29 replies to this topic

[Elizander]

What are your thoughts on the AC/10? Why should it be used in place of some other ballistic weapon or why would you prefer to use something else?

For me, given that this weapon is only 3 tons lighter than a Gauss Rifle (and we all know how much people love their Gauss Rifles) it's pretty hard for the AC/10 to compete for a slot on most of my mechs. In most cases that I'd plug one in, I'd probably would just have used a Gauss Rifle or 2 AC5s.

AC/10 vs Gauss Cons

• The projectile speed is less than 1/2 the speed of the Gauss Rifle projectile (950 m/s versus 2000 m/s).
  
• It produces 200% more heat than a Gauss Rifle (3 heat versus 1 heat).
  
• It only has 68% the range of a Gauss Rifle.
  
• Gauss ammo does not explode.

AC/10 vs Gauss Pros

• It has twice the ammo (20 shots versus 10) or it has 200 damage per ton of ammo compared to the Gauss Rifle's 150 damage per ton of ammo.
  
• It fires almost twice as fast as a Gauss Rifle (Gauss Rifle with charge time is at 4.75 seconds while the AC/10 CD is 2.5 seconds which gives it higher DPS (4 dps vs 3.16 dps)
  
• Gauss explodes (but honestly who cares?)

Half the speed and thrice the heat don't quite make up for the advantages that the AC/10 has over the Gauss Rifle. For me I think projectile speed is one of the bigger culprits that needs to be addressed.

Is there any reason for you to bring an AC/10? Why? Why not? What adjustments would make you decide to bring one?

[DemonicDonut]

It weighs 3 tons less as well. I use it occasionally, but not as often as gauss.

I think it should weigh the same as LBX10 (11 instead of 12) and wouldn't mind one less slot.

Edited by DemonicDonut, 24 October 2015 - 07:04 AM.

[Spleenslitta]

I rarelly use ballistics bigger than MG's. But when i do i prefer either the UAC5 or the gauss. (actually the gauss kinda grew on me this week...)
UAC5 may jam but it has better range, velocity and it's a little lighter. I just can't find a single really good reason to use the AC10.

DemonicDonut, on 24 October 2015 - 07:03 AM, said:

It weighs 3 tons less as well. I use it occasionally, but not as often as gauss.

I think it should weigh the same as LBX10 (11 instead of 12) and wouldn't mind one less slot.

I agree with him.

[Sagedabluemage]

well i use this weapon alot actaully so i dont think its a bad weapon per say. reasons why i use it goes as follows

1. i use it mostly on medium mechs (1 exception being my k2 where i use 2 of them with 4 mediums lasers)
2. i use it instead of an ac20 when podspace is an issue to the build im trying.
3. i use it when comboed with a quick brawling build an ac 10 shot at close range is better choice for me vs 2 ac 5's in combo in the weight department, also since i get some more tonnage out of the deal thats a plus as well.

but those are my reasons for using it mostly. i hope that could be help for the otherside of the disscusion.

[Leone]

I actually bring the AC 10.

~Leone.

[Helsbane]

All ballistics in MWO need to be set free of the shackles of TT. Weight, space, range, ammo per ton, etc. need to be altered to make them competitive with energy weapons.

[100mile]

A/C 10 is Brawler weapon with up close punch and you can bring 3 tons more ammo
Gauss Rifle is primarily a LR weapons with incredible punch at distance...I know you can use it up close I also know that the success rate up close is way less due to the delay...i watch Gauss lovers fight up close I know how many times you miss up close.
My main point is different weapon systems different uses...

[Skarlock]

The reason why is that for a few tons more and a bit more crit space you get an AC/20, and for a few tons less and a few crit slots less you could instead get an ultra AC/5. AC/10 just doesn't fit into any particular category of high alpha or high dps weapons. It's too slow to dps with and it's too plinky for its weight to be a good high alpha weapon. It's not particularly a bargain at its tonnage either considering many weapons, such as laser weapons and even PPCs offer more for less.

I think if the cooldown on AC/10s was lowered, assaults might find them attractive as a better dps option than UAC/5s considering they don't jam. Perhaps instead of cooldown, the velocity could be greatly increased to make it a favorable sniping weapon, like a gauss light that doesn't require charging, but does less damage.

AC/10 is bad because it's just not particularly good at anything, and doesn't have any really good synergy with any other weapons, other than another AC/10. It's really not a *bad* weapon, but it pales in comparison to so many other good weapons it falls behind. It needs at least one thing that it does better than other weapons to justify taking it since it is a substantial tonnage investment.

[Chadamir Fitzkrieg]

HBK-4H
This mech is my pride and joy, with quirks and cooldown module I fire ~1.25 seconds. and with 5 medium lasers for more pinpoint pain, I simply love this mech.

[TimePeriod]

I propose this:

AC2
Increase its RoF by 100%(double) and half the heat it generates.
Its supposed to fire fast and do it over long durations.

AC5
Increase weapon health by 25%.
Make the UAC5 a equipment (2 slots) requires to be attached to the the same hardpoint location as the AC5. Retains the 25% health upgrade.
Now its a tactical choice rather then a separate weapon.

UAC5
Removed from the game, see AC5

AC10
Increase the weapon health by 150%, increase internal structure by the same amount as the weapon is located in.
Its a tough reliable weapon which can take a ton of punishment and still remain operational.

AC20
Decrease its slot requirements by 3.
Yeah, you want that dirty slot filled don't you?

Gauss Rifle
Stays the same, it does not need any kind of improvements.


Final words
There! Now all autocannons have distinctive advantages.

Edited by TimePeriod, 24 October 2015 - 12:33 PM.

[stealthraccoon]

I like my AC10's!

Of course my Urbanmech uses them, it isn't out of place on my Raven and when I have to suffer through a drop with my Cataphract it gives me a bit more range and capacity over my beloved AC20.

Gauss is great and all, but the AC10 seems to work better for me when I need to shoot-n-scoot.

I really wish the LB10-X would get some attention - I really REALLY like shotguns on my mechs (that extra ton makes for a huge difference on smaller mechs).

[jss78]

Well, I'm no balance wiz, but I regularly run both AC10 and Gauss based Shadow Hawks, i.e. one of either as the main weapon. I feel the AC10 does OK in that comparison, and is perhaps a bit underrated.

If you factor in that you probably require one less ton of ammo, the AC10 saves you one crit slot and four tonnes, which is pretty major. One has the weapon blow up, the other the ammo, so that's pretty equal. With range module the AC10 optimal range is 495 m, which actually covers a lot of combat situations, and is less of a problem than you'd think. AC10 has more heat, but that heat is still pretty inconsequential.

I actually think AC5, UAC5, AC10 and Gauss, having run all of them, are all pretty well balanced vs. one another. The balance problems start when you compare the viability of any of these vs. energy weapons. And then you have the LB-10X and AC2 which are truly in a bad place.

Edited by jss78, 24 October 2015 - 01:55 PM.

[Nightshade24]

I feel like I am the only person who thinks ballistics are quite well ballanced minus some possible changes required to MG's, C MG's, Clan LBX, and minor changes to IS LBX...

I use AC 10's quite often... they are good weapons for the DPS and such and the ammo per ton is lovely on mechs short on tons.

[Koniving]

Elizander, on 24 October 2015 - 06:46 AM, said:

Is there any reason for you to bring an AC/10? Why? Why not? What adjustments would make you decide to bring one?

What better reason is there?

[Wildstreak]

I use the AC10 on both sides.

IS Example, Hunchback-4G versus -4H. With limited energy spots, the 4G needs the AC20 plus 3MLs for a decent close range alpha punch. Limitations include limited range, cooldown on the AC and engine size affecting speed.
In comparison, -4H can use the AC10 plus a larger amount of MLs for the same alpha, gets a mid-range weapon, faster firing and a better engine size giving better speed. Seen a simlar build used by someone on a Cicada well and tried the same on an Enforcer. It also works well with a LL for good mid-range punch.
I recently did one build of the Zeus-9S2 with an AC10, 2ML and 4 ASRM4, does good damage, better than when I tried Gauss.

On the Clan side, I have used the UAC10, single on Shadow Cat, dual on a Ebon and single on an Executioner. Scat with UAC10 and 2ERML makes a nice killer despite limited ammo, less fragile thna the Gauss build and sacrifices less armor or otherwise to make. While a meta Ebon build has a UAC20, if it jams, your big UAC is useless until it clears, on my dual if one jams, I still have another, rarely do both jam together and they have better range for full damage.
I use one as backup to 2LPLs on an EXE, works well.

It really depends on what Mech I build and what I want it to do.

Your point about:

Elizander, on 24 October 2015 - 06:46 AM, said:

Gauss explodes (but honestly who cares?)

is incorrect. If a ton of AC ammo explodes, it does half the damage of an exploding Gauss. I don't know if MWO does what TT does, as ammo shrinks, the explosion damage shrinks too. Point is still valid and add in Gauss has more crits so it is easier to hit when taking internals then does more damage to you making Gauss use very risky. By the time I might take damage on AC10 ammo, a good portion of it is gone so having more than 1 ton is not a risk, the risk of the higher damage Gauss explosion is always there even if you run out of ammo.
Look at some Heavy dual Gauss builds, JageMech, Cat-K2, Ebon. You either go for the side torsos (IS) due to XL needs making them fragile or the weapon itself (Clan) making the weaponless Mech useless.

You also missed AC10 and ammo is cheaper,that a number of AC10 builds give better alphas combined with other weapons and dual Gauss builds when seen tend to get targeted more.

I see no reason to give the AC10 any boosts.

Edited by Wildstreak, 24 October 2015 - 06:49 PM.

[Chados]

I like the AC10 for weight and damage/weight, plus ease of use vs. gauss rifles and ammo/ton. If I have slots I opt for AC20, but for slot limits AC10 over gauss every time.

[kosmos1214]

Leone, on 24 October 2015 - 08:35 AM, said:

I actually bring the AC 10.

~Leone.

as do i the 20 ammo per ton helped it a lot vs the lbx 10

[ice trey]

I do use this weapon, but there aren't many mechs which give quirks that benefit it.

The AC10 suffers from the same issue as the ac20 - in a game where the devs decided to forego the Tabletop's weapon spread patterns, a single AC20, two AC10s, and four AC5s all amount to the same amount of damage to the same spot (Disregarding firing rate and range). In tabletop, bigger-bore guns have the advantage of keeping more damage focused on one point, while smaller guns spread them out over multiple locations.

As far as things that could be done to beef up the floundering AC10, I think either nerfing the AC5s and Ultra 5s (Which see very, very frequent use), or boosting the projectile speed to make it a little more useful against faster moving targets. Alternately, a firing rate boost might be in order.

...but if you start playing with the slots and tonnage, all the stock configs get messed up. While there is... honestly no point in playing with canon stock configurations at this time, playing with slots and tonnage would burn any bridges regarding the possibilities of having "Stock only" game modes.

[Davegt27]

A year ago I a big Dakka fan

I don’t think I have used an AC IS or Clan in over a month

The AC10 is a worthless weapon like throwing tennis balls

[AlCapwnU2]

Personally, I am a bit of a fan of the AC10... at least more than most ppl. Although, I still rarely use it because it isn't often that a 20 or gauss or 2 5s isn't a better option. I mean extremely rarely.

When do I use the AC10? I like to use it on strange builds that are really tight on tonnage. There were 2 changes that contributed to my use of AC10s; you can now shoot 3 large lasers before ghost heat is applied and AC10 now has 5 extra rounds per ton of ammo allowing as little as 1 1/2 tons of ammo to get through a match. The 2 mechs that come to mind that I've abused this on are the TDR-5S and the Misery. If you want to do 3 large and a gauss on the 5S you must run an XL, I opted to run a 10 with a standard (270 i think). Many builds are great on the Misery, one of my recent favorites is 3 Large Pulse with an AC10 and a standard 295 (the build is very similar to the Dual PPC 20 build).

All that being said, I don't think the AC10 is very good. I don't recommend using the AC10 since most mechs have better options, but at least there are ways of taking advantage of the weapon such as the greedy builds I've described. At the end of the day, I think the AC10 is fun to use and it certainly isn't useless.