205 replies to this topic

[SnagaDance]

I consider Star Lord as the bottom of the barrel scrapers when we're talking about BattleTech novels.

[martian]

Koshirou, on 22 February 2016 - 02:57 AM, said:

The more interesting question: Have you read worse?

SnagaDance, on 22 February 2016 - 09:34 AM, said:

I consider Star Lord as the bottom of the barrel scrapers when we're talking about BattleTech novels.

I wonder if Star Lord can be even considered "novel". It feels more like recording of somebody's convoluted RPG session.

[Der Geisterbaer]

martian said:

As for those murders, that's nothing unusual in noble houses. Chancellor Romano Liao was murdered probably either by her brother, by her sister or by her son

There's actually no question who killed Romano Liao: Her sister Candace Liao personally shot her with a laser in her forehead - leaving a "Caine's mark" - in retalliation for the assasination attempt on herself (ordered by Romano) that killed her husband Justin Xiang Allard. When Sun-Tzu encountered her right after act she warned him of ever trying to order direct assassinations of either her, Kai or other members of her family line after he ascended to the throne or she would return to Sian and personally kill him as well ...

As far as best mechwarriors are concerned - by plot and other sources and partially ignoring the "depricated" Phantom Mech skill of Morgan Kell, Patrick Kell and Yorinaga Kurita:

1. Kai Allard-Liao: Both from novels and tabletop stats he must be considered "the best" as well as an example for a "Mary Sue". The reason I put him above my two No. 2 is the fact that at one point in tabletop history his general bonus apart from being a 0/0 pilot was rolling 3d6 and keeping the result of the better two without further restrictions.

2. Jamie Wolf and Morgan Kell ... IIRC both were stated with -1/0 at some stage but Jaime's secondary skills couldn't counter Kai's die selection bonus. Morgan's Phantom Mech skill on the other hand would normally have gotten him the top spot but there are good reasons why that particular skill was turned into a "myth".

3. Natasha Kerensky. Also a 0/0 pilot but lacked a secondary skill that could equal Kai's die selection bonus.

4. Phelan Patrick Kell. IIRC he topped out as 0/1 and even had a similar bonus to the one Kai had ... but limited to certain mech weight classes. Could fight Kai to a draw in lower weight classes but can't beat either Kai, Morgan, Jaime or Natasha in all weight classes from a pure statisical point.

Further runnerups - with no clear order - are Justin Xiang Allard, Gray Noton, Hanse Davion, Joanna, Vlad and too many others to remember now

[martian]

Der Geisterbaer, on 26 February 2016 - 02:58 AM, said:

There's actually no question who killed Romano Liao: Her sister Candace Liao personally shot her with a laser in her forehead - leaving a "Caine's mark" - in retalliation for the assasination attempt on herself (ordered by Romano) that killed her husband Justin Xiang Allard. When Sun-Tzu encountered her right after act she warned him of ever trying to order direct assassinations of either her, Kai or other members of her family line after he ascended to the throne or she would return to Sian and personally kill him as well ...

Yes, I know that. But officially, the murderer has never been found.

Der Geisterbaer, on 26 February 2016 - 02:58 AM, said:

As far as best mechwarriors are concerned - by plot and other sources and partially ignoring the "depricated" Phantom Mech skill of Morgan Kell, Patrick Kell and Yorinaga Kurita:

1. Kai Allard-Liao: Both from novels and tabletop stats he must be considered "the best" as well as an example for a "Mary Sue". The reason I put him above my two No. 2 is the fact that at one point in tabletop history his general bonus apart from being a 0/0 pilot was rolling 3d6 and keeping the result of the better two without further restrictions.

2. Jamie Wolf and Morgan Kell ... IIRC both were stated with -1/0 at some stage but Jaime's secondary skills couldn't counter Kai's die selection bonus. Morgan's Phantom Mech skill on the other hand would normally have gotten him the top spot but there are good reasons why that particular skill was turned into a "myth".

3. Natasha Kerensky. Also a 0/0 pilot but lacked a secondary skill that could equal Kai's die selection bonus.

4. Phelan Patrick Kell. IIRC he topped out as 0/1 and even had a similar bonus to the one Kai had ... but limited to certain mech weight classes. Could fight Kai to a draw in lower weight classes but can't beat either Kai, Morgan, Jaime or Natasha in all weight classes from a pure statisical point.

Further runnerups - with no clear order - are Justin Xiang Allard, Gray Noton, Hanse Davion, Joanna, Vlad and too many others to remember now

What is your source for those stats?

[Der Geisterbaer]

martian said:

Yes, I know that. But officially, the murderer has never been found.

I find it a bit besides the point to take on an in fiction perspective of historians in a discussion that is led from an out of fiction perspective ...

martian said:

What is your source for those stats?

The source currently would be "my personal recollection of many now out if print BT <edit>-and Mechwarrior RPG</edit> rule, source and campaign books that are collecting dust somewhere in my cellar ... and in addition to their respective portrayal within the novels, which also happen to collect dust somewhere else in my cellar".

That's the reason some of my comments had the destinct IIRC addition.

And no, I can't be bothered to look those things up in order to give you exact publication names and pages. That's just not worth the time considering the highly subjective nature of ranking fictional persons that served as plot devices even when mentioned in non novel material.

Edited by Der Geisterbaer, 26 February 2016 - 06:33 AM.

[TheArisen]

Der Geisterbaer, on 26 February 2016 - 06:29 AM, said:

I find it a bit besides the point to take on an in fiction perspective of historians in a discussion that is led from an out of fiction perspective ...



The source currently would be &quot;my personal recollection of many now out if print BT &lt;edit&gt;-and Mechwarrior RPG&lt;/edit&gt; rule, source and campaign books that are collecting dust somewhere in my cellar ... and in addition to their respective portrayal within the novels, which also happen to collect dust somewhere else in my cellar&quot;.

That's the reason some of my comments had the destinct IIRC addition.

And no, I can't be bothered to look those things up in order to give you exact publication names and pages. That's just not worth the time considering the highly subjective nature of ranking fictional persons that served as plot devices even when mentioned in non novel material.

That last paragraph is the second reason I could never take "Mary sue" complaints seriously, the first being the numerous examples of craziness in RL history.

[martian]

Colonel Hanni Schmitt.

[TheArisen]

martian, on 02 March 2016 - 01:09 PM, said:

Colonel Hanni Schmitt.

Nice one, sadly we only got the one battle to sample from. 8 mechs defeating all those enemies only to get nuked.

[martian]

TheArisen, on 02 March 2016 - 04:29 PM, said:

Nice one, sadly we only got the one battle to sample from. 8 mechs defeating all those enemies only to get nuked.

Originally I thought that I would add her offsprings too, but I decided not to, since they failed in the politicial arena horribly, even though they were good MechWarriors personally.

Edited by martian, 02 March 2016 - 11:55 PM.

[TheArisen]

martian, on 02 March 2016 - 11:51 PM, said:

Originally I thought that I would add her offsprings too, but I decided not to, since they failed in the politicial arena horribly, even though they were good MechWarriors personally.

Indeed, I read about her daughter Coleen, first Khan of the Blood Spirits.

Political failings don't exclude anyone from the discussion for me because we're talking about military skills/accomplishments & leadership.

[martian]

TheArisen, on 03 March 2016 - 12:27 AM, said:

Indeed, I read about her daughter Coleen, first Khan of the Blood Spirits.

Political failings don't exclude anyone from the discussion for me because we're talking about military skills/accomplishments & leadership.

Among the Clans, military skills and political accomplishments are united in one person and both are equally important. Both are two facets of leadership - various Trials are often both military and political matter.

[Der Geisterbaer]

TheArisen said:

That last paragraph is the second reason I could never take "Mary sue" complaints seriously, the first being the numerous examples of craziness in RL history.

Well, unless you believe in a higher entity that sort of "writes" our history as we live through it, the significant difference is that your real life examples of successful "craziness" are indeed random occurrences and no deliberately created plot devices by an author.

A "Mary Sue" - albeit its more that bad connotation of wishful thinking and self-inclusion of the author - isn't actually a bad thing per se. Overall it's just a plot device that - at least in some cases - tries to replicate real life oddities. It just holds the risk of taking it too far.

Kai Allard Liao is a Mary Sue in that sense ... but he certainly isn't an extreme case and doesn't create such abroad and somewhat intense dislike when compared to fictional characters like Wesley Crusher

[TheArisen]

Der Geisterbaer, on 03 March 2016 - 04:40 AM, said:

Well, unless you believe in a higher entity that sort of &quot;writes&quot; our history as we live through it, the significant difference is that your real life examples of successful &quot;craziness&quot; are indeed random occurrences and no deliberately created plot devices by an author.

A &quot;Mary Sue&quot; - albeit its more that bad connotation of wishful thinking and self-inclusion of the author - isn't actually a bad thing per se. Overall it's just a plot device that - at least in some cases - tries to replicate real life oddities. It just holds the risk of taking it too far.

Kai Allard Liao is a Mary Sue in that sense ... but he certainly isn't an extreme case and doesn't create such abroad and somewhat intense dislike when compared to fictional characters like Wesley Crusher

I'm just big on history and history is replete with ppl that accomplished something we'd normally say is impossible.

For example, Napoleon's early to mid career he seemingly could not make a mistake in war. (Then he tried to invade Russia).

I know Mary Sues exist, I'm just not bothered quite as much by them, especially if a character has a history of getting out of trouble.

[Aleksandr Sergeyevich Kerensky]

My vote is for kai allard liao!

[VirtualSmitty]

Thomas Hogarth
Gray Norton
Terry Ford

[TheArisen]

Precentor Martial Jarcaddy, on 03 March 2016 - 09:17 AM, said:

Thomas Hogarth
Gray Norton
Terry Ford

We've talked about Norton a bit, mind telling us about Hogarth & Ford?

[martian]

TheArisen, on 06 March 2016 - 11:22 PM, said:

We've talked about Norton a bit, mind telling us about Hogarth & Ford?

Hogarth is feeble-minded Lyran general. Effectively, he is Jar-Jar Binks of Battletech - do you remember that scene when Jar-Jar is hopping around with blaster attached to his leg and and firing and he destroys enemy droids this way? So Hogarth's character destroying enemy 'Mechs has been considered considered to be "comical" by writers, and annoying idiot by fans.

That kind of repeated joke that is forced on you over and over again.

He started as one-off joke and was funny. Unfortunately, CGL has decided that Hogarth is so magnificently comical character that they have to insert him (or his descendants) in every other book.

As for Terry Ford, the only important he has ever done was when he misrepaired his 'Mech's gyroscope and the 'Mech faceplanted and crushed its cockpit (and killed Ford).

[TheArisen]

martian, on 07 March 2016 - 09:29 AM, said:

Hogarth is feeble-minded Lyran general. Effectively, he is Jar-Jar Binks of Battletech - do you remember that scene when Jar-Jar is hopping around with blaster attached to his leg and and firing and he destroys enemy droids this way? So Hogarth's character destroying enemy 'Mechs has been considered considered to be &quot;comical&quot; by writers, and annoying idiot by fans.

That kind of repeated joke that is forced on you over and over again.

He started as one-off joke and was funny. Unfortunately, CGL has decided that Hogarth is so magnificently comical character that they have to insert him (or his descendants) in every other book.

As for Terry Ford, the only important he has ever done was when he misrepaired his 'Mech's gyroscope and the 'Mech faceplanted and crushed its cockpit (and killed Ford).

Well... That's less than inspiring...

[TheArisen]

Here's a new, but related, discussion. Let's pick a top 5 best non Mary sueish mechwarriors.

For anyone that doesn't understand, these characters should have achievements or skills that are believable, not magic or some other "because the writer said so". The achievements should be consistent with other achievements or apparent skills.

[SnagaDance]

TheArisen, on 13 March 2016 - 01:24 AM, said:

Here's a new, but related, discussion. Let's pick a top 5 best non Mary sueish mechwarriors.

For anyone that doesn't understand, these characters should have achievements or skills that are believable, not magic or some other "because the writer said so". The achievements should be consistent with other achievements or apparent skills.

Excellent. I forward Aris Sung!