205 replies to this topic

[TheArisen]

El Bandito, on 26 October 2015 - 09:52 PM, said:

If we take account of everything, including the ability to command regiment-sized forces on multiple worlds, then I think Adam Steiner is a damn good candidate for the best there is. He even had Victor on the ropes, if not for the meddling Com Guard deserters. Adam turned out to be a damn good ruler too, and had fought personally in a battlemech until he reached eighty years of age.
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Adam_Steiner

Marthe Pryde is also a good candidate, from the Clan side.

Hmmm Adam sounds pretty awesome but I didn't see anything about piloting.

[martian]

TheArisen, on 26 October 2015 - 10:55 PM, said:

Hmmm Adam sounds pretty awesome but I didn't see anything about piloting.

He is probably most famous as the Axman pilot, but he piloted the Awesome and other 'Mechs too.

[El Bandito]

TheArisen, on 26 October 2015 - 10:55 PM, said:

Hmmm Adam sounds pretty awesome but I didn't see anything about piloting.

Read the novel "Storms of Fate", where Adam almost killed Victor with a Gauss round. And in the novel "Operation Audacity", you can read more about his piloting skills. He pilots one of the most meta mechs, the Thunder Hawk.

Edited by El Bandito, 27 October 2015 - 01:53 AM.

[TheArisen]

El Bandito, on 27 October 2015 - 01:50 AM, said:

Read the novel "Storms of Fate", where Adam almost killed Victor with a Gauss round. And in the novel "Operation Audacity", you can read more about his piloting skills. He pilots one of the most meta mechs, the Thunder Hawk.

Hmm idk where I'll find those books but I'll look for em.

I have to agree that Victor isn't in the running for best of the best, not even top 5.

How about Archer Christifori?

[El Bandito]

TheArisen, on 27 October 2015 - 04:53 AM, said:

Hmm idk where I'll find those books but I'll look for em.

I have to agree that Victor isn't in the running for best of the best, not even top 5.

How about Archer Christifori?

Archer Christifori is a good warrior and a leader, but not really among the best. He is one of the best unconventional combat specialist though, thanks to his experience in Thorin and Muphrid. Funny enough, Archer works with Adam in "Operation Audacity", against Clan Jade Falcon.

Edited by El Bandito, 27 October 2015 - 08:05 AM.

[El Bandito]

Marack Drock, on 27 October 2015 - 07:27 AM, said:

Stuff.

There was so much bias, exaggeration, and misinformation in your post that it make me simply shake my head. Whatever man, whatever...

[VATER]

I say Kai Allard-Liao. He is a monster in IS-Tech. With Clan Tech? Invincible.

[Leone]

Phelan Wolf single-handedly took Gunzburg during the fifth wave of operation revival.

I can think of no greater feat accomplished by a single mechwarrior then the unconditional surrender of an entire world given by a personal enemy.

~Leone.

Edited by Leone, 27 October 2015 - 09:04 AM.

[Catra Lanis]

martian, on 25 October 2015 - 03:39 AM, said:

Reading canon rules regarding Kai Allard-Liao and laughing: Officially Kai's enemies can barely hit him, they lose all bonuses that could help them (such as Targeting computers or pulse lasers), etc.



You mean, a few months. The next few decades he used 100-ton Clan Daishi.

martian, on 25 October 2015 - 03:39 AM, said:

Reading canon rules regarding Kai Allard-Liao and laughing: Officially Kai's enemies can barely hit him, they lose all bonuses that could help them (such as Targeting computers or pulse lasers), etc.



You mean, a few months. The next few decades he used 100-ton Clan Daishi.

Doesn't matter, anyone who can survive more than 10 minutes in that piece of **** belongs in the hall of fame.

[Bregor Edain]

Marack Drock, on 27 October 2015 - 07:27 AM, said:

BlackWidow fought until she was in her 100's.


Adam Steiner lost on many occasions to Clansmen. Not to mention he was not able to hold Somerset and only won it because of Malthus (it is canon and in the 1st Somerset Strikers Compendium). Then we have to consider Adam was dunce, and actually was loyal to Katrina Steiner during the FedCom Civil war...... just saying. Then he lost to the Clans on Newtown Square in the FedCom Civil war (Jade Falcon launched a small invasion). Khan Martha Pryde had him running like a baby again after killing Sharon Bryan. Adam almost lost if a pro-Victor unit hadn't come to stall the Clan invasion and save his sorry ass.

We also have his stalemate with the Falcons on Black Earth, which was only solved when the Wolf-In-Exiles helped him out. Then he failed on Hot Springs to a Clan cluster that used Inner Sphere tactics against them.

Adam's career was nothing but failure. He was not a brilliant leader, but he was a warrior. Not to mention he favored his son Andrew so much that his other son Frederick changed his last name because he had so little to do with him. Sorry but Adam is not that impressive. Just a few small victories vs 80% failure is not a good record. He was constantly bailed out by strategists and warriors better than him. He was only good as an Archon and even then he was more naive than Victor.

Pryde family definitely wins over him.... hell, Victor Davion wins over him...... which is sad. Victor defeated Lincoln Osis if you all remember......... and Osis was a Khan of the highest caliber IMO in terms of combat. Victor was generally victorious and was a better strategist than Adam ever was. One victory is not enough to say that Adam was better. His career says otherwise.

Victor however lost out to Clans more than he won IMO, until he got help from the other Houses. Sun Tzu-Liao was much better than him. Hell Theodore Kruita was better than Victor IMO and much better than Adam.

Natasha Kerensky died at the age of 84 as such she did not pilot while in the hundreds.

Commenting per paragraph that I cba to comment on
First paragraph: 1)There is not a whole lot of shame in his losses versus the Clans during the invasion because they where simply better equipt and bred for warfare and no one knew what they where up against.
2)He was loyal to Katherine because there was no hard evidence that she commited crimes and as such he followed his chain of command.
3) He did not lose on newtown because he was not in charge, General Sharon Bryan was, and she defended in a way that played right into the hands of her enemies. He did the best he could even though he knew that the strategy was flawed.

Fourth paragraph
Victor beat Lincoln but the match up was skewed and the kill was basically bondsref at the point of his death. As for Victor being more victorious, he had a lot of help and plot armor.

[TheSilken]

Black Widow over Kai for she has more experience but mainly because she is able to understand her foes and fights her opponents off the field of battle in addition to inside a mech. Kai is too dependent upon his mood to be the best because although he has great feats of heroism he would be easy for the Black Widow to manipulate mentally and then defeat in combat.

[Bregor Edain]

Marack Drock, on 27 October 2015 - 12:08 PM, said:

I thought for sure someone told me she was 100. Oh well.

I know he wasn't in control on Newtown... well until Bryan died and he still buggered off. I even said he fled after she died. You obviously didn't read that.

Also losing to Clans regularly is still.... unacceptable.

Oh I read that you said he fled and you are still wrong. Being outnumbered by superior forces on an unimportant world (Newtown) and saving what is left of your forces is enough to warrant a retreat. Pulling forces back from Melissia was also a good call and it took outside advice to have him withdraw from there too due to overwhelming Clan forces incomming. Also, losing to the Clans happend all the time for the entire IS, hell even their wins are generally costly and some borderline phyrric victories (like Huntress).

Anyway Adam Steiner does not belong in a list of top mechwarriors.

P.S. You also listed Lincoln Osis in your top pilot list but he was an Elemental. I could not believe you listed Sun-Tzu Laio, hardly a renowned pilot and he even had the nerve to eject during the Trial on Outreach after turning it in a grand melee.

[TheArisen]

Tbh, I think you're both being biased. Saying Victor is subpar is hyperbolic. He could be in the top 20% but obviously not top ten best ever. I'm just saying you're being overly critical. As for Adam, no one beat the Clans regularly in invasion. Losing to a force that is more skilled, better equipped & sometimes outnumbers you isn't shameful. George Washington got the crap kicked out of him under similar circumstances and he's considered one of the best ever.

Adam Steiner had his moments but idk if was the best tactician ever. He was at a disadvantage a lot of the time though.

Aidan lost his trial because he got cheap shoted. Also we need to consider these ppl at there PEAK.

Last thing, this isn't about leaders of nations but leaders of warriors & individual skills.

[TheArisen]

Marack Drock, on 27 October 2015 - 07:19 PM, said:

George Washington was a horrible general, and is not considered one of the best. He is over-hyped by American literature trying to make him sound bigger than it was. England pretty much just packed up, and left. They would have handed his ass to him if they had actually tried. Not to mention George Washington's tactics were horrible, his training for his men was terrible, and he lost pretty much every battle ever until foreign intervention saved him. Frankly if it wasn't for the French, von Steuben, and Benedict Arnold we would have failed.... and Arnold we ended up treating like crap and losing one of our best Generals. Washington was terrible. He was a good politician, but one of the worst military commanders. Not a good example, especially considering England let us win.

And...... even at his peak.... Adam was still pretty much terrible.

Next, if Clan warriors are so much better, why the heck are we even mentioning Inner Sphere pilots? Seriously at their heights, Black Widow, Aidan Pryde, Martha Pryde, Vlad Ward, Phelan Kell, Lincoln Osis (you did just say warriors and skill, and Osis was damn good), Joanna, Nicholas Kerensky, Natalie Breen (she was really good in my personal opinion), Ulric Kerensky (he was a badass and only lost because Chistu cheated like a ****), etc are pretty much better than any Inner Sphere warrior.

About Washington, tell that to the British war museum. The British army was beyond doubt, the best in the world at the time and they certainly tried to win. The fact Washington kept his army alive and achieved overall victory against a clearly superior foe is a testament to how good he was.

But getting back to the topic, my point was simply that the IS are like the Continentals & the Clans are like the British. You have to take into account how good the soldiers are, how well equipped they are and how experienced they are.

I wasn't talking about just Adam, that was for all the considered characters.

And in general, clan warriors are better but that doesn't mean the IS can't have contenders for best of all time.

[Karl Streiger]

Marack Drock, on 27 October 2015 - 11:14 PM, said:

Basically we say: If this Inner Sphere pilot managed to beat this Clan pilot one on one in a fair fight, and then that Clan pilot beat this other pilot, then we can probably safely say that this Inner Sphere pilot may be better than the Clan pilots. Or vice versa. Then we have to scale them. Basically we look at who had the best win to lose ratio and whoever did, is the number one best WARRIOR. Best Strategist would be who won the most battles and could be done the same way. Best Military leader would also be done the same way. Maybe we could change Strategist to MechCommander though. Although I don't know any well known MechCommanders.

given this approach the answer is simple -

Quote

The battle came to a standstill to witness the greatest MechWarrior in the entire galaxy fall.

although his leading perfomance wasn't that good in the end:

Quote

By this point, Kai’s aberrant mental state had regressed to
its lowest point. Already his troops had become afraid of him for
not only his frightening battlefield performance but his blatant
disregard for the safety of anyone near him. Burton had provided
a tempering influence on Kai’s rage, but after Burton was killed, Kai
talked only of killing as many Capellans as he could

Edited by Karl Streiger, 28 October 2015 - 12:43 AM.

[TheArisen]

Phellan Kell is technically an IS guy who got thrown in with the sharks and then became a better shark than the sharks (Clanners).

We've named a lot of invasion/pre-invasion pilots, anyone from the Jihad or Dark Age?

[martian]

TheArisen, on 28 October 2015 - 12:59 PM, said:

We've named a lot of invasion/pre-invasion pilots, anyone from the Jihad or Dark Age?

Already named:
http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__4785828

[Nathan Foxbane]

Marack Drock, on 28 October 2015 - 10:06 AM, said:

Kai was decent. But he doesn't hold a finger to Vlad Ward..... just saying. Vlad won on a constant state and was.... a badass his entire life. On review, Kai I think could come in third though IMO. Frankly Kai was pretty awesome. He was a Solaris champion, and great warrior.... although like you said towards the end of his career he turned into a crazy person and then died.... he lost his prowess at the end of his life. Actually the Republic era I'd say is where his downfall really became apparent. Start losing a lot then.

Kai shot Vlad out of his Timber Wolf using a Stormcrow during the Great Refusal. In a battle of Prime versus B, Vlad held the distinct advantage until Kai closed to the optimum range for his UAC/20. Vlad may have been the best the Crusader part of Clan Wolf had to offer and one of the best in the Clans as a whole, but it does not mitigate other factors. Really, it is hard to say because all pilots peaked at different times, few ever actually faced each other in a manner which determined who was the best, and most had different tech levels at the peak of their careers. Last one should be a big red flag, hard to compare a Succession Wars era AS7-D to Dire Wolf or Thunder Hawk, or even newer assaults. You would have to stuff all the best pilots in the same machines and even then you would get inaccurate results because some pilots could handle anything while others were specialists in certain 'Mechs and would not pilot other 'Mechs nearly as well. Metrics and baseline benchmarks must be established before any sort of comparison can be made. Also, some of the best pilots had vastly different skill sets and some had abilities which may have been better suited to dueling and others to unit (of any size) tactics. This also skews the measurement of who was/is the best because different scenarios would grant advantages to different pilots by skill sets, let alone the 'Mech of choice.

[TheArisen]

Marack Drock, on 28 October 2015 - 08:35 PM, said:

True. Very true. Kai was great... I still think had it been Vlad with an UAC20 the story would be a little different though.... just saying, not much you can do when you are in optimum range for an UAC20 and it is Kai Allard Liao as your rival. Had Vlad and Kai been in the exact same variants I wonder what the outcome would have been. Probably really really close.

This whole topic needs guidelines for the best warriors, strategists, etc because as you said each had a different skill set.

Okay then, let's have some more specific columns.

Who is the best light mech pilot? (My vote is Phellan Kell)
Who is the best medium mech pilot?
Best heavy mech pilot?
Best assault mech pilot?
Best small unit tactician?
Best big unit tactician?
Best dualist?
Best "brawler"?
Best "sniper"?

Edited by TheArisen, 28 October 2015 - 11:27 PM.

[Karl Streiger]

OK i have the answer: DEATH

in other terms:
just look in notable pilots of you TRO of an era

so for example best assault mech pilot (including tactican because the assault is mostly the commander)
3025 era: Giles "The Banger" barnes and his Awesome vs J.T Elliot in his Stalker

Heavys - 3025era Widow vs Bounty Hunter

Medium - (well count the Quickdraw as medium and I'm done IV-Four Ivy Upsalom - otherwise mabye Isoroku Kurita

Light - Captain Bono Duganmare - (Commander in a Commando - Deaths Knell) otherwise Melinda Charlyle best Panther Pilot ever