385 replies to this topic

[Hotthedd]

Karl Streiger, on 09 February 2016 - 10:00 AM, said:

So of course when you want to stick to tt values you only have the rof to limit stuff.

Actually there is more than just Rate of Fire. There is RoF combined with damage/heat OVER TEN SECONDS, it is amazing the numbers that could be tweaked and still fit into TT rules.
There is also burn time, burst-fire/FLD, and spread radius. Any of these could be tweaked and still be within the TT/TRO rules.

[Reno Blade]

I probably posted here already somewhere, but lets keep it simple and only change values for the current available system:

• Increase laser beam times for all lasers by x% -> dealing max damage with lasers will be harder without making boats useless.
  
• revert the 3x LL ghost heat cap to 2x LLaser
  
• start Ghost heat on MLaser/MP at 4 instead of 6. -> less efficient to alpha your boat. now shoot 2 volleys instead of one alpha. spreads the alpha damage
  
• reduce er/PPC heat by 10-20%, keep speed and damage as is, and give all PPCs (is/clan) splash damage (50% direct, 50% splashed)
  
• increase Gauss heat to 7+ -> makes it closer to all other ballistics and reduce synergy with lasers (lore also stated that Gauss required so much energy from the engine.... )
  
• and use ghost heat values like AC20 for the Gauss for very hot dual shots OR limiting Gauss to only charge one at a time.
  
• start SRM ghost heat at 2 launchers but also reduce heat on SRM by 1
  
• increase LRM travel speed by 30-50% and increase cooldown by 50-70% -> better to hit, but bad DPS, so it's not used as main weapon only
  
• reduce LRM shake and splash graphic (blinding the target) by 50% -> reduce the frustration of beeing hit by LRM spam

I'm currently running my 2x Gauss, 4x ML XL280 Warhammer and kill 4-8 targets while brawling with the rest of my team without any problem. Even light mechs circling around are easy prey with dual gauss hammer, so ... yes dual gauss can still be very effective if you can mount it.
Why should dual gauss be more effective than any PPC build on a Warhammer (with enough heat sinks)

[Motormouth]

Can I also have a game like this?

This sounds like good fun!

I won't pretend to know what anyone here is talking about... but I followed the link in Koniving's Signature, and man a game like this would be fun to play even if it was the turn based version.

I came from Armored Core: Last Raven, so maneuvering around dps "meta" is normal for me. There were two schools of thought in that game, "Tank it better, kill it faster." or "Evade it better, kill it faster." Depending on whether you were in AC2, AC3, or NX/LR, it was quad legs or middle-weight master race that blended the 2 schools for better or worse.

Out turn the opponent, turn into him. Flank him. Make him go wide, or go wide and make his side bleed. Fly into the air and unload some white hot death in his face. Armored Core was all about positioning and maneuvering, but was exclusively one on one.

This is like moving a Panzer column on freaking steroids!

But I digress... where can I get a game like Koniving's descirbing? Turn-based or not, on my PC (read shite arse laptop)

[Puresin]

heres a thought, add realistic firing to the mechs.


tabletop had a good grasp of this

simply put the larger the weapon, the more it needs to support it inside the mech.

for example:

Raven 3l with 2 er large lasers on ONE side of the mech....ok so what I'm saying is the fact that a 35 tonne mech has 10 tonnes in that little tiny side arm?

so 1/3 of the mechs weight is in one side........ ok So I weigh 150 lbs and they are saying I could carrying 50 lbs on one arm AND run AND target AND fire.........not likely, the mechs would topple.

now, same raven, one large one med laser same arm..... so only 1/5th (roughly) of it's overall weight would be there 6 out of the 35 tonnes.

another thing, adding true recoil effects. firing more than ONE heavy weapon simultaneous should have serious penalties.

example firing 2 ac20's simultaneously should knock your aim seriously off. except for assaults. add PPC's and anything 10 or up. lb10x lb20x ac10 ac20 uac10 uac20. or even knock you over.

but regardless. I would love any of this or any of these ideas. But lets be honest, PGI wants to make this game for EVERYONE so they can get money from everyone. which means that this game is heading straight for the crapper, because the vast majority want to get into a game fire and run, and that's right where pgi is going.

I mean seriously, look at the new map, Polar Highlands, (I hope the idea maker got fired, but he probably got a raise)
seriously a giant white field with a bunch of moguls and, like, what?, 4 or 5 structures.? seriously PGI? did you just get done watching star wars and decide to do hoth?

I hope you are ashamed of that one PGI. I have made better starcraft maps in 1998.

You guys can come up with ideas until you are blue in the face. they aren't going to do it unless it gets them all those COD players. that's all they care about. more players makes more PAYERS. the vast majority of the players don't give a **** about lore or the way the game should work, they wanna be able to put on as many weapons as they choose fire once or twice and get a kill.

oh and as for making the damage values the same for IS and CLAN, get with it. clan is supposed to have higher tech AND run colder, CLAN HAVE BEEN PREPARING FOR WAR FOR CENTURIES. Do you seriously think the inner sphere should/would even come close? The inner sphere are supposed to be political and better at subterfuge. please pull your heads out of your asses. nobody fought wars because everyone had the same stuff.

Oh you have the same gun as me lets shoot each other!


if you wanna bring things into playable. honestly force a certain amount of clanliness.

But seriously if you BRING the CLAN weapons INTO line with IS. PGI would probably lose all of its true battletech/MechWarrior original players. Vive la difference, not lets all have the same thing!

oh but do get rid of his ghost heat ******** so sick of seeing a firestarter with 8 small pulse alphaing 5 or 6 times and not overheating while firing one clan laser will pretty much guarantee a serious heat spike in MOST clan mechs currently.

I'm too tired to write more of how they have screwed this game up. BUT it isn't fun when someone poptarts and fires double acs or ppcs and just floats down to earth like they didn't just do the impossible, cause seriously poptarting should result in instant knockdown.

[Puresin]

Bulls*** Source Mystic. I have watched an arctic cheetah take over 200 pts of damage and not stop. There is definitely a problem with hit reg, and firing mechanics. when a locust can fire a large laser faster than a clan can fire a small pulse, then there is definitely something wrong. Lights are LIGHTS. period. they are supposed to take one or two hits and be dead. the fact that a locust or cheetah can run through a whole team while being pounded and not die. yeah lemme guess you only run lights?

Edited by Puresin, 16 February 2016 - 07:18 AM.

[Dekallis]

I may be new but I really disagree with high damage alphas being a 'problem' Alpha strikes are supposed to be high damage....that's basically the reason to do one. Now they shouldn't be spammable, since normally they're not supposed to be something a mechwarrior uses as their main method of attack, but the nature of the game inevitably led people to find ways to optimize their damage. Even if you did find some effective way to reduce alpha damage you'd then just get people focused on headshotting which takes much less effective damage to net a instant kill(which is what people generally did in MW4 due to much easier to hit cockpits on alot of mechs).

I read a few pages of this and I can't believe no one mentioned armor types....
You'd be better off looking for the answer in the lackluster defensive options, right now defensively your options are standard armor, or ferro fiborous armor, but the inclusion of laser reflective and reactive armors would change the landscape of things around here pretty dramatically.

Laser reflective armor reducing energy weapon damage by 50% being equally effective against ballistics as standard armor and weighing as much as ferro as the cost of ten slots and a vulnerability(say 75% more damage) to explosive(Lrm/srm/arty/airstrike) damage would be a big deal.

Reactive armor being akin to standard armor in performance but reducing explosive weapon damage by 50% at the cost of being slightly heavier than standard would give people some more interesting defensive choices to make in regards to their armor.

Do you go reflective to counter beam spitters and risk running into a SRM brawler? Or a even just some missile boating Lrm users? Or run reactive to counter missiles and be better generally protected when brawling?

Suddenly Missiles become more relevant in general as a counter to reflective armor, But then they're also countered by anyone running reactive armor. and AMS becomes a very real need for reflective armor users to shield against lrms and a fluid meta because suddenly the 'best' weapon is simply whatever the other guys aren't fielding armor counters for.

You suddenly have a lot of importance on building diverse weapon systems into your mech and considering what you might run into, instead of just loading up a bunch of one type of weapon and alpha striking. Those type of mechs would begin to fail as they ran into counter armor types. Suddenly that 50-60 or 70 damage alpha is only 25-30-or 35 damage and they have to work much harder to succeed.

I firmly believe better defense options is the answer here. Not finicky alterations to the way weapon systems work.

[M T]

There is no solution. I think all 'high alpha/pinpoint' whiners have been one shot too many times.

Perhaps you should play Counterstrike and witness how fast you die, not to mention the differences in head hitboxes

[RincewindWizzard]

This is not a problem. Learn to play. Torso twisting, deadside, these terms exist for a reason.

You can easily spread damage from lasers.

Next thread will be ZOMG NERF GAUSS NERF PPC....

Come on....

Edited by RincewindWizzard, 16 February 2016 - 01:06 PM.

[DivineEvil]

RincewindWizzard, on 16 February 2016 - 01:00 PM, said:

This is not a problem. Learn to play. Torso twisting, deadside, these terms exist for a reason.

You can easily spread damage from lasers.

Next thread will be ZOMG NERF GAUSS NERF PPC....

Come on....

The problem with lasers is not accuracy, but the bulk damage volume it can output, hence the thread's title. Torso twisting and deadside is not a solution to just taking too much damage in short period of time, and Pulse lasers, especially with quirks, can migitate even these two. Besides, you can spread laser damage indeed, but ballistic damage is hard not to spread to begin with, due to their projectile nature and leading requirements and resulting convergence offset, and missiles spread naturally without any of your intervention. In the end, torso twisting and deadside are equally valid against most other weapons as well, but Lasers feature alpha-strike PPD potential, that higher DPS of other weapons cannot compensate for.

Nevertheless, power of high-alpha builds is not much of a problem by itself, but the simplicity (convenience) and reliability of their usage indeed is.

Edited by DivineEvil, 19 February 2016 - 01:18 AM.

[PocketAces]

The solution is easy, take out max range, i.e. medium lasers will only do damage up to 270m, quirks and modules will modify this ad that's it. It means AC will be the premier sniping weapon and LRMs the long range weapon.

[Strength Damage Cliff Racer]

While I do understand that there are some problems with laser alpha, I can't stand whine from clanners who expect their actually-one-grade-longer non-pulse lasers to work as if they were pulses. Not gonna happen. Pay double the weight for half the duration or go away.

[Karl Streiger]

Well did anybody did consider that one of the main reasons for reliable alpha strikes is the weight?

PGI did allready limit the advantage of DHS. But afaik its not enough.
Take for example the generic AWS-8Q.
You can have the same cooling with a slightly faster reactor - and still have 8tons remaining. 8tons that can be used for a bigger engine, or weapons.
OK you have problems becasue of the "size" of those DHS - but.... when you take the 275 engine - and mount 21 DHS - of course you have some spare weight... but if you take the reliable config of 4 MPLAS and 3 ER Large Laser - you have a faster Mech, no Ghost Heat, better cooling, more Range and no minimum range.

In all terms this Mech is better - just for 1 Upgrade
You may think hey SL Tech is supposed to be better - yeah right in the TT where you have BV to fix the issue. But somebody thinks that MWO should use tonnage to balance stuff out - and a balance with tonnage means 80tons have to be worth 80tons.

[DivineEvil]

Karl Streiger, on 22 February 2016 - 12:58 AM, said:

Well did anybody did consider that one of the main reasons for reliable alpha strikes is the weight?

No. The main reason for reliable alpha-strikes is heat.

Ballistic weapons are heavy-weight, large, low-heat, ammo dependant, raw DPS weapons.

Missile weapons are mid-weight, mid-size, mid-heat, ammo dependant, raw burst damage weapons.

Energy weapons are light-weight, small, heat-intensive, ammo independant, attrition weapons.

For all means and purposes, MWO represents weapons accurately for their features and flaws, except for one single point - MWO heat system is invalid. Heat capacity is too high, allowing for excessive alpha-strikes, while heat dissipation is too low, which makes continuous fighting with Energy weapons in general, and PPCs in particular, impossible. When lasers are neglected, same heat system failures allow for excessive Ballistic and Missile alpha-strikes just as well, perhaps to a lower degree.

Period.

[Bloodweaver]

DivineEvil, on 23 February 2016 - 06:35 AM, said:

For all means and purposes, MWO represents weapons accurately for their features and flaws, except for one single point - MWO heat system is invalid. Heat capacity is too high, allowing for excessive alpha-strikes, while heat dissipation is too low, which makes continuous fighting with Energy weapons in general, and PPCs in particular, impossible.

Bro you gotta leave that poor nail alone, you outright decapitated it, have mercy!

Only other thing contributing to the alpha-alpha-alpha playstyle is perfect pinpoint accuracy at all time for all (non-spreading) weapons... but that's clearly not changing.

[Reno Blade]

While it is easy to boat stuff and still shoot most of the weapons without melting, it's also way to easy to hit with the majority of your weapons effect.

Remember how easy it was when PPCs were fast or when Gauss had no charge time?
Now that they are in a better place, the easier weapon are Lasers. They were always easy, but the PPCs were just easier (to deliver all damage to one spot).

Do you remember when cERLL had 2 seconds burn time? Many outcries...
Increasing beam time alone would change so much on the battlefield as you would be much more vulnerable to return fire while trying to keep your beam on target.
This is also the reason why you see so many Pulse lasers and most people never touch cERLL at all.

I'm not set for how much more it should be increased, but I'd say roughly 20% for all lasers would be a pretty strong nerf.

Edited by Reno Blade, 23 February 2016 - 11:45 AM.

[Karl Streiger]

DivineEvil, on 23 February 2016 - 06:35 AM, said:

No. The main reason for reliable alpha-strikes is heat.

Of course its heat - but the the weight spared by the simple upgrade from SHS towards DHS also helps as much. Think about the switch from Closed to Open Beta - heat and alpha striking wasn't the big problem in Closed Beta- ok 4PPC 1 Gauss Atlas were possible but also very rare - because you had 1 shot.
But with DHS those Mechs suddenly had the mass to add even more heatsinks and each of those sinks was much better.
~ the firepower and heat robustness of a CB Atlas was possible in a OB Catapult.
Nerfing the assaults because you can't even add enough heatsinks to be worth the additional weight and crits. More weapons are not an option either because of Ghost Heat. So heavys are very efficient simple by the heat mechanics.

They should allow a Mech to have both heatsinks - double is for dissipation, single is for heat cap - and we are done.
Mabye add a dissipation and heat capacity bonus based on size of the Mech.
Same for ES - it should come for a price...not in money but in durability.

[Widowmaker1981]

DivineEvil, on 23 February 2016 - 06:35 AM, said:

No. The main reason for reliable alpha-strikes is heat.

Ballistic weapons are heavy-weight, large, low-heat, ammo dependant, raw DPS weapons.

Missile weapons are mid-weight, mid-size, mid-heat, ammo dependant, raw burst damage weapons.

Energy weapons are light-weight, small, heat-intensive, ammo independant, attrition weapons.

For all means and purposes, MWO represents weapons accurately for their features and flaws, except for one single point - MWO heat system is invalid. Heat capacity is too high, allowing for excessive alpha-strikes, while heat dissipation is too low, which makes continuous fighting with Energy weapons in general, and PPCs in particular, impossible. When lasers are neglected, same heat system failures allow for excessive Ballistic and Missile alpha-strikes just as well, perhaps to a lower degree.

Period.

OK, so lets assume we have a system where the largest laser alpha you can pull off is 20 dmg. is that roughly what you are aiming for?

So, in that world, how can any laser mech compete with a quad UAC5 mech like the mauler? The Mauler now has the same alpha, zero heat generation (basically), massively more DPS, causes severe screenshake. Currently, a laser mech competes by having a larger alpha, allowing it to burst / hide. If you decrease maximum possible energy alphas to the point where they can be equaled by DPS ballistic alphas, you remove any reason to use anything other than DPS ballistics.

If you make lasers DPS weapons, because they lack target disorientation effects and because they generate heat, they become utterly, completely, useless. Lasers are alpha weapons, and preventing that use makes them non-weapons. (or, at most, backup weapons for DPS ballistics)

If your response to that is "nerf the cooldown on DPS ballistics then" what you are really saying is "NERF ALL THE THINGS! i DIE TOO FAST DAMNIT!"

Edited by Widowmaker1981, 24 February 2016 - 02:40 AM.

[aaykeem]

Widowmaker1981, on 24 February 2016 - 02:38 AM, said:

If you make lasers DPS weapons, because they lack target disorientation effects and because they generate heat, they become utterly, completely, useless. Lasers are alpha weapons, and preventing that use makes them non-weapons. (or, at most, backup weapons for DPS ballistics)

If heat dissipation is bigger, you can't two-shot people anymore, but can put in the DPS for a longer period. Compared to dakka builds, you still don't need to constantly keep your reticle on the target and are free to torso twist, duck behind cover, etc. Also, there doesn't have to be such a big change in the max laser boat alpha, you can go for something in between what we have now (ridiculous) and ballistics-level alpha values.

Imho this game would reach the state of having an ideal combat system when (laser) boating doesn't have such a crippling edge over mix-weapon builds. As in, what you're saying there about lasers being backup for ballistics? That's not an objectively bad thing, it's just your opinion.

Edited by aaykeem, 24 February 2016 - 03:15 AM.

[Cerberias]

Cone of fire is a disgusting mechanic, random spread is a bane to competitive games everywhere, anything luck-based ruins skill. Keep that crap away.

[Widowmaker1981]

aaykeem, on 24 February 2016 - 03:13 AM, said:

If heat dissipation is bigger, you can't two-shot people anymore, but can put in the DPS for a longer period. Compared to dakka builds, you still don't need to constantly keep your reticle on the target and are free to torso twist, duck behind cover, etc. Also, there doesn't have to be such a big change in the max laser boat alpha, you can go for something in between what we have now (ridiculous) and ballistics-level alpha values.

Imho this game would reach the state of having an ideal combat system when (laser) boating doesn't have such a crippling edge over mix-weapon builds. As in, what you're saying there about lasers being backup for ballistics? That's not an objectively bad thing, it's just your opinion.

At the moment, lasers are a viable weapon by themselves. Making them not a viable weapon by themselves screws over mechs with no B hardpoints pretty badly..

You can argue that laser vomit is too strong, and in that case maybe nerf the stats on the lasers a bit. But they are BAD DPS weapons, due to lacking any form of CC effect to reduce incoming damage, and its misguided to think you can ever force laser users to chainfire their weapons. Lasers will just not be used if they cant be alphad, and there are a lot of mechs in the game that only have energy hardpoints. PPCs and lasers are not synergistic at all (both high heat, PPC snapfire advantages lost when firing lasers too) so what are mechs with only E hardpoints meant to do? Stop existing?

Mixed builds are perfectly viable NOW. Ballistic + Lasers, Lasers + missiles, PPCs + ACs, etc.

Laser vomit DOES NOT have a 'crippling edge' over every other type of build, its just the easiest to use because of hitscan and probably marginally too strong, so its super popular.

Personally, im in favour of adding reflecting and reactive armour to the game, so the metagame balances itself out - laser vomit too stronk, everyone using it? Everyone switches to reflective armour and laser vomit is now no longer strong. Ballistics too strong? Everyone switches to reactive armour.. in the end, the strongest builds become mixed lasers + ballistics (because those never come up against an enemy they do half dmg to), and its achieved WITHOUT having to completely ruin mechs that rely on energy vomit because they have no other choices... but people wouldnt like that, because it would mean THEY have to take responsibility for keeping themselves alive, not just whine to PGI to remove all the damage until they can walk out in front of 5 enemy mechs without dying.

Edited by Widowmaker1981, 24 February 2016 - 04:51 AM.