385 replies to this topic

[Greyhart]

The problem as I understand it (and I believe this is the consensus) is the ability to place a large amount of damage (over 30 points give or take) on to a single part of the opponents mech. This is known as pin point damage.

This problem is mostly evident in lasers as they have no travel time and no other draw backs. However gauss and ballistics also can do high alpha damage.

PGI have tested an idea on lasers being the requirement to lock on to do full damage and adjusting range without lock on. This doesn't address other weapons, but I assume the test was focused on lasers only not balancing weapons overall.

A lot has been written on these forums about solutions to this problem. The main one that appears to have good support is convergence.

Convergence may or may not be workable in the game. It does however appear unlikely to be considered by PGI as it was in the beta and discarded. Therefore I am not including it as an option in the poll because it would likely win and that would not give room for other ideas.

I have therefore tried to put the main ideas that get brought up in the poll (other than convergence)

So please complete the poll and make further suggestions.

[Kjudoon]

The problem is well known. The right solution is controvertial.

Two ways to illuminate this is ask the following questions.

1. Which do you fear more? 60dmg laser alpha or a 60dmg missile alpha? 40dmg AC alpha or 40dmg LBx alpha?

2. Would it be fair to have currently spreading weapons to get convergence and all deal damage to the same spot to balance against the current PP meta?

You quickly learn that the amount of damage is not the problem, it's the application and concentration of it.

That is the problem that must be addressed. Reducing or increasing damage or armor with or without lock will not solve this. Capping damage does not deal with the problem but covers it up with a silly fake mechanic.

However the spreading of damage is done, is less the point. It needs to happen and that means directly confronting the flaw that so many 'elite skilled' and tryhard players who are strongly opposing any change in this manner use as their bread and butter.

So PGI's got a few choices to make and which group to tick off most.

[Greyhart]

Yes I like the spread I also like the idea of using heat as a means of stopping high alpha and slowing down damage overall.

Convergence is a way to spread damage as well.

[Cataclysm315]

I'm sorry but, if you stand still long enough for me to place a high amount of damage on one spot using lasers then it is YOUR fault. You should torso twist to force me (and others) to spread damage across your mech. Honestly if they start playing with the core mechanics of the game like this its going to kill off a lot of their fans as its unnecessary.

And yes this is coming from a person who has only just started using this technique and it does work! Seriously try it

[ILikePeaches]

Cataclysm315, on 22 October 2015 - 11:51 PM, said:

I'm sorry but, if you stand still long enough for me to place a high amount of damage on one spot using lasers then it is YOUR fault. You should torso twist to force me (and others) to spread damage across your mech. Honestly if they start playing with the core mechanics of the game like this its going to kill off a lot of their fans as its unnecessary.

And yes this is coming from a person who has only just started using this technique and it does work! Seriously try it

Some mechs are so meta you can't torso twist the laser damage. For example a Hunchie 4P, TDR-5SS, and the BL-7-KNT-L just to name a few off the top of my head. Those all can have builds that are pinpoint laser cutters with amazing quirks that cut duration down to almost nothing noticeable. You can surgically take apart other more balanced mechs with ease. This isn't really an issue with missiles and ballistics outside of gauss (but that's expected of gauss and it has plenty of cons to go with it).

Edited by ILikePeaches, 23 October 2015 - 12:07 AM.

[Ronin Starwalker]

The solution is to penalise stacking of the same type of weapon in addition to heat, now they also converge slower.

[Kjudoon]

There is no convergence speed. It is instant. So there is no slower unless you mean torso twist and arm speed. But that isnt convergence.

[dante51]

Honestly I don't understand problem with high alpha. I have different mechs with different builds, some of them high alpha builds. Besides being a part of the lore, it's present nearly at every multiplayer game (from Dota to Counter-Strike). Why do you want to get rid off it?

A lot of good configs (and mechs too) were killed with ghost heat, instead of balancing other weapons and now, the same mistake is happening.

Edited by dante51, 23 October 2015 - 12:36 AM.

[Kjudoon]

Allow me to illustrate the problem. Take a laservomit alpha for 60 points versus an lrm barrage cor the same damage. You fear that laserbarf because you know it will blow off components in one shot. On the other hand that 60lrm blast is going to hurt but probably not rip off a component in one shot let aLone kill if you are fresh. Spread mitigates damage.

Now to reinforce this. Assume paul had a stroke and gave perfect convergence to lrms just like grouped df weapons. Now those 60 lrms all hit the sMe component blowing it off just like the laservomit.

The damage concentrated by single location is what makes ttk too low. It is what makes focus fire deveatating. Just like a magnifying glass on an ant hill. That is convervence and why it MUST MUST MUST be fixed.

[Karl Streiger]

Well heat could fix the "energy alphas"
if heat can't be used: use spread DoT Mechanics example the Clan ACs (i like them much more over the IS ones - simple because of the feel)

Problem: the roll of the harasser - to much heat will prohibit a slasher run (for example if 6 Med Laser can shut you down)
ok there was this idea with multiple energy grids for example for weapon/movement/targeting - if its possible to set priority for movement - while recharging and targeting gets lowest priority such a light can attack - fire once and fade away. - without heat killing his movement.

Question is - are players capable to modify the energy grid on the fly (i know that old X-Wing / TIE Fighter / Wing Commander Veterans can do)

Edited by Karl Streiger, 23 October 2015 - 01:12 AM.

[dante51]

And? The LRMs can get you even without direct contact, their range is bigger, you don't need to aim with them, and a lot of LRMs can be very devastating as-well. You can just up them a bit, remaking their lock system, making them "fire and forget" and voila, they will be used much more frequently.

Yes, heat mechanics must be more advanced - like slower movement, blurring the screen (like g-force in aircraft simulators), some electronic systems failures (switching off the hud on a few seconds and so on). But you know it will be understandable and logical, add a lot of immersion and won't so crazy as that ghost heat, ridiculous "no-lock no damage" stuff or that damage redistribution you are offering.

Edited by dante51, 23 October 2015 - 01:35 AM.

[Kjudoon]

I am talking about damage application. Nothing more. I could have used lbx weapons, streaks or srms with exactly the same issue. Lrms are the most illustrative because they are the ones suffering the most from whine poisoning.

[Greyhart]

the logic of the game dictates that the person that can put the most amount of damage on a single part in the shortest time wins.

this is why large lasers are always better than small. although over time the short will do the same amount of damage or slightly more with less heat the large places all that damage in one shot in one place then you can disengage recover and repeat. a small laser requires you to stay with the target and repeatedly hit the same place over a longer period of time.

therefore the best builds will always be those that can place the large damage in one spot in the shortest time. That goes for all weapons. Of course lasers have no ammo so are generally automatically lighter allowing more of them.

[dante51]

So that what advanced heat mechanics will solve - if you do high heat alpha, all negative effects should work. And while you are under that effects non-alpha player will have huge advantage. That's it. Pretty easy and not complicated, because it has some clearly understandable logic behind it - the higher temperature you have, the worse time your mech and you (pilot) having inside it.

[Loganauer]

Make the second poll multiple choice...also...the solution is doing a few things...


1) Add heat penalties
2) Add cone of fire spread for PPCs and Ballistics at range
3) Modify convergence such that all weapons will only hit the same place if a mech is targeted
4) Modify lasers so that each laser fired in a group, or before a laser is over 50% complete, will extend the duration for the next laser (or all the lasers in the group) by 20%. So if you fire 5 Clan Medium Lasers in one group, with a normal duration of 1.15, then this weapon group would have a 2.30 duration.
5) (ER)PPCs, Autocannons 10/20, and Gauss Rifles cannot be fired in the same weapon group unless quirked, and have a shared global cooldown of 0.25 or 0.5 seconds. The only way to work around this is an alpha strike, but alpha strikes use the same charging mechanic that gauss rifles currently use, and are subject to cone of fire spread unless a targeting computer is installed (with targeting computers being made available to the IS)

Suddenly, all high alpha problems are gone. Ghost heat can be removed, gauss charging can be removed, and PPC speed can be increased.

Edited by Loganauer, 23 October 2015 - 02:16 AM.

[Kjudoon]

Tie damage to ghost heat then with a discount for spreading weapons. The problem is you will see no change in high alpha strikes unless you all but guarantee N overheat kill for more than 40dmg in an alpha. It will not solve the root problem only cover it up.

[Archie4Strings]

The Problems are the quirks of the IS-Mechs! Its not the Laser Weapons!
Its just, that every second IS-Mech is a Hunchback/Thunderbolt/Stalker/Battlemaster/Firestarter Laserboat!

So just kick the quirks out of MWO and everything is fine! (For both clans and IS) Just make a few changes for the really bad designed mechs such as Executioner, Summoner, Nova, maybe a few IS-Mechs too. And thats it!
Here is the example:
I have a hunchback (not yet mastered!) with a heat efficiency from about 1,3 and it never runs really hot. I can shoot my 3 mediumlasers and my ac20 whenever i like.
I also have a summoner (mastered!) with a heat efficiency from 1,31 and i almost have a shutdown in every brawl after 2 alphas.

The difference is, the Hunchback (and all the other IS-Laserboats) have a damn quirk about "Energy Heat Generation -15%"!
You dont find any similar Laserboats among the Clanmechs.
The Stormcrow and the Ebon Jaguar are played as laserboats, too. But they dont have Quirks to reduce the heat generation and they both still have heat problems though!

Btw: There are also light mechs with many lasers, but that is fine, cause energy weapons are kind of light weapons (less tons than ballistics), so it makes sense to me!

And anyway:
Every weapon got its advantages and disadvantages:
For the energy weapon, it is a high damage with an appropriate range and low weight at the cost of burning time and a lot of heat.
For LRMs it is a lot of damage with a huge range and tracking missiles (easy to aim and shoot over hills) as support fire at the cost of "locking up targets", minimum range and a huge weight.
SRMs is a high alpha, low tons and heat at the cost of spread damage (no pinpoint) and a short range,
Ballistics got a high alpha pin point (IS) or spread (clan) with low heat and an appropriate range (from short to long distance) at the cost of a huge weight.

Every weapon has its disadvantages! Also Lasers! But the quirks for heat regeneration are just unbalanced and make a few, but now often played mechs kind of overpowered...

[Karl Streiger]

You are right about the issues with those darn quirks - and they will be a thing of the past.
But the Alpha problem = multiple weapon hit the same spot - is not a question of quirk or not, nor IS or Clan.

Clans can do Alpha as well as IS. Even without quirks a 8 (ER) medium laser build hitting the same spot is not something that should exist at all

Edited by Karl Streiger, 23 October 2015 - 02:53 AM.

[dante51]

Karl Streiger, on 23 October 2015 - 02:50 AM, said:

Even without quirks a 8 (ER) medium laser build hitting the same spot is not something that should exist at all

Why? It just should be fitted into the gameplay - e.g. alpha strike = seme bad consequences. Why would you want to affect gameplay with some weird and illogical limitations?

[Brandarr Gunnarson]

IS can alpha, its true; but its more problematic when it comes to Clans because the reduced weight and increased damage are a double threat of boating more weapons that hurt the enemy more.

That leads into the why of some IS 'Mechs being absurdly Quirked.

My solution is thus:
PART 1) Just about every Clan weapon should run hotter than its IS counterpart. This to compensate for the weight (requires more heatsinks to balance that heat) and their increased range (as a more direct counterweight). Even CAC/CUAC/CLBX

Missiles should increase heat marginally due to the low weight in order to "out-heat" IS versions (the stream fire mechanism they actually balance out damage pretty well, surprisingly, but I don't know how or why they produce more HPS, it should be other way around.)

Gauss needs a special ruleset which I thought out but won't expound here.

PART 2) Similarly, Clan weapons should have greater range. That's the whole "flavor" of Clans: range!

PART3)
As Clan missiles and ballistics have pretty much the same damage values as IS, that's all good. But Clan lasers should be brought in line with IS damage values. Range and weight is good enough.

TT values be damned!!!

Thus I hope IS will have the short range boating game and Clans will have it at range with chain fire!

Couple with dual threshold heat cap: shutdown and meltdown (AKA, suicide) and I think its settled and kept within the current mechanics!