205 replies to this topic

[Karl Streiger]

capital plot weapons (CPWs) don't count

[martian]

I have one good candidate: Colonel Wolfgang Hansen

[martian]

Marack Drock, on 08 February 2016 - 12:26 PM, said:

Vladimir Ward... just saying he was an absolutely superb tactician. Even if we can't agree on his level as a mechwarrior we can all agree he was one hell of a tactician. He managed to bring Clan Wolf back, defeated a Khan, proved they used disohonorable tactics to kill Ulric, and also managed to keep Clan Wolf alive through the Jihad and Wars of Reaving, and all because he saved Wolf they are now returning to conquer in the Inner Sphere. So... yeah. Vlad Ward.

Fortunately for him, he died "before" his Clan Wolf has stooped so low that now the Clan is being lead by incestuous progeny of Hanse Davion's children. So sad ...

[TheArisen]

martian, on 08 February 2016 - 12:48 PM, said:

Fortunately for him, he died "before" his Clan Wolf has stooped so low that now the Clan is being lead by incestuous progeny of Hanse Davion's children. So sad ...

Ohh thats a burn on Wolf.

[martian]

Marack Drock, on 08 February 2016 - 06:00 PM, said:

Better than the fact that that same wolf has claims to the Federated Commonwealth throne... Just saying Victor and Katherine/Katrina's child so... that makes him an heir to the throne. So that makes both the Inner Sphere and Clan Wolf guilty.

He can't be a heir to the Federated Commonwealth throne because that Commonwealth was dissolved many decades ago. And as far as I know, he didn't press such claim.

Marack Drock, on 08 February 2016 - 06:00 PM, said:

also better than having an entire war over the fact that people defended Katherine and thought she was a good leader.

Would you believe that some people defended Victor Davion and thought he was a good leader?

Marack Drock, on 08 February 2016 - 06:00 PM, said:

Also better than a 250 year long war the equated to "I am better than you! I rule the galaxy!" "Hey don't shove me! I am better!" (repeat 4 more times). Basically the moral of this story is that.... they all have ****** politics.

War is the common state of the Inner Sphere. We are playing BattleTech, not PeaceTech.

Marack Drock, on 08 February 2016 - 06:00 PM, said:

At least Clan Wolf is doing something productive with their time. Instead of warring with their neighbors because.... HPG blackout, and reasons. Anyways sidetracked.

What has been Clan Wolf doing in the Dark Age if not fighting its neighbours (i.e. the Lyrans, the Jade Falcons and the Republic, etc.), as everyone else?

Marack Drock, on 08 February 2016 - 06:00 PM, said:

Vladimir is still a great leader. And even after he died Clan Wolf is still on its way to glory, as it is doing a substantial amount of damage to the Inner Sphere. So I'd say his work paid off.

1) Under his leadership, his Clan Wolf has been Abjured, i.e. declared to be no longer a Clan.
2) Under his leadership, Clan Wolf has been kicked from the Clan Homeworlds. Add to this that it means the loss of all Clan Wolf Homeworlds holdings, factories and enclaves, and of course the loss of all Clan Wolf members present in Homeworlds. Plus the loss of Wolf military units stationed there.
3) The goal of the Clans and the glory is not to do "a substantial amount of damage to the Inner Sphere."

[martian]

Marack Drock, on 09 February 2016 - 03:03 PM, said:

1. Incorrect. That was under Ulric Kerensky

No. Ulric Kerensky died in 3057. Vladimir Ward's Clan Wolf was Abjured by the Grand Coucil in 3071, 14 years after Ulric's death.

Marack Drock, on 09 February 2016 - 03:03 PM, said:

2. Incorrect. That was again because of Ulric and because Phelan took half the Clan with him when he pussyfooted away.

See above.

Marack Drock, on 09 February 2016 - 03:03 PM, said:

3. That is if the Inner Sphere would cooperate. If they fight you have no choice but to fight back hard.

I must repeat that the goal of the Clans is not to do "a substantial amount of damage to the Inner Sphere." Do you even know what the goal of the Clans is? Do you know why they have come to the Inner Sphere? Their intent was very specific and definitely it was not to enedeavor on rampage of destruction.

Marack Drock, on 08 February 2016 - 06:00 PM, said:

Better than the fact that that same wolf has claims to the Federated Commonwealth throne... Just saying Victor and Katherine/Katrina's child so... that makes him an heir to the throne.

Marack Drock, on 09 February 2016 - 03:03 PM, said:

Next! He has pressed his role as heir to both the Lyran and Davion throwns as he is the child of Victor and Katrina.

Surely you can quote some canon sources supporting those claims regarding being the heir of the Federated Commonwealth, Davion throne, etc.

Because all what he actually did was this: "Alaric proclaimed himself the rightful Archon of the Commonwealth, though his words carried little weight beyond the Empire borders."

Marack Drock, on 09 February 2016 - 03:03 PM, said:

Next! Victor Davion is much different from Katrina. 1. He didn't murder his mother, 2. he didn't try to murder his sibling to gain the thrown of the commonwealth, 3. wasn't a *****, 4. didn't institute mass murders on planets to blame it on the enemy etc etc etc. I could go on but Victor was a leader that made logical sense to back.

You missed a detail: In mid-3050s Victor became the ruler of the Federated Commonwealth, the most powerful IS nation since the Star League. A decade later, his Federated Commonwealth was broken beyond repair, with its mighty AFFC gutted during the Civil War ...

So much for this Victor. Effectively, he destroyed his own state.

As for those murders, that's nothing unusual in noble houses. Chancellor Romano Liao was murdered probably either by her brother, by her sister or by her son, Captain-General Janos Marik too (by his nephew), Chancellor Tormax Liao murdered almost certainly by his son, etc.

Marack Drock, on 09 February 2016 - 03:03 PM, said:

Next! Clan Wolf was ATTACKED by Jade Falcon first. The Lyrans were also their enemies and always were. Whereas the Inner Sphere on several occasions were allies, and yet... never ever act like allies and continue to use weapons of mass destruction on each other to murder each other. Just saying... Clans never had people like Word of Blake. That is all Inner Sphere right there. So during the Dark Age they are... continuing a war that started in 3048, and defending themselves from the Falcons. Still better than the Inner Sphere fighting each other because their own people are wiping out communications, destroying planets, and wiping out mass populace for nothing coherent in the end.

Perhaps if you could formulate your thoughts more coherently.

York, Colleen system, Tanite Worlds, New Kent, the Annihilation of the Wolverines - really, the Clans have always had the same kind of people like the Word of Blake.

Marack Drock, on 09 February 2016 - 03:03 PM, said:

Anyways this is not about politics. This is about warriors and tacticians. Vlad Ward is definitely on that list of the best IMO. And if it comes to it so is Alaric Wolf too for his brilliant strategies as well.

As I mentioned above, being tossed from Clan Homeworlds is a serious dent in Vlad Ward's reputation.

As for Alaric Steiner's brilliant strategies, could you name or describe some of them?

[Karl Streiger]

Marack Drock, on 10 February 2016 - 01:37 PM, said:

Victor is not responsible for his SISTER ******* up his entire Commonwealth by creating civil war, committing mass genocide, and trying to hunt him down. He essentially kept Katrina from taking control of the Commonwealth, where she would have done nothing but held a tyrannical rule over everything. There is no logical reason to support Katrina. She murdered her own mother, attempted to murder her brother, killed millions upon millions of innocent people in mass killings, and blamed it all on Victor even though all he did was try and keep the Commonwealth together. Katrina destroyed the Commonwealth.

No he is not responsible for his sister but he is responsible for his doing.
What is the first rule of a leader of a multi star system federation - to lead those planets not the war.


This was his major mistake - fighting the war on its own. He should have learned from his uncle Ian. Or even from his father.
A prince should fight when the successor is known. Kathrine was the legal successor of him. So poor Vici jumped right after those kitty cats to bolster his ego instead of listening to his barons and people.
HE leaved on his own.

I don't even need to mention: the double joshua - a stupid move, and Kathrine did right because its was the Lyran part of the FC that had the wider border towards the FWL.

I don't even mention the plot with Kurita.... hey look Draconis March people - those snakes terrorized you for the last hundred of years - but you know i will **** this daughter and create little children and then we have again a Federated Combine...how does this sound?

Again so after he come back from the war - well his soldiers loved him (because he did the right thing, for a Champion, or a General - but not for a leader)

But know he see that his sister have done what was his task - to lead the realm not to lead the war.
But did he say, thank you sister you have done right - but now step aside? No he didn't he did just run and hide and playing gardener. WTF?

But his friends in power did enpower him again to lead one of the bigger armys of human history - its obvious that he is not able to hold any political appointment. A great general maybe but thats it.

And he screwed up again. He resign to rule and what he did in 3062 was nothing else but a military revolt. Considering the genocide - you tend to exaggerate, like you did with WoB.

To say WoB killed billions (and they did, the Third Transfer did not happen as it was supposed to be but still the Domnie had hope in humanity, to gather as one and strike at the common enemy) And WoB did not sterilized any planet, like the Regulans. They didn't droped strategic nukes in a already beaten city like the Kanrei.

[TheArisen]

Karl Streiger, on 11 February 2016 - 12:54 AM, said:

No he is not responsible for his sister but he is responsible for his doing.
What is the first rule of a leader of a multi star system federation - to lead those planets not the war.


This was his major mistake - fighting the war on its own. He should have learned from his uncle Ian. Or even from his father.
A prince should fight when the successor is known. Kathrine was the legal successor of him. So poor Vici jumped right after those kitty cats to bolster his ego instead of listening to his barons and people.
HE leaved on his own.

I don't even need to mention: the double joshua - a stupid move, and Kathrine did right because its was the Lyran part of the FC that had the wider border towards the FWL.

I don't even mention the plot with Kurita.... hey look Draconis March people - those snakes terrorized you for the last hundred of years - but you know i will **** this daughter and create little children and then we have again a Federated Combine...how does this sound?

Again so after he come back from the war - well his soldiers loved him (because he did the right thing, for a Champion, or a General - but not for a leader)

But know he see that his sister have done what was his task - to lead the realm not to lead the war.
But did he say, thank you sister you have done right - but now step aside? No he didn't he did just run and hide and playing gardener. WTF?

But his friends in power did enpower him again to lead one of the bigger armys of human history - its obvious that he is not able to hold any political appointment. A great general maybe but thats it.

And he screwed up again. He resign to rule and what he did in 3062 was nothing else but a military revolt. Considering the genocide - you tend to exaggerate, like you did with WoB.

To say WoB killed billions (and they did, the Third Transfer did not happen as it was supposed to be but still the Domnie had hope in humanity, to gather as one and strike at the common enemy) And WoB did not sterilized any planet, like the Regulans. They didn't droped strategic nukes in a already beaten city like the Kanrei.

There's one problem as it pertains to this thread. You're all focused on politics & how he ran his nation but this thread is about how good someone is in combat personally & as a military leader.

[Karl Streiger]

TheArisen, on 11 February 2016 - 02:13 AM, said:

There's one problem as it pertains to this thread. You're all focused on politics & how he ran his nation but this thread is about how good someone is in combat personally & as a military leader.

ok so victor was a okayish jockey (seriously - a DireWolf B!)
a good gerneral with some charisma
and thats it

[Figure 11]

Gotta be Nelson Geist.

[martian]

Marack Drock, on 10 February 2016 - 01:37 PM, said:

Okay first off-

3071- Wars of Reaving where Clans were abjured based on their participation in the Invasion of the Inner Sphere. This only involved Home Clans and any Clan that directly was involved in the invasion was not a home Clan.
Funnily enough EVERY SINGLE Invading Clan that participated in ANY way in the invasion of the Inner Sphere was not a Home Clan anymore. So that includes: Jade Falcon, Wolf, Nova Cats, Steel Viper (they made it back in some how), Diamond Shark, Ghost Bear, Smoke Jaguar, etc. Then we also have the fact that abjuration from the Home Clans continued to the point only: Cloud Cobra, Coyote, Star Adder, and Stone Lion remained as Home Clans. Next, Clan Wolf was not abjured. Clan Wolf was NEVER a Home Clan and thus was NEVER abjured. The Home Clans were those who never ever took part in the Invasion. Wolf did. Wolf was NOT a home Clan. Wolf was NEVER abjured because you can't abjure something not in the category. For your reference-
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Home_Clans

By your logic there are only 4 Clans anyways. Sorry but Wolf has always been a Clan, was never abjured, and always will be Clan. The only Clans abjured are on that list.

It really doesn't matter if you repeat four times that Clan Wolf was not abjured:
"Next, Clan Wolf was not abjured.“
"Clan Wolf was NEVER a Home Clan and thus was NEVER abjured.“
"Wolf was NEVER abjured because you can't abjure something not in the category.“
"Wolf has always been a Clan, was never abjured, and always will be Clan.“

The reality is different from your wishes:
"On 15 April [3071] the Grand Council Abjured the Wolves.“ (Wars of Reaving, p.66)

Marack Drock, on 10 February 2016 - 01:37 PM, said:

Next:

As the son of Katrina and Victor by Monarchical rules (because they are a monarchy), Alaric is both the heir to the Lyran and Davion "throwns" as he is both Steiner and Davion and a child of both rulers (and the only child of Katrina if I recall).

Your made-up „Monarchical rules“ have no weight in BattleTech universe. I can even repeat for you what people in the Inner Sphere think about that Alaric's Archonship:
"Alaric proclaimed himself the rightful Archon of the Commonwealth, though his words carried little weight beyond the Empire borders." (Field Manual: 3145, p.18)

By the way, I am still waiting for some proof for your claims that "He has pressed his role as heir to both the Lyran and Davion throwns" and that „has claims to the Federated Commonwealth throne".

Marack Drock, on 10 February 2016 - 01:37 PM, said:

Next:

Victor is not responsible for his SISTER ******* up his entire Commonwealth by creating civil war, committing mass genocide, and trying to hunt him down. He essentially kept Katrina from taking control of the Commonwealth, where she would have done nothing but held a tyrannical rule over everything. There is no logical reason to support Katrina. She murdered her own mother, attempted to murder her brother, killed millions upon millions of innocent people in mass killings, and blamed it all on Victor even though all he did was try and keep the Commonwealth together. Katrina destroyed the Commonwealth.

Seriously? Are you trying to tell us that Victor as the Archon-Prince of the Federated Commonwealth was not responsible for what happened in his own nation? That scheming Katherine Steiner-Davion ran the Lyran half and that incompetent Yvonne Steiner-Davion was installed as Regent of the FedSuns half? Who else than the supreme ruler of the Federated Commonwealth - i.e. Victor - was responsible? But he did nothing with it and let Katherine rule the Lyran territory. (FedCom Civil War, p.15)

And of course, let's not forget Victor's pointless scheming that seriously pissed off Captain-General Thomas Marik and triggered the joint FWL-Capellan invasion - Operation Guerrero. The result was the loss of many FedCom worlds and split of the Federated Commonwealth. And of course, Victor's inactivity cemented Katherine's personal power and she declared the Lyran Alliance. (Field Manual: Lyran Alliance, p.13)

Marack Drock, on 10 February 2016 - 01:37 PM, said:

Also yeah murder is common in ALL of the Liao families. That is what happens when you have a dictatorship and practice slavery. Murder is common. Mass GENOCIDE is not though.

For your information, Hanse Davion's attack against the Capellan Confederation left 100,000,000 people dead and 600,000,000 injured. (NAIS Military Atlas: Fourth Succession War, vol.2).

I don't know: Does it count when it's done by the Davions?

Marack Drock, on 10 February 2016 - 01:37 PM, said:

And frankly in case you didn't notice 90% of the people who assassinate their predecessors are complete scum when they come to rule.

Alaric Wolf murdered his own mother when he came to rule.

By your own definition, he is complete scum. LOL
(or do you count Steiner-Davion family in those 10% where the murder of your own mother is okay?)

Marack Drock, on 10 February 2016 - 01:37 PM, said:

Next!:

Um yeah... I don't remember when the Clans literally rendered whole planets uninhabitable. Please enlighten me.

I already did in my previous post and named some planets. But no problem, I can repeat it for you.

For example, York is now experiencing nuclear winter. (Wars of Reaving, p.105)

Marack Drock, on 10 February 2016 - 01:37 PM, said:

I don't remember when the Clans annihilated an entire planet's populace either.

They killed every single person on every planet of the Tanis system - I mentioned that system in my previous post. (Wars of Reaving, p.144)

Marack Drock, on 10 February 2016 - 01:37 PM, said:

Much of Clan Wolverine was absorbed and according to many sources many of the innocent population were NOT killed but sterilized.

I am sure that made them happy. Anyway, the fate of the Wolverines is not clear becauser there are conflicting sources. Officially, they were Annihilated.

And of course, usually the Blakists didn't kill every single person they met.

Marack Drock, on 10 February 2016 - 01:37 PM, said:

Finally:

Clan Wolf was tossed from the Clan homeworlds when they essentially lost the Trial of Refusal and the Clan ceased to exist until Vlad Ward recreated it.

Clan Wolf was not tossed from the Homeworlds. Its OZ (and probably Homeworlds) remnants were reformed as Clan Jade Wolf. (The Falcon and the Wolf, p.42)

Marack Drock, on 10 February 2016 - 01:37 PM, said:

As for Alaric's brilliance: His surrender to Anastasia was a tactical move on his part, so that he could learn her weaknesses and thus easily defeat her later. He conquered a planet within days from the Republic, while out gunned and out manned. He also then escaped from Anastasia's reinforcements before she could even get him.

Her performance is not consistent.The same Anastasia Kerensky had that mad idea of attacking Terra with her group. That Kerensky failed on Northwind too. (Era Digest: Dark Age, p.8)

Marack Drock, on 10 February 2016 - 01:37 PM, said:

The Clan Wolf invasion of the Republic was completely designed and planned by Alaric and so was the Lyran/Wolf invasion of the Free World's League as well. Because of this Clan Wolf took the planets Helm, and Gannett.

The Wolf industrial base developed for decades was left behind in their original OZ, together with the majority of Wolf non-Warrior castes. They simply threw them over the board. Of course, what the Wolves left behind, others happily absorbed. The result is that a significant part of Wolf Touman are Lyran concscripts in vehicles and similar units now.

Plus, that stopped invasion actually acted as incentive for the reunification of the new Free Worlds League. So he actually created a new unified enemy instead separated provinces as they were before. (Era Report:3145, p.53)

Marack Drock, on 10 February 2016 - 01:37 PM, said:

He also becomes Khan in 3145 of the Wolf Empire.

Khans come and go.

Marack Drock, on 10 February 2016 - 01:37 PM, said:

Here is also a map with Clan Wolf at 3130.
And it looks to me like they have made it all the way back to the Clan homeworlds again... so yeah.

LOL

What are you talking about? That map does not show the Homeworlds and it contains no info regarding the Homeworlds ...

Marack Drock, on 10 February 2016 - 01:37 PM, said:

I'd say under Alaric and Vlad Ward Clan Wolf managed to flourish once again. Notice btw how in 3130 Clan Wolf is stilled called a CLAN too.

Yes, because it's IS-created map, and the IS is still not quite sure what exactly happened in the Homeworlds. (Era Report: 3145, p.17)

[Karl Streiger]

I start to believe that i own somebody a beer when i made it somehow to make a short trip to Prague.

Cheers

[TheArisen]

Figure 11, on 11 February 2016 - 06:09 AM, said:

Gotta be Nelson Geist.

Mind telling us an him?

[martian]

TheArisen, on 12 February 2016 - 08:55 PM, said:

Mind telling us an him?

In his first serious action he alphastriked enemy light 'Mech in his 45-ton Phoenix Hawk. Then he outmaneuvered enemy BattleMaster. That's not too difficult, considering that his Phoenix Hawk had movement profile 6/9/6, while the slow BattleMaster ploughed 4/6. After they excavated that 'Mech from avalanche, he took it as his own.

Then he served as Lyran MechWarrior, until the Clanners defeated him and sent him to retirement.

When he retired, he met the Clanners again and was promptly shot out of his 'Mech. Fortunately for him, enemy Clan commander fell in love with him, made him her servant, ordered him to destroy other Lyran 'Mechs - which he did for her repeatedly, and she even forced him to **** her. Repeatedly.

Really, it reads as bad fan-fiction. Considering, that it was written by Stackpole ...

The book ends when Geist kills his mistress in self-defence and thus saves allied unit outside the bunker.

Honestly, I have read better books.

Edited by martian, 13 February 2016 - 12:11 AM.

[TheArisen]

martian, on 13 February 2016 - 12:09 AM, said:

In his first serious action he alphastriked enemy light 'Mech in his 45-ton Phoenix Hawk. Then he outmaneuvered enemy BattleMaster. That's not too difficult, considering that his Phoenix Hawk had movement profile 6/9/6, while the slow BattleMaster ploughed 4/6. After they excavated that 'Mech from avalanche, he took it as his own.

Then he served as Lyran MechWarrior, until the Clanners defeated him and sent him to retirement.

When he retired, he met the Clanners again and was promptly shot out of his 'Mech. Fortunately for him, enemy Clan commander fell in love with him, made him her servant, ordered him to destroy other Lyran 'Mechs - which he did for her repeatedly, and she even forced him to **** her. Repeatedly.

Really, it reads as bad fan-fiction. Considering, that it was written by Stackpole ...

The book ends when Geist kills his mistress in self-defence and thus saves allied unit outside the bunker.

Honestly, I have read better books.

Dang that sounds terrible. Also nothing suggesting him to be special

[Figure 11]

My work here is done!

[martian]

Vic Travers.

[Karl Streiger]

martian, on 19 February 2016 - 10:13 PM, said:

Vic Travers.

[Koshirou]

martian, on 13 February 2016 - 12:09 AM, said:

Honestly, I have read better books.

The more interesting question: Have you read worse?

[Karl Streiger]

Koshirou, on 22 February 2016 - 02:57 AM, said:

The more interesting question: Have you read worse?

of course he did, every BattleTech book including a green paarot is a candidate for the worst battleTech book