385 replies to this topic

[DivineEvil]

Reno Blade, on 23 February 2016 - 11:43 AM, said:

Remember how easy it was when PPCs were fast or when Gauss had no charge time?
Now that they are in a better place, the easier weapon are Lasers. They were always easy, but the PPCs were just easier (to deliver all damage to one spot).

PPCs were much faster back then and didn't suffered an insane Ghost Heat penalties, which made them superior to lasers indeed. Besides, there were very few energy-boat mechs, and the first one having plenty of space, good hardpoints and hitboxes, were Stalker, which is why it was used to abuse 6xPPC builds.

But in the end it, again, all comes down to excessive Heat Capacity, produced by combination of base 30 pool and bonuses diven by Heatsinks, while dissipation not only is not supported by any base values, but it's actually reduced by DHS nerfs. That nerf might have been pointed for making SHS more viable, but it only has made combat stagnant, without ever achieving that original goal.

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Do you remember when cERLL had 2 seconds burn time? Many outcries...

Increasing beam time alone would change so much on the battlefield as you would be much more vulnerable to return fire while trying to keep your beam on target.
This is also the reason why you see so many Pulse lasers and most people never touch cERLL at all.

I'm not set for how much more it should be increased, but I'd say roughly 20% for all lasers would be a pretty strong nerf.

I can understand how duration nerfs would perhaps achieve better gameplay, but I oppose it on behalf of natural tendency for people changing things to abuse. The heat management flaws does favors lasers, but all other weapons has a dependency on heat by their original design. While SRM and Ballistics would be naturally preferred with these changes, haven't suffering any nerf themselves, it's nothing but a treatment of sympthoms of a malady without treating a malady itself.

Karl Streiger, on 24 February 2016 - 12:05 AM, said:

Of course its heat - but the the weight spared by the simple upgrade from SHS towards DHS also helps as much. Think about the switch from Closed to Open Beta - heat and alpha striking wasn't the big problem in Closed Beta- ok 4PPC 1 Gauss Atlas were possible but also very rare - because you had 1 shot.
But with DHS those Mechs suddenly had the mass to add even more heatsinks and each of those sinks was much better.
~ the firepower and heat robustness of a CB Atlas was possible in a OB Catapult.
Nerfing the assaults because you can't even add enough heatsinks to be worth the additional weight and crits. More weapons are not an option either because of Ghost Heat. So heavys are very efficient simple by the heat mechanics.

They should allow a Mech to have both heatsinks - double is for dissipation, single is for heat cap - and we are done.
Mabye add a dissipation and heat capacity bonus based on size of the Mech.
Same for ES - it should come for a price...not in money but in durability.

In Closed Beta there were NO mechs with harpoint inflation, and almost no potential laserboats to talk about. You best bet with that were the HBK-4P, and it's laser battery was as easy to eliminate as snapping your fingers, and hitreg was awful enough to keep PPC superior with their PPD. As I've mentioned before, alpha-strike became a problem, when Stalker came up, with it's efficient hardpoints, hitboxes and cabability to boat PPC for powerful alpha-strikes, again based on inflated heat capacity. Instead of adressing that obvious flaw in the system, PGI implemented Ghost Heat - a biased, convoluted mechanic, that keep the gameplay irrational to this day.

Problem were never with heatsinks themselves. Heatsinks are just not as strong standalone equipment compared to additional/stronger weapons. Base heat cap creates a foundation for mentality, where no weapon is excessive enough to take heatsinks in its place, and where boating for alpha-strike peek-a-boo combat always outperforms multi-purpose builds. Because a player is provided with that resource by default, it's never a viable path to sacrifice a Large Laser for 5 heatsinks. Extra firepower is almost never excessive, and heatsinks are never substantial enough to spend tonnage for space. There's never a situation where you would use extra tonnage for SHS, because there's not a moment where DHS with their extra crit-space requirements are not enough to provide necessary heat management.

Widowmaker1981, on 24 February 2016 - 02:38 AM, said:

OK, so lets assume we have a system where the largest laser alpha you can pull off is 20 dmg. is that roughly what you are aiming for?

So, in that world, how can any laser mech compete with a quad UAC5 mech like the mauler? The Mauler now has the same alpha, zero heat generation (basically), massively more DPS, causes severe screenshake. Currently, a laser mech competes by having a larger alpha, allowing it to burst / hide. If you decrease maximum possible energy alphas to the point where they can be equaled by DPS ballistic alphas, you remove any reason to use anything other than DPS ballistics.

If you make lasers DPS weapons, because they lack target disorientation effects and because they generate heat, they become utterly, completely, useless. Lasers are alpha weapons, and preventing that use makes them non-weapons. (or, at most, backup weapons for DPS ballistics)

My aim is average alpha of 30 points, with heavier weapons providing lower alpha over longer range and pulse lasers providing higher alpha over shorter range.

Any energy mech should compete with ballistic and missile mechs as prescribed by features of weapons they use.

• Energy mechs spend less tonnage on their weapons, which allows them better heat management. The very reason, why I argue for heat management adjustment, and not particularly nerfing lasers, is that all weapons rely on heat management to a designed degree. Even now UAC boats can overheat, but base heat cap provides a barrage buffer, allowing these mechs to maintain fire continously with minimum 10 heatsinks installed. 4xUAC/5 mech spends 8 heat for a single barrage, which can be considered as zero heat generation only because that same mech has 60 heat capacity without spending a single ton on additional heatsinks.
  
• Energy mechs can spend that extra tonnage on speed, allowing them to reduce efficiency of ballistic and missile mechs by forcing them to lead a moving target, which requires convergence on distant objects and eliminates pin-point accuracy. Lasers would remain as accurate as today, because it's their fundamental feature, which is why I go against any suggestions for cone-of-fire or convergence changes.
  
• Energy mechs will be able (and encouraged) to combine several kinds of energy weapons for specific purpoces and range profiles, which means they'll be more flexible, than boating mechs. It would require a separate skillset to effectively use PPCs, standard and pulse lasers on the same mech. It's not that this potential doesn't exist right now, but it's that laser-vomiters are clearly superior to these multi-purpose builds, because they do not need any skillset aside from pressing a single button at approprite time.
  
• Energy mechs do not have ANY weak spots. They do not carry explosive ammunition, and their weapons hardly ever disabled by critical hits due to smaller size, and never jam. Again, a present advantage, that is often overlooked because of how laser-vomit is far superior to DPS builds just by nuking them. Lacking ammunition means, that energy mechs can out-endure any other mech for as long as their piloting and combat awareness would allow.

The point of adjusting heat management is not to eliminate alpha-strike or laser-vomit as a whole, but to reduce it to conventional efficiency level. Reduction of heat capacity will limit the amount of lasers fire per volley, but increased dissipation would allow shorter cool-off periods. Heat management as it exists now makes any combination of ballistic or missile weapon seem inferior to energy weapons of equal tonnage, by far.

Besides, Lasers are not alpha weapons, Missiles are. Lasers are precision weapons, and that's enough to keep them relevant. Lasers is what allows light-mechs to pincer trough Assault's back armor and deal critical damage to internals - there's no need to make them able to execute them with two alphas. Lasers is what allows to lay damage on distant targets, before they can respond - there's no need to give them freedom to burn target's armor into red zone with single volley on that range. Lasers cannot be avoided, like Ballistics can be, and do not have strict range limitations, like Missiles have.

All in all, Lasers have plently of positive features. Allowing them to make 50+ damage bursts is not something that keep them viable. It's something that makes them far superior to everything else and shapes gameplay environment of MWO. Competetive scene barely sees anything aside from laser-vomit, and Clan mechs are directly evaluated by how good a laser-vomit they can be. The only thing that beats a good laser-vomit mech at the moment, are mechs with borderline-obscene quirks for missiles or ballistics. When you have a laser-vomit mech with borderline-obscene quirks, you've got yourself a go-to, tier 1, best-of-the-best mech for all means and purposes.

Edited by DivineEvil, 24 February 2016 - 05:31 AM.

[aaykeem]

Widowmaker1981, on 24 February 2016 - 04:31 AM, said:

Laser vomit DOES NOT have a 'crippling edge' over every other type of build, its just the easiest to use because of hitscan and probably marginally too strong, so its super popular.

What does "probably marginally too strong" even mean? Is it just marginally stronger, or is it too strong?
Anyway, Divine Evil explains above why laser boats are the best weapon in MWO atm more eloquently than I can. You need to take into account more than just the weapons themselves.

Just as a clarification, I'm not saying ballistic builds are not viable. I use all kinds of builds, I like experimenting and mastering the different weapon types. But laser vomit builds atm are head and shoulder above everything else.

Edited by aaykeem, 24 February 2016 - 07:27 AM.

[Bloodweaver]

Widowmaker1981, on 24 February 2016 - 04:31 AM, said:

At the moment, lasers are a viable weapon by themselves. Making them not a viable weapon by themselves screws over mechs with no B hardpoints pretty badly..

You are not listening. The proposed lowering of MWO's infinitely-rising heat cap would not keep lasers from being viable weapons by themselves, because heat dissipation would be RAISED in turn. This same mechanic has been done before, in other MW games, where lasers were king. So it's a proven fact that a low-cap/high-dissipation heat system does not screw over laser builds.

[DivineEvil]

Widowmaker1981, on 24 February 2016 - 04:31 AM, said:

At the moment, lasers are a viable weapon by themselves. Making them not a viable weapon by themselves screws over mechs with no B hardpoints pretty badly..

You can argue that laser vomit is too strong, and in that case maybe nerf the stats on the lasers a bit. But they are BAD DPS weapons, due to lacking any form of CC effect to reduce incoming damage, and its misguided to think you can ever force laser users to chainfire their weapons. Lasers will just not be used if they cant be alphad, and there are a lot of mechs in the game that only have energy hardpoints. PPCs and lasers are not synergistic at all (both high heat, PPC snapfire advantages lost when firing lasers too) so what are mechs with only E hardpoints meant to do? Stop existing?

Mixed builds are perfectly viable NOW. Ballistic + Lasers, Lasers + missiles, PPCs + ACs, etc.

Laser vomit DOES NOT have a 'crippling edge' over every other type of build, its just the easiest to use because of hitscan and probably marginally too strong, so its super popular.

Lasers are indeed viable by themselves, but an ability to freely use them as laser-vomit is that makes them by far the best and easiest way to knock down any other loadout stereotypes. A sheer amount of damage, that Lasers can unload into a point, is even enough to make spreading damage and dead-shielding insufficient as means for migitating it. Lower-weight mechs do not possess enough armor to withstand it, and heavier-weight mechs do not have mobility for it.

Nobody here is arguing for making standalone lasers not viable. It's combining them into a laser-vomit super-weapon is what has to become unviable, or at least demanding. The reason why lasers are bad DPS weapons is because of heat, once again. MWO functions with 250%+ increased weapon cooldown rates, while heat dissipation is even lower than basic TT values. That makes virtually everything to be bad DPS weapons. Provided the respectable dissipation, lasers would be fine as such.

You can practically force players to do anything with appropriate changes. There's no exceptions.

Mixed builds are viable, but far inferior to laser-vomit, because laser-vomit is in fact has a crippling edge over everything else. It's not only easiest to use, but also requires least face-time to unleash instant-hit, pinpoint accurate damage burst, equal or even superior to SRMs, over longer range, repeatedly. And the problem here is not accuracy, or ease of use, but just the sheer reward/risk ratio and reliability by which it is capable of removing opponents power out of equation.

The only reason why Assault Dakka-Dakka builds are considered equal or superior to Assault laser-vomit, is because the heat management and mobility required for effective performance of these mechs is unobtainable. At this point your best bet is pulse-vomit Banshee, which can handle both factors substantially to wub away the side-torsos of those Ballistic opponents, but base heat cap of 30 points is no longer enough to sustain it long enough.

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Personally, im in favour of adding reflecting and reactive armour to the game, so the metagame balances itself out - laser vomit too stronk, everyone using it? Everyone switches to reflective armour and laser vomit is now no longer strong. Ballistics too strong? Everyone switches to reactive armour.. in the end, the strongest builds become mixed lasers + ballistics (because those never come up against an enemy they do half dmg to), and its achieved WITHOUT having to completely ruin mechs that rely on energy vomit because they have no other choices... but people wouldnt like that, because it would mean THEY have to take responsibility for keeping themselves alive, not just whine to PGI to remove all the damage until they can walk out in front of 5 enemy mechs without dying.

I'm in favor of new equipment and mechanics when there's appropriate time for it. Adding new things almost never solve issues with items available. MWO in it's present state has all the values and base system, that are enough to balance around content and tune the gameplay. Any additions for the sake of balance are redundant.

It's a question of proper understanding of the hierarchy of interconnected mechanics and values, and one's capacity to trace problems back to elements of that hierarchy, where the problems are originate from.

[Widowmaker1981]

aaykeem, on 24 February 2016 - 07:18 AM, said:

What does "probably marginally too strong" even mean? Is it just marginally stronger, or is it too strong?
Anyway, Divine Evil explains above why laser boats are the best weapon in MWO atm more eloquently than I can. You need to take into account more than just the weapons themselves.

Just as a clarification, I'm not saying ballistic builds are not viable. I use all kinds of builds, I like experimenting and mastering the different weapon types. But laser vomit builds atm are head and shoulder above everything else.

Just marginally stronger is too strong, if we are looking for balance.

And i disagree that laser vomit builds are head and shoulders above everything else. Yes, for medium and light mechs it absolutely is, because they dont have the tonnage to boat enough ACs to make them worth it and SRMs are a bit unreliable, but for heavies and especially assaults? Id go 1v1 vs an energy boating assault in a dakka mauler and expect to win easily.

[Widowmaker1981]

DivineEvil, on 24 February 2016 - 09:32 AM, said:

Lasers are indeed viable by themselves, but an ability to freely use them as laser-vomit is that makes them by far the best and easiest way to knock down any other loadout stereotypes. A sheer amount of damage, that Lasers can unload into a point, is even enough to make spreading damage and dead-shielding insufficient as means for migitating it. Lower-weight mechs do not possess enough armor to withstand it, and heavier-weight mechs do not have mobility for it.

Are you really saying heavier mechs cannot twist laser damage? You're wrong unless you are talking about some mechs with bad hitbxoes, and thats a problem with the mechs. And its not the 'best way' what do you think would win in a fight between a dakka whale and an energy vomit whale? Its not the energy whale.

DivineEvil, on 24 February 2016 - 09:32 AM, said:

Nobody here is arguing for making standalone lasers not viable. It's combining them into a laser-vomit super-weapon is what has to become unviable, or at least demanding. The reason why lasers are bad DPS weapons is because of heat, once again. MWO functions with 250%+ increased weapon cooldown rates, while heat dissipation is even lower than basic TT values. That makes virtually everything to be bad DPS weapons. Provided the respectable dissipation, lasers would be fine as such.

No, lasers are bad DPS weapons in MWO because they do nothing to hurt your targets ability to fire back at you. The objective of this game will ALWAYS be to put more damage on your target than you receive in return, and if you want to do well it has to be a LOT more, and therefore weapons that require you to stand in the open for long periods of time (dps weapons, by definition) must also come with some form of target suppression, or they are bad because your target will be able to freely return fire.

DivineEvil, on 24 February 2016 - 09:32 AM, said:

Mixed builds are viable, but far inferior to laser-vomit, because laser-vomit is in fact has a crippling edge over everything else. It's not only easiest to use, but also requires least face-time to unleash instant-hit, pinpoint accurate damage burst, equal or even superior to SRMs, over longer range, repeatedly. And the problem here is not accuracy, or ease of use, but just the sheer reward/risk ratio and reliability by which it is capable of removing opponents power out of equation.

The only reason why Assault Dakka-Dakka builds are considered equal or superior to Assault laser-vomit, is because the heat management and mobility required for effective performance of these mechs is unobtainable. At this point your best bet is pulse-vomit Banshee, which can handle both factors substantially to wub away the side-torsos of those Ballistic opponents, but base heat cap of 30 points is no longer enough to sustain it long enough.

So, at the moment, the absolute best assault energy boat in the game (the banshee) can, if played well, just about take on Dakka assaults. And you want to take that ability away. Like i said, all dakka, all day with a 30 point heat cap.

Also, WTF happens to PPCs in this heat nerfed world of yours? They can just *** right off i guess. 30 heat cap would mean you could literally never fire a pair of ERPPCs.

Also, lasers dont require the least facetime, thats what burntimes do. IS LPLs notwithstanding, they are fckin OP and need nerfing.

DivineEvil, on 24 February 2016 - 09:32 AM, said:

I'm in favor of new equipment and mechanics when there's appropriate time for it. Adding new things almost never solve issues with items available. MWO in it's present state has all the values and base system, that are enough to balance around content and tune the gameplay. Any additions for the sake of balance are redundant.

It's a question of proper understanding of the hierarchy of interconnected mechanics and values, and one's capacity to trace problems back to elements of that hierarchy, where the problems are originate from.

Why would giving people the option to equip armour that makes laser vomit useless not fix an issue where laser vomit is used too much? It self balances everything, because if EITHER ballistic or energy become too overused, people will naturally counter that by changing armour type - and it will in fact lead to people using the mixed builds you want to prevent them from being completely useless against anyone.

IMO, a 30 heat cap could only lead to one thing: a completely dominant ballistic meta. BTW, before pulse lasers were buffed, PPCs were nerfed and quirks came in lasers were considered BAD, and only mechs with multiple B hardpoints were considered interesting.

Edit: having read the TT rules for reflective and reactive armour, id also implement them completely differently and much more simply. Make both take some slots, have reactive armour reduce ballistic damage and reflective reduce laser damage. that simple. We already have plenty of counters for missiles (AMS, ECM, not being within 200m)

Edited by Widowmaker1981, 24 February 2016 - 11:15 AM.

[DivineEvil]

Widowmaker1981, on 24 February 2016 - 09:56 AM, said:

Are you really saying heavier mechs cannot twist laser damage? You're wrong unless you are talking about some mechs with bad hitbxoes, and thats a problem with the mechs. And its not the 'best way' what do you think would win in a fight between a dakka whale and an energy vomit whale? Its not the energy whale.

The issue is not the hitboxes of particular mechs as is, but the fact that these mech just cannot endure the laser-vomit to any respectable degree, as they can endure other weapon's fire. Sometimes you cannot instantly react to a laser burst while firing at another target, or you cannot react quirkly enough, or that barrage is coming from behind and instantly ruins your game for the rest of the match. For example, a single issue, that Dire Wolfs has in a way to be a formidable opponent it deserves to be, is that it's just so easy to reduce it's power by blowing away its Side Torso with a laser-vomit, whether manually or trough ammo explosion.

Like I've said, in a framework of heaviest assaults, laser-vomit is roughly as good as dakka, because crutch heat cap is no longer sufficient. Still, in a situation, where a laser-vomit has any cover, which it can use to peek from and deny a dakka-mech his DPS while cooling-off, the laser-vomit will win. It will fire two-three alphas into one of dakka-mech's side-torso, dakka-mech will loose half of it's firepower and at this point a laser-vomit could just wreck it openly.

Regardless, at anything lower than Assault class, laser-vomit is clear winner over all possible alternatives, hands down.

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No, lasers are bad DPS weapons in MWO because they do nothing to hurt your targets ability to fire back at you. The objective of this game will ALWAYS be to put more damage on your target than you receive in return, and if you want to do well it has to be a LOT more, and therefore weapons that require you to stand in the open for long periods of time (dps weapons, by definition) must also come with some form of target suppression, or they are bad because your target will be able to freely return fire.

I personally could care less for what my enemy fires at me, and vast majority of decent MWO players share the same outlook. The fact that Lasers do not produce screen shake or whatever is not an argument advocating Laser's means to "hurt your targets ability to fire back" by simply blowing off half of your mech before you can even respond.

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So, at the moment, the absolute best assault energy boat in the game (the banshee) can, if played well, just about take on Dakka assaults. And you want to take that ability away. Like i said, all dakka, all day with a 30 point heat cap.

I've never told anything about 30 point heat cap. Where are getting those numbers?

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Also, WTF happens to PPCs in this heat nerfed world of yours? They can just *** right off i guess. 30 heat cap would mean you could literally never fire a pair of ERPPCs.

My original suggestion is 2.0 DHS, 1.4 SHS heatsinks, with 1.0 base dissipation, but without base heat capacity. In that case, you'd need minimum 16 DHS to fire two ER-PPCs together, but it will take less than 8 seconds to cool-off from 100% heat level down to 0%, rather than over 20 seconds than it takes now, and you will be able to fire one ER-PPC without building any heat whatsoever. The Dakka or Missile boats with 10 DHS will only get 20 capacity to work with.

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Also, lasers dont require the least facetime, thats what burntimes do. IS LPLs notwithstanding, they are fckin OP and need nerfing.

It's irrevelant. You need to fire into an enemy about three times longer with ballistics to match the damage, that a laser-vomit can burst into you. Even if you've managed to equate the damage you've recieved, you've still lost, because the damage you've recieved is pin-pointed.

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Why would giving people the option to equip armour that makes laser vomit useless not fix an issue where laser vomit is used too much? It self balances everything, because if EITHER ballistic or energy become too overused, people will naturally counter that by changing armour type - and it will in fact lead to people using the mixed builds you want to prevent them from being completely useless against anyone.

It will involve even more values to balance around. Like I've said, it is redundant.

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BTW, before pulse lasers were buffed, PPCs were nerfed and quirks came in lasers were considered BAD, and only mechs with multiple B hardpoints were considered interesting.

Lasers were considered inferior because hitreg was broken. It's no longer the case. All of those notions are generally irrevelant, because they do not relate to heat management, that is broken for all weapons indiscriminately. Lasers are noted across my arguing lines simply because they benefit from that broken heat system the most, as heat is the only thing that work directly against them.

Edited by DivineEvil, 24 February 2016 - 11:37 AM.

[Aleksandr Sergeyevich Kerensky]

... Long range pinpoint has been nerfed over the past couple years, gauss, ppcs and even ac/5s have seen numerous changes- changes that reduced their effectiveness whem used together. This pushed people into a shorter range brawling type of combat.

Now you get laser vomit, pulses and srms because thats what works now.

If you nerf the high alpha form of combat- that leaves long range missles as the only form of combat left. This will force players to hide behind mountains and fight while facing rocks and cliffs. Can you imagine how boring that would be if 20 out if 24 people never saw each other visually, and just hid behind dirt while their spotters aquired targets for them.

This will be the death of mwo... If lurms become the only viable form of damage!

[Reno Blade]

I think the scenario where you can spam one ERPPC without building heat (because of high dissipation) is exactly what PGI wanted to avoid (the famous part Paul is always quoted for).
No mech build should ever be able to keep shooting without a break without overheating.

It might be usefull to reduce the cap by 5-10 points and/or to make all internal Heatsinks 1.0 instead of 2.0 and only external ones 2.0 instead of 1.4 ... but I think the dissipation should not be increased by much, or we will have a lot of possible builds, even ERPPC or 4ML+ builds that can keep constant ROF without problems
-> that makes the whole heat system useless for such builds.

If we increase beam times, it will mean the risk/reward of using lasers against other mechs will be shiftet from low/high to med/high (or something like this), as you will risk more enemy fire.
For the first vomit you would probably be still eating the full volley if you don't know that it's comming, but the player would still need to hold the target for longer.
This requires more concentration by the player, longer exposure and will be easier interupted by cover (e.g. shooting while running from cover to cover while the beam still fires when you reach the next cover also blocking part of your shot).

I'ts not perfect, but for lasers this should be enough.

In my perfect world, we had more reason for a single AC rather than boating it (e.g. requires assault mechs to actually use ACs effectively), same for any large weapon (eg. LL, PPC, LRM20)
But the only limit we currently have are some Ghost heat values and for many of the big weapons it works, but it does not work for 2-3 LP + 6MLaser vomit builds that put out 50 damage.
If you could only use 1 large and 4 Med lasers before GH, it would be inline with the other GH limits.

Nothing will be perfect, but these are pretty simple changes compared to something like linking Large and Med lasers GH to somehow only allow 1Large+4Med or 2Large+2Med or any other mechanic change (e.g. big change to dissipation)

[DivineEvil]

Reno Blade, on 24 February 2016 - 02:50 PM, said:

I think the scenario where you can spam one ERPPC without building heat (because of high dissipation) is exactly what PGI wanted to avoid (the famous part Paul is always quoted for).
No mech build should ever be able to keep shooting without a break without overheating.

First of all I want citations with a date. Second, if that's what PGI really stand for, then MWO will forever remain a peek-a-boo game without the potential for any dynamic combat, and even standard PPCs will never be used.

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It might be usefull to reduce the cap by 5-10 points and/or to make all internal Heatsinks 1.0 instead of 2.0 and only external ones 2.0 instead of 1.4 ... but I think the dissipation should not be increased by much, or we will have a lot of possible builds, even ERPPC or 4ML+ builds that can keep constant ROF without problems - that makes the whole heat system useless for such builds.

Neither ERPPC nor 4xML builds represent any substantial threat, so I fail to see how it is in any way detrimental to MWO's gameplay. Preventing these pathetic builds for being self-sufficient with DHS, while allowing insane laser-vomit builds dominating everything but the hottest maps, is plainly ridiculous.

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If we increase beam times, it will mean the risk/reward of using lasers against other mechs will be shiftet from low/high to med/high (or something like this), as you will risk more enemy fire.

For the first vomit you would probably be still eating the full volley if you don't know that it's comming, but the player would still need to hold the target for longer.
This requires more concentration by the player, longer exposure and will be easier interupted by cover (e.g. shooting while running from cover to cover while the beam still fires when you reach the next cover also blocking part of your shot).

I'm afraid that increase to beam times for heavier versions of laser might turn them disfunctional the same way most people see C-ERLL as such.

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In my perfect world, we had more reason for a single AC rather than boating it (e.g. requires assault mechs to actually use ACs effectively), same for any large weapon (eg. LL, PPC, LRM20)

But the only limit we currently have are some Ghost heat values and for many of the big weapons it works, but it does not work for 2-3 LP + 6MLaser vomit builds that put out 50 damage.
If you could only use 1 large and 4 Med lasers before GH, it would be inline with the other GH limits.

Again, Ghost Heat is essentialy performing the role, that reducing heat capacity would do just as well, without hidden values or bias against particular cases. It is completely unnecessary and has to be removed eventually, if PGI really want to turn it into cyber-sport discipline without making fools out of themselves.

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Nothing will be perfect, but these are pretty simple changes compared to something like linking Large and Med lasers GH to somehow only allow 1Large+4Med or 2Large+2Med or any other mechanic change (e.g. big change to dissipation)

Change to dissipation is as simple of a change as it could get.

Edited by DivineEvil, 24 February 2016 - 05:12 PM.

[Widowmaker1981]

DivineEvil, on 24 February 2016 - 11:29 AM, said:

I've never told anything about 30 point heat cap. Where are getting those numbers?

My original suggestion is 2.0 DHS, 1.4 SHS heatsinks, with 1.0 base dissipation, but without base heat capacity. In that case, you'd need minimum 16 DHS to fire two ER-PPCs together, but it will take less than 8 seconds to cool-off from 100% heat level down to 0%, rather than over 20 seconds than it takes now, and you will be able to fire one ER-PPC without building any heat whatsoever. The Dakka or Missile boats with 10 DHS will only get 20 capacity to work with.

Sorry, i assumed, like many, you wanted a 30 point heat cap. Instead it seems you want clans to auto win?

HGN-IIC or DW or Kodiak can easily run over 30 DHS, which would allow them a 72+ point heat cap (assuming skills stay as is, 60+ if not). Most DHS ive ever been able to fit on an IS mech with a viable build is 23 (and 20-21 is more normal for full on assault sized energy boats). BIIIIG heat cap discrepancy there. I suppose you could nerf C-DHS capacity to prevent that, but then you utterly destroy the lighter, more tonnage constrained clan mechs because they wont be able to mount enough DHS to actually fire weapons, lol. (and for those lighter mechs which don't run out of crit space, C-DHS are no better than IS-DHS in any way)

I guess what it comes down to in the end is you don't think that Poke-Alpha-Hide should be a valid playstyle, whereas i think it should be. So lets agree to disagree (and since i'm very very confident PGI wont make such a massive change to core gameplay i won't worry further, lol)

Edited by Widowmaker1981, 25 February 2016 - 01:26 AM.

[DivineEvil]

Widowmaker1981, on 25 February 2016 - 01:13 AM, said:

Sorry, i assumed, like many, you wanted a 30 point heat cap. Instead it seems you want clans to auto win?

HGN-IIC or DW or Kodiak can easily run over 30 DHS, which would allow them a 72+ point heat cap (assuming skills stay as is, 60+ if not). Most DHS ive ever been able to fit on an IS mech with a viable build is 23 (and 20-21 is more normal for full on assault sized energy boats). BIIIIG heat cap discrepancy there. I suppose you could nerf C-DHS capacity to prevent that, but then you utterly destroy the lighter, more tonnage constrained clan mechs because they wont be able to mount enough DHS to actually fire weapons, lol. (and for those lighter mechs which don't run out of crit space, C-DHS are no better than IS-DHS in any way)

Yes HGN-IIC, DW and KDK can run 30+ DHS, but the question is, what can they mount on top of that? Almost nothing. Even now these 30+ DHS allow them even more than 80 heat cap, even with capacity nerf for their heatsinks, so there's no breaking news on that front. That discrepancy exists right now. It's amusing that you're not realizing it.

The only solution to it is 2xCrit-slot DHS for Inner Sphere. Besides, Clans use much hotter weapons, so it's in fact reasonable to give them the ability to spend more tonnage on DHS to handle fewer weapons. Clan's ability to mount more DHS does not neglect the notion, that they still spending tonnage to do so. The problem does not lie with 30+ DHS builds, but with minimum DHS loadouts, where you do not have heat-management to talk about, yet are grated free capacity cookies by default. On the other hand, when you limiting your *** off by stuffing your mech full of DHS, you still do not get dissipation worth sh*t.

If you don't think I've made my homework for these suggestion, you're wrong. These values for heat adjustments are half-a-year old. I've run math on all sorts of mechs across the board, spending hours after hours in smurfy and spreadsheets, and there's no broken cases. At very least, not compared to what we have at present moment.

Quote

I guess what it comes down to in the end is you don't think that Poke-Alpha-Hide should be a valid playstyle, whereas i think it should be. So lets agree to disagree (and since i'm very very confident PGI wont make such a massive change to core gameplay i won't worry further, lol)

Look, I think poke-alpha-hide should be a valid playstyle, which currently it is not, because it by far overpowers everything but the heaviest ballistic boating, that requires double the tonnage just to challenge it.

In Battletech TT, there's a fixed 30 capacity and 2.0 DHS, which means you'd never need more than 15 DHS, as you will not achieve any additional performance out of them. Here in MWO, we have 200% increased mech durability and 250%+ increased weapon cooldowns. This alone suggests, that heat dissipation should account for that to allow dynamic combat. Instead of that we have double heat capacity and reduced dissipation. Capacity is not a parameter of a over-time output, its a foundational alpha-strike limit value. Dissipation is severely lacking, and capacity is inflated to compensate for it somehow, and this ridiculous Ghost heat has to be there to inefficiently account for select extreme cases, and there's absolutely no valid reason for why heat management has to remain in that misfigured state. It's not about lasers, or any other weapons - it's about a flaw in fundamental system, that distorts the handling of them all. The weapons themselves are just fine.

If you cannot see that situation as problematic, then indeed I cannot find an approach to continue this discussion. If you're ok with laser-vomit dominating the competetive scene forever, then there's no exchange to be made between us. Perhaps I've expected some deeper insight from a member of BMMU, a competetive team that participate in MRBC league and know exactly how laser-vomit dictates the choices.

Edited by DivineEvil, 25 February 2016 - 04:13 AM.

[Widowmaker1981]

DivineEvil, on 25 February 2016 - 04:09 AM, said:

Yes HGN-IIC, DW and KDK can run 30+ DHS, but the question is, what can they mount on top of that? Almost nothing. Even now these 30+ DHS allow them even more than 80 heat cap, even with capacity nerf for their heatsinks, so there's no breaking news on that front. That discrepancy exists right now. It's amusing that you're not realizing it.

The only solution to it is 2xCrit-slot DHS for Inner Sphere. Besides, Clans use much hotter weapons, so it's in fact reasonable to give them the ability to spend more tonnage on DHS to handle fewer weapons. Clan's ability to mount more DHS does not neglect the notion, that they still spending tonnage to do so. The problem does not lie with 30+ DHS builds, but with minimum DHS loadouts, where you do not have heat-management to talk about, yet are grated free capacity cookies by default. On the other hand, when you limiting your *** off by stuffing your mech full of DHS, you still do not get dissipation worth sh*t.

If you don't think I've made my homework for these suggestion, you're wrong. These values for heat adjustments are half-a-year old. I've run math on all sorts of mechs across the board, spending hours after hours in smurfy and spreadsheets, and there's no broken cases. At very least, not compared to what we have at present moment.

Look, I think poke-alpha-hide should be a valid playstyle, which currently it is not, because it by far overpowers everything but the heaviest ballistic boating, that requires double the tonnage just to challenge it.

In Battletech TT, there's a fixed 30 capacity and 2.0 DHS, which means you'd never need more than 15 DHS, as you will not achieve any additional performance out of them. Here in MWO, we have 200% increased mech durability and 250%+ increased weapon cooldowns. This alone suggests, that heat dissipation should account for that to allow dynamic combat. Instead of that we have double heat capacity and reduced dissipation. Capacity is not a parameter of a over-time output, its a foundational alpha-strike limit value. Dissipation is severely lacking, and capacity is inflated to compensate for it somehow, and this ridiculous Ghost heat has to be there to inefficiently account for select extreme cases, and there's absolutely no valid reason for why heat management has to remain in that misfigured state. It's not about lasers, or any other weapons - it's about a flaw in fundamental system, that distorts the handling of them all. The weapons themselves are just fine.

If you cannot see that situation as problematic, then indeed I cannot find an approach to continue this discussion. If you're ok with laser-vomit dominating the competetive scene forever, then there's no exchange to be made between us. Perhaps I've expected some deeper insight from a member of BMMU, a competetive team that participate in MRBC league and know exactly how laser-vomit dictates the choices.

Ack your posts are so long, replying is a pain.

I agree that laser vomit is currently too strong. However i strongly disagree with you that removing the base 30 heat cap is the way to go, and that in fact some slight nerfing of laser stats combined with buffing PPCs a bit is what is needed. Laser vomit has NOT always dominated and we have always had the same heat cap, and its nothing to do with hitreg, since lasers afaik have always had the best hitreg of any weapon barring streaks.

The discrepancy does NOT exist now to anything like the same extent, because the 50 base cap that every mech has means that the gap from the most heatcap to the least is FAR smaller than it would be with your system.

For an example of unintended issues, and there are many, In your system, what happens to the Adder? The absolute max heatsinks it can get is 15, so it would definitely shut down if it ever fired two ERPPCs at once, which it comes with stock. (yes, i know the Nova explodes if it alphas, too)

Did you really just say that no mech in TT needs more than 15 DHS? Huh... Im assuming ive misunderstood? What about the Hellstar (just an example)... it would explode if it fired all of its weapons in one turn with 15 DHS, but with the 30 that it actually comes with it is completely heat neutral... Thats why we have the system we have now, the 30 base cap accounts for the heatscale in TT and the DHSx2 (well, 1.1 or 1.4 cos nerfs) counts for the heatsinking during the turn. If you were to say we need heat effects for the last 30 points on the heatscale as in TT (ammo explosions, shut downs, that kinda thing) id completely agree with you.

Why does the problem lie with minimum 10 DHS loadouts if the problem is laser vomit? No laser vomiting mech would EVER run that few DHS, because it would shutdown super fast.. most are running 18-25 DHS.

Edited by Widowmaker1981, 25 February 2016 - 05:03 AM.

[DivineEvil]

Widowmaker1981, on 25 February 2016 - 04:58 AM, said:

Ack your posts are so long, replying is a pain.

Just don't quote everything if it's not convenient. My position is fairly consistent, so I'd not be troubled to see where you're coming from with your replies.

Quote

I agree that laser vomit is currently too strong. However i strongly disagree with you that removing the base 30 heat cap is the way to go, and that in fact some slight nerfing of laser stats combined with buffing PPCs a bit is what is needed. Laser vomit has NOT always dominated and we have always had the same heat cap, and its nothing to do with hitreg, since lasers afaik have always had the best hitreg of any weapon barring streaks.

Again, the heat management system flaw spans over all weapons to the degree at which these weapon rely on heat management by their functional design. Thus, nerfing lasers and buffing PPCs will only achieve the same meta shift to ballistics, that you've argued against, because fundamental issues with heat management applies to all weapons, and reducing the convenience or efficiency of some weapons would only make other weapons preferable within that broken framework.

I'm not sure about your actual time being in the game, but either way, prior to Clan implementation and some time after, hitreg was indeed much worse, than it is nowadays. Lasers were losing a significant deal of their accuracy and damage output to continuous raytracing, that couldn't register lasers reliably, and the more lasers you used, the more diminishing returns you had to deal with. SRMs had 3.0+ damage per missile simply to compensate for the flaws of hitreg, and ACs/PPCs, that didn't suffered from that HSR issues, dominated the battlefield.

Quote

The discrepancy does NOT exist now to anything like the same extent, because the 50 base cap that every mech has means that the gap from the most heatcap to the least is FAR smaller than it would be with your system.

Which only means, that applying additional heatsinks does not benefit a mech nearly as much as it should, and that it's always preferable to take another 1t laser, 1t ammo, 1t of JJets or utility equipment piece, rather than adding another heatsink, since a heatsinks does not worth the ton it occupies. It means, that mechs without proper heat management can achieve more, and mechs with strong heat management can achieve less, than they're expected to.

Quote

For an example of unintended issues, and there are many, In your system, what happens to the Adder? The absolute max heatsinks it can get is 15, so it would definitely shut down if it ever fired two ERPPCs at once, which it comes with stock. (yes, i know the Nova explodes if it alphas, too)

Skilling Adder up would prevent overheat. Being on a colder map would prevent overheat. On a hotter map it is reasonable to use chain-fire, and with my system, it would take roughly 7,5 seconds of downtime to cool-off from 100% heat down to 0%, and it would be capable of firing one ERPPC with reasonable build-up, so that it could at least protect itself. As of now, that Adder can fire two alphas without overheating, but after that is is out of comission for 20 seconds, in a 15 minute match.

Quote

Did you really just say that no mech in TT needs more than 15 DHS? Huh... Im assuming ive misunderstood? What about the Hellstar (just an example)... it would explode if it fired all of its weapons in one turn with 15 DHS, but with the 30 that it actually comes with it is completely heat neutral... Thats why we have the system we have now, the 30 base cap accounts for the heatscale in TT and the DHSx2 (well, 1.1 or 1.4 cos nerfs) counts for the heatsinking during the turn. If you were to say we need heat effects for the last 30 points on the heatscale as in TT (ammo explosions, shut downs, that kinda thing) id completely agree with you.

I'm just saying, that we need heat dissipation, that accounts for increased refire rates of all weapons. It doesn't, at least not in dissipation department. Because with the same Hellstar example you've provided, it would be able to fire all 4xERPPC without Ghost Heat, or two separate volleys of two with the Ghost Heat, but it will not be heat neutral, because it's 30 DHS will dissipate 20% less heat. So how awesome that mech will perform in a framework of double durability and 250% weapon cooldowns?

With current heat management, it will be able to fire one alpha, then maybe another single ERPPC, before getting stuck to dissipate built heat for ~15 seconds, or firing one ERPPC each 3 seconds.
With my values, it will be able to fire one alpha, then will have to pause merely for ~8,5 seconds. It will be capable of firing another ERPPC every ~2 seconds.
For me this is closer to what I'd expect spending more tonnage on heatsinks, than on weapons themselves.

Quote

Why does the problem lie with minimum 10 DHS loadouts if the problem is laser vomit? No laser vomiting mech would EVER run that few DHS, because it would shutdown super fast.. most are running 18-25 DHS.

What is the current meta choices in Light mechs?

Edited by DivineEvil, 25 February 2016 - 07:13 AM.

[IraqiWalker]

Archie4Strings, on 23 October 2015 - 04:01 AM, said:

I understand your point, but this is a computer game and in this way much more realistic: Shooting (f.E.) 6 Lasers, located on the same spot in the same arm, will all hit the same location of the enemy (perhaps with a radius equal to the distance of the laser weapons to each other). And not like: 1 Lasers hits the head, 3 hit the center torso and 2 hit the legs.
And it is really fine! I mean, Lasers need time to cause the full damage on one hitzone. if the target doesnt move to avoid this, well then... learn to be a better pilot.
And also:
The 2d6 mechanic was not made, to balance Laser Alphas. I think it is much more a result of finding an easy and fast way to locate the hit zones. And by the way: in TT, IS and Clans were not balanced, so we cannot compare our discussion to the TT.

One more thing that should be brought up here, is that all the hardpoints in lore were gimbaled, meaning they actually allowed for complete convergence.

The main reason we had the 2d6 almost RNG hit location system (there are so many ways to get around it, and ensure high PP damage), was because these were rolled to simulate the pilots twirling around, dodging incoming fire, and shooting at everything within 10 seconds.

[POOTYTANGASAUR]

There is no such thing as ttk being too short. Sub par players always whine about ttk because they die faster. 99% of shooter games offer weapons with 1 shot capabilities. Mwo already has longer ttk than most games and everyone wants it longer? If two good players 1v1 in equal mechs it takes about 20 seconds for one of them to die. That is enormous.

If ttk were any longer, then a single persons performance will be greatly devalued. If I was last man vs 4 mediums and I'm in a heavy, in the current state that is a possible win, if played right. But if ttk was longer there is basically no way I'd be able to out skill those players purely because of how long it'd take to kill them.

Again I'm sorry that not everyone is tier 1, but you not doing well doesn't mean the game is broken. Not saying all players that aren't tier 1 are bad, they may just not have the time or effort to put in to improve, or maybe don't care. But why try and mess with the balance of the game if you aren't in that top tier anyway? Tier 1s are all the people that play the most and play the best. They should have most say.

Tier 3-5s forum fighting over balance, is like minor league baseball players trying to get major league rules changed. It will affect others much more than you guys.

Edited by POOTYTANGASAUR, 25 February 2016 - 07:59 AM.

[Cy Mitchell]

I will admit that I have not read every single post in this thread.

I have seen lore cited to support Alphas. While it is true that it is possible for all Mechs to Alpha strike in lore it is not something that is easily repeatable like it is in MWO. An Alpha comes with extreme negative consequences in lore and that should be mirrored in MWO. It is more of an "Oh, $hit" move or a desperation winning blow.

Using an Alpha should result in extreme heat which threatens Mech shut down and impairs its ability to function normally until it cools down. Some of these impairments should be reduced engine performance which should cut movement speed and torso twist up to 50% for an extended period of time. Two Alphas in a row should result in shutdown without fail.

The problem, as I see it right now, is that there is not sufficient negative consequences to using multiple Alpha strikes. I have no issue with being subjected to one if I put myself in a position to receive one. If my opponent is skilled enough to hit me in the right place and kill me with one shot then so be it. However, if he goes for broke and does not kill me then the advantage should shift to me and he should have to suffer the consequences. What I have a major problem with is my opponent being able to fire 2-4 consecutive Alphas without suffering major negative repercussions. No where in lore is something like that supported and although MWOnline is a shooter, it is not Unreal Tournament, Halo, CS. etc. It is Mechwarrior/BattleTech and needs to play like it.

You want to Alpha strike me with your Meta Stormcrow laser boat? Fine, you better kill me and be out of sight of my team then because you will be dealing with 1/2 your normal speed and reduced torso twist for the next 10-15 seconds. Alpha me twice in a row? OK but then you stand there as a target for about 5-10 seconds.

Heat and more negative consequences due to overheating is the answer to controlling laservomit or any other form of Alpha abuse IMO.

Edited by Rampage, 25 February 2016 - 08:50 AM.

[Widowmaker1981]

DivineEvil, on 25 February 2016 - 06:38 AM, said:

Just don't quote everything if it's not convenient. My position is fairly consistent, so I'd not be troubled to see where you're coming from with your replies.

Again, the heat management system flaw spans over all weapons to the degree at which these weapon rely on heat management by their functional design. Thus, nerfing lasers and buffing PPCs will only achieve the same meta shift to ballistics, that you've argued against, because fundamental issues with heat management applies to all weapons, and reducing the convenience or efficiency of some weapons would only make other weapons preferable within that broken framework.

I'm not sure about your actual time being in the game, but either way, prior to Clan implementation and some time after, hitreg was indeed much worse, than it is nowadays. Lasers were losing a significant deal of their accuracy and damage output to continuous raytracing, that couldn't register lasers reliably, and the more lasers you used, the more diminishing returns you had to deal with. SRMs had 3.0+ damage per missile simply to compensate for the flaws of hitreg, and ACs/PPCs, that didn't suffered from that HSR issues, dominated the battlefield.

Which only means, that applying additional heatsinks does not benefit a mech nearly as much as it should, and that it's always preferable to take another 1t laser, 1t ammo, 1t of JJets or utility equipment piece, rather than adding another heatsink, since a heatsinks does not worth the ton it occupies. It means, that mechs without proper heat management can achieve more, and mechs with strong heat management can achieve less, than they're expected to.

Skilling Adder up would prevent overheat. Being on a colder map would prevent overheat. On a hotter map it is reasonable to use chain-fire, and with my system, it would take roughly 7,5 seconds of downtime to cool-off from 100% heat down to 0%, and it would be capable of firing one ERPPC with reasonable build-up, so that it could at least protect itself. As of now, that Adder can fire two alphas without overheating, but after that is is out of comission for 20 seconds, in a 15 minute match.

I'm just saying, that we need heat dissipation, that accounts for increased refire rates of all weapons. It doesn't, at least not in dissipation department. Because with the same Hellstar example you've provided, it would be able to fire all 4xERPPC without Ghost Heat, or two separate volleys of two with the Ghost Heat, but it will not be heat neutral, because it's 30 DHS will dissipate 20% less heat. So how awesome that mech will perform in a framework of double durability and 250% weapon cooldowns?

With current heat management, it will be able to fire one alpha, then maybe another single ERPPC, before getting stuck to dissipate built heat for ~15 seconds, or firing one ERPPC each 3 seconds.
With my values, it will be able to fire one alpha, then will have to pause merely for ~8,5 seconds. It will be capable of firing another ERPPC every ~2 seconds.
For me this is closer to what I'd expect spending more tonnage on heatsinks, than on weapons themselves.

What is the current meta choices in Light mechs?

OK, well i defintely never played during a time of 3 dmg SRMs, to my knowledge. When i started playing the HGN-733C was considered the best mech i think? Either that or the Dragon Slayer. At that time i definitely preferred AC5+PPC builds to lasers, and i was never much of a poptarter, and to be quite honest that would still be the case if it wasn't for the large buff to Pulse lasers along with the PPCs having their velocity stomped into the floor.

I can see your point about the effectiveness of heatsinks being increased being a good thing. Stacking a mech full of DHS doesn't do what it should (but it DOES still do something. Adding heatsinks has got a noticeable benefit) - but your system definitely causes Clan/IS balance issues without inventing a new item, which i don't think PGI will do. In the current system that imbalance still exists, as you say, but its much less game changing.

Light mechs.. well. I see your point, but i ask what other choice they have if they want to be relevant? Part of me doesn't care. i'm not a light pilot anyway (other than the adder, which plays more like a medium), and instinctively i think bigger should equal better. Tonnage is opportunity cost... but PGI wants light mechs to be relevant in their own right so...

To be honest, having thought about it, and with you specific system of heatcap = 2xDHS x skills (simply removing the 30 heat cap from the equation and buffing DHS to 2.0), the balance implications, and its effect on lights, are the only problems i have with it, because mechs that stack plenty of DHS would still have the capacity to alpha.

[Reno Blade]

POOTYTANGASAUR, on 25 February 2016 - 07:56 AM, said:

There is no such thing as ttk being too short. Sub par players always whine about ttk because they die faster. 99% of shooter games offer weapons with 1 shot capabilities. Mwo already has longer ttk than most games and everyone wants it longer? If two good players 1v1 in equal mechs it takes about 20 seconds for one of them to die. That is enormous.

If ttk were any longer, then a single persons performance will be greatly devalued. If I was last man vs 4 mediums and I'm in a heavy, in the current state that is a possible win, if played right. But if ttk was longer there is basically no way I'd be able to out skill those players purely because of how long it'd take to kill them.

Again I'm sorry that not everyone is tier 1, but you not doing well doesn't mean the game is broken. Not saying all players that aren't tier 1 are bad, they may just not have the time or effort to put in to improve, or maybe don't care. But why try and mess with the balance of the game if you aren't in that top tier anyway? Tier 1s are all the people that play the most and play the best. They should have most say.

Tier 3-5s forum fighting over balance, is like minor league baseball players trying to get major league rules changed. It will affect others much more than you guys.

While it's obvious that compared to typical FPS games, the TTK is long, it's balance is exponentially divided.
You are talking about 4 meds vs you in a Heavy, even with similar skill?
Now this shows that in your example you would have the heavy beeing 4x as strong as a single Medium mech if you can win this with similar skilled pilots.
Now tell me, why does it have to be such a big gap?
because you need to go big or go home!

No Centurion with AC20 and 2 ML is ever going to compete against your 50+ point Laser boat heavy, because you can cripple it in a single volley while he will need a lot longer, even with the 30 damage.
you will have done 100 damage against his 60 which is enough to kill a medium mech.

In no way is this fun in any way to play a game where you are 1 or 2-shot and can only shoot back once when the whole reward system relies on your damage done and kills/assists.

There needs to be a reason to use builds such as the Centurions compared to boats of 50+ damage per volley.

If you ever played medium 1vs1 or 2vs2 with skilled players who were all dealing less than 30 dmg per volley (or missed some damage like SRMs because of travel time of the projectiles), you could actually feel the trill of the battle, the struggle to protect your survive a critical torso while twisting and shielding and then returning fire...
I'ts MUCH more satisfying to win such drawn out battle and have 2-3 minutes of high adrenaline than these 20 seconds you feel enough.

If you would shoot target dummies, AI instead of players, one-shottting targets might be quite fun, but this is a multiplayer game and everyone in a match should AT LEAST have some chance to play rather than be dead in 20 sec and then quit.

[Widowmaker1981]

Reno Blade, on 25 February 2016 - 11:40 AM, said:

While it's obvious that compared to typical FPS games, the TTK is long, it's balance is exponentially divided.
You are talking about 4 meds vs you in a Heavy, even with similar skill?
Now this shows that in your example you would have the heavy beeing 4x as strong as a single Medium mech if you can win this with similar skilled pilots.
Now tell me, why does it have to be such a big gap?
because you need to go big or go home!

Hes not talking about similar skilled pilots (4Mv1H similar skills is no chance for the 1H). Hes saying that currently, if hes significantly better than those 4 mediums he might, if he played well, be able to take all four out, Whereas if TTK was increased a great deal from now it would be literally not possible due to the time taken to kill one being too long.

Edited by Widowmaker1981, 26 February 2016 - 12:40 AM.