205 replies to this topic

[Brian Davion]

"Berith was a part of the bygone era, before all those 'Mech Quirks and Special Abilities were the thing. That means that he doesn't have them while other characters do."

I'm sorry man, I get what you're saying but to see someone from the Jihad be described as a bygone era just makes me snigger (that said wolf and blake lists special abilities and mech quirks for a varity of members within the black widows and the OV, still that's typical for scenerio books dating all the way back to the original ones in the early days) and I suspect are differant from what you mean exactly.

[martian]

Brian Davion, on 15 January 2016 - 03:17 PM, said:

I'm sorry man, I get what you're saying but to see someone from the Jihad be described as a bygone era just makes me snigger

But the last Jihad sourcebook - that concluded the Jihad storyline - was published years ago.

Brian Davion, on 15 January 2016 - 03:17 PM, said:

(that said wolf and blake lists special abilities and mech quirks for a varity of members within the black widows and the OV, still that's typical for scenerio books dating all the way back to the original ones in the early days)

1) Berith has no Special Abilities in the exact meaning of the word. What's in the description was deduced directly from the rules for his implants. Kai was given Marksman, Demoralizer etc. Special Abilities, plus a bag of free additional rules designed to make him better than anyone else. Berith can only dream about such advantages.
2) Starting with TRO:Prototypes (at least that's where I first noticed them being used massively), CGL has been assigning special 'Mech Quirks such as Distracting, Stable, Improved Communications, etc. Unfortunately, Celestials were published in TRO:3075, before the mass use (in TROs) of those Quirks. So newer 'Mechs can use those Quirks to their advantage, while 'Mechs from older TRO simply do not have them. I believe that for example the "Distracting" Quirk would be perfectly suitable for those Celestials.

[TheArisen]

martian, on 15 January 2016 - 10:42 AM, said:

But it is a free skill upgrade. Such Clan Trueborn has no credit on his own that all 'Mech related things are easier for him. Simply because Clan scientists mixed his DNA before has has been born. Seems to me that it's a pretty nice example of a freebie: Starting in a better position than other MechWarriors, without having to lift a finger for it.


Actually, a Clan Trueborn with his Natural Aptitude has a clear advantage. Everything is easier for him. MD implants come with downsides such as possible madness and similar things. This is something what no Clan Trueborn has to be afraid of, because his Natural Aptitude has no such negatives.

I'll concede that Trueborns have an advantage but the fact remains that not all were particularly good pilots whereas anyone that gets cybernetics is instantly better unless your body rejected them or the doctor messed up.

[Brian Davion]

martian, on 15 January 2016 - 10:54 PM, said:

But the last Jihad sourcebook - that concluded the Jihad storyline - was published years ago.


1) Berith has no Special Abilities in the exact meaning of the word. What's in the description was deduced directly from the rules for his implants. Kai was given Marksman, Demoralizer etc. Special Abilities, plus a bag of free additional rules designed to make him better than anyone else. Berith can only dream about such advantages.
2) Starting with TRO:Prototypes (at least that's where I first noticed them being used massively), CGL has been assigning special 'Mech Quirks such as Distracting, Stable, Improved Communications, etc. Unfortunately, Celestials were published in TRO:3075, before the mass use (in TROs) of those Quirks. So newer 'Mechs can use those Quirks to their advantage, while 'Mechs from older TRO simply do not have them. I believe that for example the "Distracting" Quirk would be perfectly suitable for those Celestials.

ohh yeah I know, just I'd been playing for ages when the Jihad hit, so it's one of those "wow has it been that long?"

as for mech quirks, TRO Prototypes is where they started assigning quirks to specific mechs, but they've been an option since strategic operations came out in 2009, they're a rules option and designed with a points value system for balance. with positve and negitve quirks. I'd quirk the archangel as distracting, with a bad reputation (generally the market demand for celestials wasn't as high due to their negitive reputation)

[martian]

Brian Davion, on 16 January 2016 - 02:05 AM, said:

ohh yeah I know, just I'd been playing for ages when the Jihad hit, so it's one of those "wow has it been that long?"

Yeah, at least five or six years.

Brian Davion, on 16 January 2016 - 02:05 AM, said:

as for mech quirks, TRO Prototypes is where they started assigning quirks to specific mechs, but they've been an option since strategic operations came out in 2009, they're a rules option and designed with a points value system for balance. with positve and negitve quirks. I'd quirk the archangel as distracting, with a bad reputation (generally the market demand for celestials wasn't as high due to their negitive reputation)

You can notice that there has been one important change: Sometime between 2009 and 2013 (or so), CGL has abandoned that StratOps rule that all quirks should be balanced.

See that example with the Cyclops in StratOps. +8 points in positive quirks and -8 points in negative quirks. Okay.
But those newest TROs have many 'Mechs with only positive or only negative quirks.

As for the "Guardian", I don't think that Bad Reputation would fit. Celestials have never been on the open market. Personally I would go with two things mentioned in the TRO description: Distracting and Command BattleMech.

[Brian Davion]

I think bad reputation would fit it. one of the TROs (I wanna say 3145) outright says that salvaged celestials where more often scrapped for parts then put into use, and the factories where re-tooled following the Jihad in large part due to the negitive rep etc tied with em. so it'd make sense. the end result would be if you salvaged one during a campaign as a merc unit you couldn't sell it for as much. Command battlemech makes sense though

and the lack of balanced quirks is a bit annoying, Battletech ahs been able to put out, hundreds, if not thousands, of battlemechs over the years that all followed the rules, they should be able to do so with quirks

[martian]

I think that adding too many quirks at all costs is nonsense. I think that the majority of cars, trucks, airplanes etc. does it's job without being especially good or bad.

[TheArisen]

I'm going to toss another name into the arena.
Quinn Kerensky, she popularized the Summoner G config. & A config on the Flamberge.

She's a clan warrior that was willing to use melee attacks. In her trial of position she piloted a Linebacker and defeated an enemy with a kick. She then tore off her opponent's arm and used it to beat up another one of her opponents. She's also noted for taunting her opponents by tapping their mechs in combat.

Because she used "dishonorable tactics" (melee) she was very unpopular with her original clan, clan wolf. The Wolfs underbid (basically gave away) against Jade Falcon. http://www.sarna.net.../Quinn_Kerensky

[Brian Davion]

TheArisen, on 20 January 2016 - 02:31 PM, said:

I'm going to toss another name into the arena.
Quinn Kerensky, she popularized the Summoner G config. & A config on the Flamberge.

She's a clan warrior that was willing to use melee attacks. In her trial of position she piloted a Linebacker and defeated an enemy with a kick. She then tore off her opponent's arm and used it to beat up another one of her opponents. She's also noted for taunting her opponents by tapping their mechs in combat.

Because she used "dishonorable tactics" (melee) she was very unpopular with her original clan, clan wolf. The Wolfs underbid (basically gave away) against Jade Falcon. http://www.sarna.net.../Quinn_Kerensky

she's a notable character but hardly in the running for top mechwarrior. although given the falcons apparently developed a preferance for melee combat over the next century I suppose one could argue she was perhaps one of the more influential ones

[Mayhem McCrea]

Cranston Snord.

Former Wolf's Dragoon.
Won a mercenary outfit in a poker game.
Steiner medal of honor recipient.
Amassed an impressive personal museum in a permanent base on planet Clinton.
Filled said museum by looting planets far and wide for art relics and general cool stuff, on the side while doing mercenary things.
Things in museum included Fabergé eggs, and Land Air Mechs.

Museum/base was built on top of an existing but forgotten Terran Hegemony Castle Brian. Bonus points.

Rhonda Snord's dad.

Best pilot? No, but damn do I like his style.

Edit: Castle Brian, not Castle Brain. Heh. Anyway, the Sarna page on Snord's Irregulars is an interesting read.

Edited by Mayhem McCrea, 21 January 2016 - 02:56 AM.

[martian]

TheArisen, on 20 January 2016 - 02:31 PM, said:

I'm going to toss another name into the arena.
Quinn Kerensky, she popularized the Summoner G config. & A config on the Flamberge.

She's a clan warrior that was willing to use melee attacks. In her trial of position she piloted a Linebacker and defeated an enemy with a kick. She then tore off her opponent's arm and used it to beat up another one of her opponents. She's also noted for taunting her opponents by tapping their mechs in combat.

Because she used "dishonorable tactics" (melee) she was very unpopular with her original clan, clan wolf. The Wolfs underbid (basically gave away) against Jade Falcon. http://www.sarna.net.../Quinn_Kerensky

Her Trial of Position was nothing special and she pilots average 'Mechs. Better pilot than many common Clanners, but there are Clan warriors about as good as her.

[Karl Streiger]

Well afaik nobody said Devlin Stone so far.

Considering Charisma, leadership, strategic and tactical ability's as well as warrior who lead from the front non of the "known best" should be a match.

Maybe Kai can best him 1 on 1, but as in MWO its a kind of kill to choose the right toy. and Stones Atlas II is the right toy.
But can Kai infuriate his comrades or subordinates like Devlin did?

How often did Devlin lead his men right into the mouth of hell and did anybody of them even falter to follow him?

Ok maybe he does not count because he seems to be a artificial person, reading each and every material available about him i can't loose the feeling he is the sum of all the best traits of all characters that ever appeared in books

Edited by Karl Streiger, 22 January 2016 - 12:06 AM.

[martian]

Stone was a good pilot, but there're better ones.

And of course, it's not so difficult to win, if you are piloting 100-ton Atlas II thoroughly upgraded with ClanTech.

[TheArisen]

martian, on 22 January 2016 - 07:09 AM, said:

Stone was a good pilot, but there're better ones.

And of course, it's not so difficult to win, if you are piloting 100-ton Atlas II thoroughly upgraded with ClanTech.

Indeed. Having arguably the strongest mech on the field in most any battle makes someone seem better.

[martian]

TheArisen, on 28 January 2016 - 11:02 PM, said:

Indeed. Having arguably the strongest mech on the field in most any battle makes someone seem better.

Especially when in his most important fight Stone had opponent who 1) was stated as less skilled 2) piloted 'Mech twenty tons lighter than Stone's. The writers really spared no effort to ensure Stone's victory.

[TheArisen]

I've been thinking about this topic in general. I think we are due for a new approach to determining the best.

It was mentioned a few pages back that we had some tacticians being named. I think tactical prowess should be considered. Sometimes it's better to have a tactical genius that makes their comrades better than someone that is individually skilled.

What I'm trying to get at is, we should think about more than just piloting when considering best "mechwarrior" because a mechwarrior is so much more than just piloting and gunnery skills.

How about Grayson Carlye? or we can talk some more about Morgan Kell, etc.

[martian]

One or two names that crossed my mind, especially if talk about both MechWarrior and tactical skills:

• Khan Phelan Kell
  
• Archon Adam Steiner
  
• Precentor Manei Domini Apollyon
  
• General Aleksandr Kerensky, ilKhan Nicholas Kerensky, Khan Natasha Kerensky
  
• General Archer Christifori

[TheArisen]

martian, on 06 February 2016 - 10:36 AM, said:

One or two names that crossed my mind, especially if talk about both MechWarrior and tactical skills:

• Khan Phelan Kell
  
• Archon Adam Steiner
  
• Precentor Manei Domini Apollyon
  
• General Aleksandr Kerensky, ilKhan Nicholas Kerensky, Khan Natasha Kerensky
  
• General Archer Christifori

Well when I say "mechwarrior" I'm thinking of more than just piloting & gunnery, those are parts of what make a great mechwarrior.

I'm sure we could think of mechwarriors that are skilled top notch as far as piloting but shouldn't be giving out orders or tactics.

Basically, who would you say is so good with tactics that it makes up for them not being the absolute best pilot and therefore eligible for "best mechwarrior"

[Karl Streiger]

Its really hard to find a measurement. The novels are highly biased and the opposing forces never try to be a though enemy.

Considering that they were fighting the biased Victor - you should mention Adam Steiner and Linda McDonald - both almost killed or beaten Victor with equal forces.

Christifori, Kell, same for Grayson Charlyle were able to conjure a rabbit out of a hat, always.
Next Alex Kerensky... for sure, a former Gunslinger alone grant him superior skill in the MechCockpit, running a Orion and breaking the defense of Terra.... including the charisma to lead an exodus - makes him one of the best.

His son on the other hand -well a tyrannic brother killing maniac that run an Atlas II?

That keeps us Apollyon, considering that he would have been a ComGuard on Tukayyid (even when we don't know), plus the ability of his 52th Shadow Division to beat any force. (the ******* regulans had to kill a whole planet to beat them) - clearly a good tactician with the spot to deploy his troops for the maximum effect.

[Steve Pryde]

Aidan Pryde. Why? Cause he is headshotting all his opponents. His daughter Diana Pryde is near the same level I think.

Edited by Steve Pryde, 08 February 2016 - 03:28 AM.