116 replies to this topic

[Herr Vorragend]

Lasers are light. Light has no minimum range. This is physically absurd.

You need energy for lasers, your mechs fusion reactor. That's the only factor. You could link your energy output to the equipped engine (size?) (like all the other weapons, too). Your laser range is limited when being critically hit etc.
But no, minimum range for lasers is not logical

Edited by Herr Vorragend, 22 August 2016 - 12:48 PM.

[Kirkland Langue]

Andi Nagasia, on 22 August 2016 - 12:29 PM, said:

zero damage, no just decreasing damage, a light would need to get to 1 to do 0 damage,
currently a light cant get closer than 10m to another mech, so 1 damage would always be dealt,
thats the idea anyway, its not prefect but at the time i think it was a good idea,

My mistake, I was thinking the minimum range meant 0 damage.
That said, Anything that acts as additional damage mitigation for Lights is something I'm going to oppose. Whether that mitigation is 100% or 50% or even 1%.

Light mechs are already ridiculous in their damage mitigation.

[Bud Crue]

Ok, so, this is a necro thread and all from PTS2. But, given the page and a half of responses from today, forgive me but could someone explain just what is wrong with lasers atm? Why do we need them nerfed or changed in the manner suggested?
I mean they seem okay to me, but I am admittedly terrible at this game, so perhaps I just don't understand.

[C E Dwyer]

Ex Atlas Overlord, on 20 October 2015 - 09:45 PM, said:

He disagrees clearly.... seeing as how it's the entire premise of his suggestion.

And yet here you come adding literally nothing to the conversation, but to state your own opinion that in no way counters anything he brought up OR moves the conversation forward.

You're the problem.

On the topic, I love the idea of lasers have minimum range.

It gives all the close range weapons (SRMs mostly) a reason to exist.

He did, he said that the way we have things now has enough ways of balancing it, he's correct.

A far better way of balancing not just energy weapons but all weapons is to lower the heat threshold, and increase dissipation, the game then naturally turns into controlled bursts of damage, and makes big high damage alpha's a liability to the shooter, due to shut down and heat damage.

No need for more code, no need for an extra mechanic, just altering a few numbers.

Edited by Cathy, 22 August 2016 - 03:32 PM.

[LordNothing]

Herr Vorragend, on 22 August 2016 - 12:43 PM, said:

Lasers are light. Light has no minimum range. This is physically absurd.

You need energy for lasers, your mechs fusion reactor. That's the only factor. You could link your energy output to the equipped engine (size?) (like all the other weapons, too). Your laser range is limited when being critically hit etc.
But no, minimum range for lasers is not logical

photons have no minimum range. however they diverge to the point where your metal melting weapon just becomes an over glorified flashlight. you need optics to focus them and to put the focal point where you want it. these optics are calibrated for the weapon's intended range, and would also be adjustable within a set range determined by weapon type. its sort of like a telephoto lens, its going to go far no matter what you do, but you can still adjust the focus to get a good shot. what you cant do is get a close in shot because thats outside of the range the optics are designed for. stick on a range finder and control loop, and you dont have to do anything the laser is automatically focused where its pointed. i very much doubt a laser system from the future is going to have fixed focal points. this effectively means the graph on page 1.

id throw in some caveats. all small lasers, mpl (possibly excluding the clan version) and ml would have full damage from the start. these are all your close in weapons and should be full damage within that envelope. the rest would have both an inital damage percentage and a minimum optimal range where damage becomes 100%. er lasers would have narrower optimal ranges and lower initial damage. pulse would probibly have wider optimal ranges and a higher initial damage. std lasers would be in the middle.

Edited by LordNothing, 22 August 2016 - 05:11 PM.

[Dee Eight]

The way to balance lasers is to correct the heat/damagerange values back to BT numbers, and throw out these ridiculous PGI values that are out of whack.

In Battletech,inner sphere lasers... small laser is 1 heat for 3 damage at up to 90 meters, medium laser is 3 heat for 5 damage up to 270 meters, large laser is 8 heat for 8 damage up to 450 meters, ER large laser is 12 heat for 8 damage up to 570 meters, small pulse is 2 heat for 3 damage up to 180 meters, medium pulse is 4 heat for 6 damage up to 180 meters and large pulse is 10 heat for 9 damage up to 300 meters.

Clan lasers are ERSL 2 heat for 5 damage up to 180 meters, SPL is 2 heat for 3 damage up to 180 meters, ERML is 5 heat for 7 damage up to 450 meters, MPL is 4 heat for 7 damage up to 360 meters, ERLL is 12 heat for 10 damage up to 750 meters, and LPL is 10 heat for 10 damage up to 600 meters.

At no point do large lasers deal more damage than heat, regular ER or pulse, clan or inner sphere. At best, its equal for the inner sphere large laser and the clan large pulse lasers. Small pulse lasers do NOT do more damage than regular small lasers. Medium lasers are not supposed to be as hot as they are in PGI's universe.

[InspectorG]

meh necro...

Edited by InspectorG, 22 August 2016 - 08:36 PM.

[Andi Nagasia]

Bud Crue, on 22 August 2016 - 03:26 PM, said:

Ok, so, this is a necro thread and all from PTS2. But, given the page and a half of responses from today, forgive me but could someone explain just what is wrong with lasers atm? Why do we need them nerfed or changed in the manner suggested?
I mean they seem okay to me, but I am admittedly terrible at this game, so perhaps I just don't understand.

ya, have no idea why it was Necro'ed but ya,....

whats wrong with lasers right now, well,... nothing,
as i said i think lasers are fine right now, perhaps they need some love,
personally id take all Clan Lasers down -1Damage -1Heat and reduce the Duration, but they are ok now,
this topic was created before the Great Lasers nerfs that normalized Lasers into their Current Balanced State,

Dee Eight, on 22 August 2016 - 08:21 PM, said:

The way to balance lasers is to correct the heat/damagerange values back to BT numbers, and throw out these ridiculous PGI values that are out of whack.

In Battletech,inner sphere lasers... small laser is 1 heat for 3 damage at up to 90 meters, medium laser is 3 heat for 5 damage up to 270 meters, large laser is 8 heat for 8 damage up to 450 meters, ER large laser is 12 heat for 8 damage up to 570 meters, small pulse is 2 heat for 3 damage up to 180 meters, medium pulse is 4 heat for 6 damage up to 180 meters and large pulse is 10 heat for 9 damage up to 300 meters.

Clan lasers are ERSL 2 heat for 5 damage up to 180 meters, SPL is 2 heat for 3 damage up to 180 meters, ERML is 5 heat for 7 damage up to 450 meters, MPL is 4 heat for 7 damage up to 360 meters, ERLL is 12 heat for 10 damage up to 750 meters, and LPL is 10 heat for 10 damage up to 600 meters.

At no point do large lasers deal more damage than heat, regular ER or pulse, clan or inner sphere. At best, its equal for the inner sphere large laser and the clan large pulse lasers. Small pulse lasers do NOT do more damage than regular small lasers. Medium lasers are not supposed to be as hot as they are in PGI's universe.

i think lasers need some reworking, they are good now,
bust as i said above, i think they should be changed abit,

from my Topic on IS to Clan Laser Balance,
(Mwo Laser Balance! Are Lasers Already Balanced?)

Andi Nagasia, on 14 September 2015 - 04:58 PM, said:

First IS-SL vs C-ER-SL,
(1Damage = 0.20Duration)(1Heat = 70m Range)
Table,........Weapon,...Damage,...Duration,...Heat,... Range,...Cooldown,...
Balanced, IS-SL,............3,.............0.60,........2,.........140m,........2.00s,...
Balanced, C-ER-SL,.......4,.............0.80,........3,.........210m,........2.50s,...
Possible,.. IS-ER-SL,......3,.............0.60,........3,.........210m,........2.00s,...
(IS= Duration -0.15 Range +5m Cooldown -0.25)(Clan= Duration -0.20 Range +10m Cooldown +0.25)

Then IS-SPL vs C-SPL,
(1Damage = 0.10Duration)(1Heat = 55m Range)
Table,........Weapon,...Damage,...Duration,...Heat,... Range,...Cooldown,...
Balanced, IS-SPL,............4,...........0.40,..........2,.......110m,........2.00s,...
Balanced, C-SPL,.............5,...........0.50,..........3,.......165m,.......2.50s,...
(IS= Duration -0.10 Cooldown -0.25)(Clan= Duration -0.25 Cooldown +0.25)


Next IS-ML vs C-ER-ML,
(1Damage = 0.20Duration)(1Heat = 70m Range)
Table,........Weapon,...Damage,...Duration,...Heat,... Range,...Cooldown,...
Balanced, IS-ML,............5,.............1.00,........4,.........280m,........2.50s,...
Balanced, C-ER-ML,.......6,.............1.20,........6,.........420m,........3.00s,...
Possible,.. IS-ER-ML,......5,.............1.00,........6,.........420m,........2.50s,...
(IS= Duration +0.10 Range +10m Cooldown -0.50)(Clan= Duration +0.05 Range +15m)

Then IS-MPL vs C-MPL,
(1Damage = 0.10Duration)(1Heat = 55m Range)
Table,........Weapon,...Damage,...Duration,...Heat,... Range,...Cooldown,...
Balanced, IS-MPL,..........6,............0.60,.........4,........220m,........2.50s,...
Balanced, C-MPL,...........7,............0.70,.........6,........330m,........3.00s,...
(IS= Cooldown -0.50)(Clan= Duration -0.15)


Finally IS-LL vs C-ER-LL,
(1Damage = 0.15Duration)(1Heat = 75m Range)
Table,........Weapon,...Damage,...Duration,...Heat,... Range,...Cooldown,...
Balanced, IS-LL..............9,.............1.35,........7,.........525m,........3.00s,...
Balanced, IS-ER-LL,.......9,.............1.35,........9,.........675m,........3.00s,...
Balanced, C-ER-LL,......10,.............1.50,........9,.........675m,........3.50s,...
(IS(LL)= Duration +0.35 Range +75m Cooldown -0.25)
(IS= Duration +0.10 Heat +1 Cooldown -0.25)(Clan= Heat -1 Range -65m Cooldown +0.25)

Then IS-LPL vs C-LPL,
(1Damage = 0.10Duration)(1Heat = 55m Range)
Table,........Weapon,...Damage,...Duration,...Heat,... Range,...Cooldown,...
Balanced, IS-LPL.............11,...........1.10,.........7,........385m,........3.00s,...
Balanced, C-LPL,............12,...........1.20,........10,.......550m,........3.50s,...
(IS= Duration +0.43 Range +20m Cooldown -0.25)(Clan= Duration +0.08 Range -50m Cooldown +0.25)

Edit-

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 22 August 2016 - 10:00 PM.

[PhoenixFire55]

@OP .... It is a very interesting concept, but not for this game.

[adamts01]

NO

1 medium laser isn't a problem, 3 isn't a problem, even 6 isn't really a problem. It's 6 mediums plus 2 Large Pulse all hitting in the exact same place that's the problem. This is yet another bad solution that penalizes boats and absolutely gimps mechs with limited energy hardpoints that don't have the tonnage to run ballistics. Cone of fire is the way to go, just like every other shooter out there and real life. You reach heat capacity, run, jump, fire everything at once.... you lose accuracy. You slow down, lower your heat, fire a reasonable amount of weapons at once, everything is pinpoint.

[DrxAbstract]

Andi Nagasia, on 20 October 2015 - 08:07 PM, said:

many have said it, and many are on both sides,
but their usually isnt a Table or Graph, so i made one!


Vertical Numbers are Damage, Horizontal Numbers is Range,

-Notes-
this is Just a Basic Idea about How Laser Min Range could work,
Some Have Expressed perhaps they should do Half Damage at 0m not 0,
that could also work as this Topic is just to Discuss Laser Min Range Viability,

-Poll Topic-
(Laser Minimum Range Concept!(With Picture) Poll!)


Thoughts, Comments, Concerns?
Thanks,

Edit- Link

BattleTech Physics Fluff: The Beam Focusing Lenses are not fixed. They adjust based on distance to target to produce the most efficient beam concentration for maximum effectiveness and are even part of the aiming mechanism.

That said, minimum ranges on all lasers but Smalls only pushes people further into the 400+ meter peek-n-poke style that's already too prevalent.

[Greyhart]

adamts01, on 23 August 2016 - 02:59 AM, said:

NO

1 medium laser isn't a problem, 3 isn't a problem, even 6 isn't really a problem. It's 6 mediums plus 2 Large Pulse all hitting in the exact same place that's the problem. This is yet another bad solution that penalizes boats and absolutely gimps mechs with limited energy hardpoints that don't have the tonnage to run ballistics. Cone of fire is the way to go, just like every other shooter out there and real life. You reach heat capacity, run, jump, fire everything at once.... you lose accuracy. You slow down, lower your heat, fire a reasonable amount of weapons at once, everything is pinpoint.

The new ED idea reminded me of this min range idea. As ED would mean that there is no need to do anything but boat one type of laser.

there are a couple of reasonable ideas to solve this, such as much lower heat cap and heat penalties.

The the min range idea addresses a simple advantage of the large lasers. They are effective at all ranges and therefore are simply better than small lasers. I know weight, cool down and heat, but consider they each take one hard point.

Assuming an enemy mech is running straight at you from 1000m at about 95kph (which is about 25 meters per second) that means it would take them approximately 40 seconds to reach you.

If you have a ERLL you can get off 12 shots at 9 damage so do 108 damage (approximately a bit less with damage reduction over optimum)

If you only have a SL you get 5 shots off when within Max range (about 11 sec of firing time) that translates to 15 damage (again not taking account of reduced damage past optimal).

My figures are rough and ready and I am sure someone will pick holes in them. But i think they illustrate why if you have limited energy mounts you fit the biggest laser you can. the example is artificial i know.

with a minimum range or a reduction of damage (i.e. not reaching 0) it might make the choice of weapon more interesting. It might mean that if you want to sit and poke then the other player is inclined to close the distance to reduce your effectiveness.

The idea raises an interesting dynamic I think. A dynamic that is played in in a couple of weapons but if extended could be an interesting and easily understood balancing mechanic.

[adamts01]

Greyhart, on 23 August 2016 - 04:06 AM, said:

The the min range idea addresses a simple advantage of the large lasers. They are effective at all ranges and therefore are simply better than small lasers. I know weight, cool down and heat, but consider they each take one hard point.

I come from light world, where large lasers just aren't a real option. You can fit them on some builds, but your dps is just absurdly low. If any mechs do get quirks that bring Large Laser dps to a usable level, they're quickly labeled as OP (poor little Locust 1V). I get what you're saying though, and on some mediums and most heavies and up, Large Lasers are the way to go. This proposal nerfs the underdogs more than the offenders, as do most ideas geared towards nerfing boats. I really think cone of fire is the way to go. But I'm happy PGI is at least doing something, even if it's not what I wanted, and they're finally using the pts. We'll see. Well, probably not me, I'm waiting for some major gameplay changes to come back. But I'll hear about it on here.

[Greyhart]

Just to bring this back.

I came across this http://panoptesv.com...hRay/Focus.html

the site is interesting but spending time at work reading it seems like a poor idea.

Seems to me that a min range makes some sense on lasers from a focus point of view.

[Andi Nagasia]

(Please note this, One of my Older Topics the Picture is Outdated)
(ill leave it to players to choose if they want me to update this topic with a more Relevant Picture)
(post your thoughts on if you want this Topic Updated)
Edit-

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 17 November 2016 - 07:09 AM.

[Widowmaker1981]

I see what you are trying to do here, but the actual result as far as im concerned would be to remove every single non small class laser from every one of my mechs and replace with ERPPCs/stop using the mech.

Edited by Widowmaker1981, 17 November 2016 - 07:12 AM.

[Greyhart]

Andi Nagasia, on 17 November 2016 - 07:07 AM, said:

(Please note this, One of my Older Topics the Picture is Outdated)
(ill leave it to players to choose if they want me to update this topic with a more Relevant Picture)
(post your thoughts on if you want this Topic Updated)
Edit-

sorry just searched as the bit reminded me of the idea. this was the first relevant one. Figured people didn't want a new topic on the subject of lasers