Clans) state clearly that "Clan Ghost Bear boasts the largest military force among the Clans" .

Luca M Pryde, on 07 January 2016 - 02:41 AM, said:

She discovered that the IS could bring a coalition force to defend against the clan invasion. That was quite a big discovery.

What a masterpiece of strategic genius. Realizing that various enemy nations can form alliances ...

Luca M Pryde, on 07 January 2016 - 02:41 AM, said:

LOL. That was going to happen anyway.

Nice guess. But the canon fact (Era Report:3062) is that it happened as result of Marthe Pryde's Coventry incursion. Obviously she failed to anticipate the consequences of her deeds.

Luca M Pryde, on 07 January 2016 - 02:41 AM, said:

The IS wanted to take back all their lost worlds from all the clans.
Marthe Pryde was able to adapt to various situations and still win. The battle of Coventry was a win-draw, Steel Viper ejection win, harvest trials win, second battle of Coventry win-draw again, refusal battle in Strana Mechty was a win.

If there was no Victor coming to the Lyran alliance's aid, there would be no Lyran Alliance. The problem with clans in general is their intelligence gathering.

Although after being in the IS for so long I am sure the writers of Battletech can at least give the clans some sort of intelligence gathering capability so that surprise coalition attacks cannot be easily achieved.

Every invasion is a test of strength and gives the opportunity for green warriors to become veterans and gain experience. Also makes the clan warriors happier if you like (culture).

And her victories lead to the sad fact that Clan Jade Falcon have stayed in its OZ with no hope of conquering the Inner Sphere or Terra (By the way, wasn't this the primary goal of the Clan Invasion?), and to the Jade Falcons' expulsion from the Homeworlds and to the loss of all its Homeworlds holdings and factories.

Luca M Pryde, on 07 January 2016 - 02:41 AM, said:

Clans are ideas people. They believe in honor. They don't need alliances. Crusader clans with similar ideas can lose warriors very quickly. See harvest trials link.

Jade Falcon had deals with other clans like the Snow Ravens which included many warships and a world. Although the Snow Ravens got the shits for a bit because they lost 2 full clusters in the harvest trials. Clans don't make alliances. There might be rarely a mass invasion created by the grand council or a trial of annihilation but no alliances are needed.

Sorry, but the reality is different: Clans make alliances. The "Snake Alliance" was extremely successful in the Homeworlds.

Luca M Pryde, on 07 January 2016 - 02:41 AM, said:

The Ice Hellions lost because of experience. They had fresh troops and had the best chance they would ever get at taking on an IS clan.

The Ice Hellions lost because of their own incomptence when the failed to get proper intelligence on their enemy, then spread thin across multiple worlds and then their Khan lost her mind (The Wars of Reaving). As I said, the Ice Hellions were just clowns.

Luca M Pryde, on 07 January 2016 - 02:41 AM, said:

The wars of Reaving haven't been documented properly yet. There is only that sourcebook, sarna and maybe a small ebook. Please reference what you know about them.

As far I know from what I read the Steel Vipers invaded and won and then the Steel Vipers got annihilated. I don't know the details and they are sketchy anyway. Also some secret society then came and got annihilated as well.

But all IS clans got evicted from the clan home worlds. Considering they are very far away from the main battles happening it was probably a blessing in disguise. Having no unit in the clan home worlds does not mean they don't turn up to the grand council. Although I am not sure if they are allowed in anymore.

"haven't been documented properly yet."?

I can hardly believe that you are serious (sadly, you are)

There is more than 250 pages long sourcebook dedicated to nothing else than the Wars of Reaving. It describes all sides of that conflict, their forces, their intentions. There are personal profiles of various protagonists of the Wars of Reaving.

The book includes entries for new OmniMechs and equipment used during the Wars of Reaving.

On top of that you have the Wars of Reaving Supplemental that provides us with almost 100 pages of additional details.

Luca M Pryde, on 07 January 2016 - 02:41 AM, said:

The clan forces invading Coventry were mostly green.

As with your previous claim about IS House regulars, this claim of yours is incorrect too.

One half of the invading Jade Falcon force were Veteran- and Regular-rated Clan units. (Operational Turning Points: Falcon Incursion)

Luca M Pryde, on 07 January 2016 - 02:41 AM, said:

Yet still were able to give experienced mercenary units such as the Wolf Dragoons and the Eridani Light Horse a run for their money. Eventually they had to turn to guerrilla warfare. That is a major strategic win. Mercenary units tend to be the most elite units in the IS.

With your very small knowledge of BattleTech canon, you don't know that the situation on Coventry wasn't as simple as you think. There were three solid mercenary units (one regiment of WD, Waco Rangers and one regiment of ELH) and one usable regular unit (10th Skye Rangers). The remaining three IS units were green and they were militias or something very close.(Operational Turning Points: Falcon Incursion)

And they faced 10 Clusters of Jade Falcons.

The Jade Falcons didn't manage to destroy them, but in the end the Jade Falcons survived only because the Inner Sphere forces let them go and return to their OZ.

Luca M Pryde, on 07 January 2016 - 02:41 AM, said:

Clan green troops = IS veteran troops thanks to superior technology and great military strategy by their leaders.

Unfortunately, you are wrong again. Essentially, Clan Green MechWarrior is as good as IS Regular MechWarrior. (BattleTech Master Rules)

Luca M Pryde, on 07 January 2016 - 02:41 AM, said:

Anyhow, this is all opinionated at the end of the day. Can't believe I wrote so much.

Well, you are telling us your opinions. I am quoting what BattleTech canon actually says.

[Luca M Pryde]

You're just quoting source book rules for the board game. I get my info from the novels, games, some sourcebooks and cards. Sarna attempts to provide an unbiased and simple view of the source books, era reports, novels and everything else. I guess depending on how it is written and the angle you take is the way you understand it.

Ah just remembered, Marthe Pryde made an informal deal with Vlad in the novel freebirth. She slept with him too lol.

I haven't got time to take this further but I know there are plenty of old folk that play this game that are biased towards inner sphere. When I said strongest I didn't mean in size. Jade falcon won more battles than ghost bear and wolf. The cost of being in many battles is size.

I haven't read much of the sourcebooks but I bet your money they would differ from the novels.

In the card game she kicks arse. One of the best pilots by far. Best clan pilot and possibly Inner Sphere too.

Edited by Luca M Pryde, 08 January 2016 - 12:15 AM.

[Barantor]

Kell - he was so awesome he couldn't even handle it and put himself out of the running so other pilots could catch up.

[TheArisen]

Barantor, on 07 January 2016 - 10:37 PM, said:

Kell - he was so awesome he couldn't even handle it and put himself out of the running so other pilots could catch up.

Obviously you mean Morgan Kell, there are several notable Kells throughout the lore.

Currently, my top 3 are:
- Black Widow & Kai tied for first
- Morgan Kell at #3

[TheArisen]

Luca M Pryde, on 06 January 2016 - 05:26 AM, said:

Clanners are bred for war. Not enough recognition or respect is given. For example, Joanna killed Natasha Kerensky. Who would of thought a blood namesless star captain could do that.

Joanna killing an 84 year old Natasha isn't overly impressive. That's like beating MJ when he was on the Wizards, it doesn't really count. However I agree there should be more clanners in the runnings.

[Eglar]

TheArisen, on 08 January 2016 - 01:52 AM, said:

Obviously you mean Morgan Kell, there are several notable Kells throughout the lore.

Currently, my top 3 are:
- Black Widow & Kai tied for first
- Morgan Kell at #3

Morgan Kell - Piloting LRM Support Mech since 3010.

[martian]

Luca M Pryde, on 07 January 2016 - 10:29 PM, said:

You're just quoting source book rules for the board game.

Exactly.

I am quoting canon BattleTech materials telling you how the things really were.

I am afraid that "your info" is just your wishful thinking, based on one misunderstood fanpage.

When you say something,the BattleTech canon usually says otherwise.

You came with some random idea that "house warriors are mostly green and ill trained". I simply told you how the things really are and I have contemporary BattleTech source on my side.
You came with the random idea that "The clan forces invading Coventry were mostly green." I simply quoted canon BattleTech canon telling you how the things really were, disproving your claim.
You said that "Clans ... They don't need alliances." and "Clans don't make alliances." I simply quoted canon BattleTech source showing that the opposite is the truth and that some Clan alliences were very powerful.
You said that "The wars of Reaving haven't been documented properly yet." while actually you can read 350 pages about that conflict, plus various additional info from other sources such as TROs, etc.

Etc.

Luca M Pryde, on 07 January 2016 - 10:29 PM, said:

I get my info from the novels, games, some sourcebooks and cards. Sarna attempts to provide an unbiased and simple view of the source books, era reports, novels and everything else. I guess depending on how it is written and the angle you take is the way you understand it.

It's interesting that you have never attempted to quote your canon "sources" to support your extraordinary claims. The books I have quoted are BattleTech canon materials - Sarna is not canon (and you have quoted nothing else).

Luca M Pryde, on 07 January 2016 - 10:29 PM, said:

Ah just remembered, Marthe Pryde made an informal deal with Vlad in the novel freebirth. She slept with him too lol.

Your own words:"Clans don't make alliances."

Luca M Pryde, on 07 January 2016 - 10:29 PM, said:

I haven't got time to take this further but I know there are plenty of old folk that play this game that are biased towards inner sphere.

Unverifiable.

Luca M Pryde, on 07 January 2016 - 10:29 PM, said:

When I said strongest I didn't mean in size. Jade falcon won more battles than ghost bear and wolf. The cost of being in many battles is size.

Semantic fallacy on your side - using the word "strongest" in the sense understood only by you. And hardly verifiable, considering that no two battles are identical.

I will stay with the canon source that says that the Ghost Bears possessed the largest military force among the Clans.

Luca M Pryde, on 07 January 2016 - 10:29 PM, said:

I haven't read much of the sourcebooks but I bet your money they would differ from the novels.

Then you should read canon BattleTech materials, if you wish to discuss canon BattleTech events. Especially if those books are about the problem that the discussion revolves around.

Luca M Pryde, on 07 January 2016 - 10:29 PM, said:

In the card game she kicks arse. One of the best pilots by far. Best clan pilot and possibly Inner Sphere too.

The primary sources defining what is canon in BattleTech universe are products published by FASA, FanPro/WizKids, CGL and Roc. The Card Game was published by WotC.

Edited by martian, 08 January 2016 - 09:21 AM.

[Luca M Pryde]

Whatever. I disect logic from the fluff and read between the lines.You can believe in your board game toys canon bible comstar bias crap inner sphere is the best mumbo jumbo and I will believe in what the people want to believe outside of your world.

See you on the battlefield.

[martian]

Luca M Pryde, on 08 January 2016 - 03:43 PM, said:

Whatever. I disect logic from the fluff and read between the lines.

Perhaps it would have been better to start with what's "on" the lines. For example if some official and CGL-published book written from the omniscient perspective lists all units with their exact ratings, then "reading between the lines" is not necessary.

Luca M Pryde, on 08 January 2016 - 03:43 PM, said:

You can believe in your board game toys

The books I have quoted are valid canon BattleTech sources. They describe what has actually happened in the BattleTech universe. Your notions are not canon, and Sarna, as the only source that you quoted, is not canon.

Luca M Pryde, on 08 January 2016 - 03:43 PM, said:

canon bible comstar bias crap inner sphere is the best mumbo jumbo and I will believe in what the people want to believe outside of your world.

I am sorry, but you are wrong (again).

The canon books, that I have mentioned above, were not written by ComStar. Actually, one of them was written by Kael Pershaw, Clan Jade Falcon officer and Loremaster of the Clans. I don't know if you have heard about him.

Other books - mentioned in this thread - have in-universe authors such as Clan Diamond Shark Loremaster Semi Kalasa or Clan Cloud Cobra Loremaster Julia Danforth.

Luca M Pryde, on 08 January 2016 - 03:43 PM, said:

and I will believe in what the people want to believe outside of your world.

Of course you are free to believe in what you want to believe. Clan Jade Falcon strongest, making no alliances, with green pilots as good as IS Veterans, facing green and ill trained IS House MechWarriors, etc.

I am sure you are going to be happy in your private universe.

Meanwhile, I will read official BattleTech books to know what has happened in the official BattleTech Universe and to see how the storyline progresses.

Luca M Pryde, on 08 January 2016 - 03:43 PM, said:

See you on the battlefield.

Yeah, sure. And do not forget to open some BattleTech book from time to time.

[Brian Davion]

Novels generally trump sourcebooks, as novels are a "depiction of events" while sourcebooks are an IC description of events. that said one has to look at both to have a truely complete picture of things. as for Marthe Pryde, she's a good mechwarrior, you have to be to be the Khan of a Clan. but she's not in the same League as Kai Allard Liao. or Natasha Kerensky. It's worth noting the way Natasha went out, which to this day is contrivorsial, wasn't exactly proof of superior skill, Keresnky effectivly got killed in Johanna's death spasms.

That said, no one aside from Luca (whose name indicates a bias, and yeah I have a Bias, go House Davion) has ever named Marthe Pryde as being one of the top Mechwarriors. she's good yeah, you have to be, to be in her position, but she's done nothing to eistablish her chops as being the best. a recurring theme among the Battletech novels is "yes the clans are a cut above the average. but the Inner Sphere seems to produce the BEST mechwarriors"

Edited by Brian Davion, 09 January 2016 - 02:30 PM.

[martian]

Brian Davion, on 09 January 2016 - 02:27 PM, said:

Novels generally trump sourcebooks

Actually, they don't.

Brian Davion, on 09 January 2016 - 02:27 PM, said:

as for Marthe Pryde, she's a good mechwarrior, you have to be to be the Khan of a Clan. but she's not in the same League as Kai Allard Liao. or Natasha Kerensky.

That said, no one aside from Luca (whose name indicates a bias, and yeah I have a Bias, go House Davion) has ever named Marthe Pryde as being one of the top Mechwarriors. she's good yeah, you have to be, to be in her position, but she's done nothing to eistablish her chops as being the best. a recurring theme among the Battletech novels is "yes the clans are a cut above the average. but the Inner Sphere seems to produce the BEST mechwarriors"

Marthe Pryde was Clan Veteran or Elite MechWarrior, but she wasn't as good as Kai.

Brian Davion, on 09 January 2016 - 02:27 PM, said:

Keresnky effectivly got killed in Johanna's death spasms.

That's not true, considering that Joanna survived the battle and stayed alive well into the Jihad.

[TheArisen]

martian, on 25 October 2015 - 02:42 AM, said:

Of course we have those infamous Mary Sues such as Kai Allard-Liao, Victor Steiner-Davion or Phelan Kell.

But when I am thinking about less mary-sueish characters, there is one MechWarrior I would not really want to face in the battle:

Specter Precentor Omicron Berith

Could you provide a link about him? I can't find him. >.<